Illinois Democrat files measure to punish unvaccinated for 'clogging up healthcare system'

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By Greg Norman | Fox News


https://i.imgur.com/dsifDnfl.jpg

An Illinois Democrat who claims the unvaccinated are "clogging up the healthcare system" has proposed a bill that would force them to pay all of their medical expenses out of pocket if they become hospitalized with the coronavirus.

The measure, set forth by State Rep. Jonathan Carroll, comes alongside news that the average coronavirus hospitalization cost is now $24,033, according to data from the government-run Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services.

"The vaccine is proven to be the one thing that is stopping the severity of COVID-19, and we are seeing more variants popping up," Carroll told WCIA. "The experts are telling us, ‘This is now becoming a disease of the unvaccinated.’ The people that are choosing to get vaccinated are not the ones that are clogging up the healthcare system, it’s the ones that aren’t."

Carroll’s proposed bill states that "a person who is eligible to receive a COVID-19 vaccine and chooses not to be vaccinated shall pay for health care expenses out-of-pocket if the person becomes hospitalized because of COVID-19 symptoms."

https://i.imgur.com/xW6yqUsl.jpg

If passed into law, the changes wouldn’t affect Illinois residents until January 2023.

However, the bill would likely run into legal challenges and Carroll told the Chicago Sun-Times that it is a "starting point — we’ll see where the conversations go."

Illinois State Sen. Dan McConchie, a Republican, also told the newspaper he opposes "taking health care away from Illinoisans."

[DemonGeminiX]

The tolerant left.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

The tolerant left.

But it's the right that is dividing the country.....

[perrhaps]

What's the problem with this? Those who choose to remain unvaccinated maintain their "freedom of choice" without the rest of us paying for it.

I thought it was only the left who believed choices shouldn't have consequences.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

What's the problem with this? Those who choose to remain unvaccinated maintain their "freedom of choice" without the rest of us paying for it.

I thought it was only the left who believed choices shouldn't have consequences.

Then smokers should have to pay out of pocket for their cancer treatments. And fat people should pay out of pocket for any health issues related to their obesity. If you don't wear your seatbelt then you should pay out of pocket for any expenses you incur stemming from an accident you're involved in. And on and on and on....

[Griffin]

Or the fact that there are just as many vaccinated getting sick as unvaccinated because the vaccine doesn't do shit to prevent the disease or stop the spread, which is the whole purpose of a vaccine.

[Muddy]

Or the fact that there are just as many vaccinated getting sick as unvaccinated because the vaccine doesn't do shit to prevent the disease or stop the spread

Wrong.

[DemonGeminiX]

Wrong.

I'm not so sure. I'm hearing lots of chatter about breakthrough cases. These vaccines haven't been extensively tested like other vaccines have been, so despite company estimates we don't know for certain how effective they really are.

[Griffin]

I wish I could get everyone to take the same allergy medicine as me so it will start working again. :meh:

[perrhaps]

Then smokers should have to pay out of pocket for their cancer treatments. And fat people should pay out of pocket for any health issues related to their obesity. If you don't wear your seatbelt then you should pay out of pocket for any expenses you incur stemming from an accident you're involved in. And on and on and on....


I'm not so sure. I'm hearing lots of chatter about breakthrough cases. These vaccines haven't been extensively tested like other vaccines have been, so despite company estimates we don't know for certain how effective they really are.

Cigarette smokers are allowed to be surcharged by private health insurance companies under the ACA. I have absolutely no problem with allowing private insurance companies doing the same for obesity and other behavioral choices that drain our health care system. You pay a fine in PA if you're not wearing a seatbelt or your kids aren't properly secured during an accident; then your auto insurer can either surcharge you for future coverage, if not drop you entirely. Seems to me that anti-vaxxers don't want to put their money where their mouths are. And we all should remember that it was President Trump who signed the Executive Order providing free treatment (courtesy of Uncle Sam) for people who had the virus, largely because there was no vaccine for it. Let's provide free treatment for kids who catch the measles, polio etc, because Mommy and Daddy want the freedom of choice not to vaccinate little Ignatz and Morticia.

Please don't complain about making the unvaccinated pay at least a significant portion of their medical expenses for treatment of the virus now that they can be vaccinated for free. They've made a choice that they should live with.

My wife and I were among the first UPMC patients that were "Double Breakthroughs", i.e, we were vaccinated AND boostered when we caught Covid. Like the flu vaccines, this vaccine is not designed to totally prevent the virus, but it sure as hell reduces its severity. Because we were capable of spreading the virus, we were quarantined, but since I'm old enough to remember when there were no annual flu shots, I would say our symptoms (other than the odd temporary loss of taste and smell) were somewhere between a heavy cold and a mild case of the flu. Due to her prior case of Dengi(sic) Fever 10 years ago before there was a vaccine for it, my wife was recommended to receive an antibody infusion, but all in all, I'm REAL happy about being vaccinated, especially considering our age and some prior medical histories.

Bottom line here seems to be the same old song and dance. Nobody wants the Government in their lives until it individually benefits them

[lost in melb.]

Then smokers should have to pay out of pocket for their cancer treatments. And fat people should pay out of pocket for any health issues related to their obesity. If you don't wear your seatbelt then you should pay out of pocket for any expenses you incur stemming from an accident you're involved in. And on and on and on....

In a sense all these are true. In the public health system they will prioritise people willing to take better care of their health.

Not sure about seatbelts but if you are speeding you may be up for any damages you cause.

[DemonGeminiX]

Cigarette smokers are allowed to be surcharged by private health insurance companies under the ACA. I have absolutely no problem with allowing private insurance companies doing the same for obesity and other behavioral choices that drain our health care system. You pay a fine in PA if you're not wearing a seatbelt or your kids aren't properly secured during an accident; then your auto insurer can either surcharge you for future coverage, if not drop you entirely. Seems to me that anti-vaxxers don't want to put their money where their mouths are. And we all should remember that it was President Trump who signed the Executive Order providing free treatment (courtesy of Uncle Sam) for people who had the virus, largely because there was no vaccine for it. Let's provide free treatment for kids who catch the measles, polio etc, because Mommy and Daddy want the freedom of choice not to vaccinate little Ignatz and Morticia.

Please don't complain about making the unvaccinated pay at least a significant portion of their medical expenses for treatment of the virus now that they can be vaccinated for free. They've made a choice that they should live with.

My wife and I were among the first UPMC patients that were "Double Breakthroughs", i.e, we were vaccinated AND boostered when we caught Covid. Like the flu vaccines, this vaccine is not designed to totally prevent the virus, but it sure as hell reduces its severity. Because we were capable of spreading the virus, we were quarantined, but since I'm old enough to remember when there were no annual flu shots, I would say our symptoms (other than the odd temporary loss of taste and smell) were somewhere between a heavy cold and a mild case of the flu. Due to her prior case of Dengi(sic) Fever 10 years ago before there was a vaccine for it, my wife was recommended to receive an antibody infusion, but all in all, I'm REAL happy about being vaccinated, especially considering our age and some prior medical histories.

Bottom line here seems to be the same old song and dance. Nobody wants the Government in their lives until it individually benefits them

So how do you know it was the vaccine that helped you through and not your own immune system? Are you so certain you would have suffered more without the vaccines? How do you know it just wasn't a weaker strain of Covid that you caught? Look, I've got the vaccine, both doses, and I'm due for the booster next month, but my skepticism remains. And don't think I'm being all tin-foil hat paranoid about it. Remember, I'm a mathematician/computer scientist, and I rely on the scientific method just like any reasonable science person would. I'm not going to tell you that I'm well versed in virology or epidemiology; I'm not anything close to a research doctor; however, I will tell you that whenever my doctor orders bloodwork, he doesn't bother telling me what it says, he just hands me the print out of the results and lets me look it over for myself and waits for me to start the conversation about the numbers that are off. I've learned to hunt down information regarding the things that effect me over my 30 years in a wheelchair, because despite popular opinion, ignorance is not bliss when the consequences could be dire and/or fatal, yet preventable. I know how vaccines work, and I know why their testing is so extensive. They're asking us to take the word of a bunch of politicians (and yes, I'm including Fauci in that group, because that's what he is, and if you or anybody else wants to disagree with me on that point, then I've got a large plot of land on Mars that I can sell you for real cheap, pennies on the dollar, really). When have you known politicians to get it right the very first time when facing something new? I don't care if Trump spear-headed the vaccine blitz, it's long-term effects are still unclear. I've got the Moderna vax.. not but a week after my second dose, news articles came out saying that some people getting the Moderna could experience some kind of heart issues. I thought, "You've gotta be fucking kidding me!" So far, I'm ok, but what else is going to happen down the line? I'm paralyzed and have some problems because of my disability. I had a pretty rough year due to medical issues. Man, I don't need any more medical bullshit happening to me. I'm not going to just accept this on blind faith alone. If there's a way to know what's going to happen, I want to know and I want to know before the shit has a chance to tear my ass up. No offense, man, but I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Muddy]

So many words..

[DemonGeminiX]

So many words..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvh5fFeRX5Q

[Muddy]

It's the short attention span that gets me..

[Griffin]

https://img.ifunny.co/images/85f988644398159fcc9adab5ad73b3ee7c5123ffaeda92aec4 a1b4060c82c1f5_1.jpg

[perrhaps]

So how do you know it was the vaccine that helped you through and not your own immune system? Are you so certain you would have suffered more without the vaccines? How do you know it just wasn't a weaker strain of Covid that you caught? Look, I've got the vaccine, both doses, and I'm due for the booster next month, but my skepticism remains. And don't think I'm being all tin-foil hat paranoid about it. Remember, I'm a mathematician/computer scientist, and I rely on the scientific method just like any reasonable science person would. I'm not going to tell you that I'm well versed in virology or epidemiology; I'm not anything close to a research doctor; however, I will tell you that whenever my doctor orders bloodwork, he doesn't bother telling me what it says, he just hands me the print out of the results and lets me look it over for myself and waits for me to start the conversation about the numbers that are off. I've learned to hunt down information regarding the things that effect me over my 30 years in a wheelchair, because despite popular opinion, ignorance is not bliss when the consequences could be dire and/or fatal, yet preventable. I know how vaccines work, and I know why their testing is so extensive. They're asking us to take the word of a bunch of politicians (and yes, I'm including Fauci in that group, because that's what he is, and if you or anybody else wants to disagree with me on that point, then I've got a large plot of land on Mars that I can sell you for real cheap, pennies on the dollar, really). When have you known politicians to get it right the very first time when facing something new? I don't care if Trump spear-headed the vaccine blitz, it's long-term effects are still unclear. I've got the Moderna vax.. not but a week after my second dose, news articles came out saying that some people getting the Moderna could experience some kind of heart issues. I thought, "You've gotta be fucking kidding me!" So far, I'm ok, but what else is going to happen down the line? I'm paralyzed and have some problems because of my disability. I had a pretty rough year due to medical issues. Man, I don't need any more medical bullshit happening to me. I'm not going to just accept this on blind faith alone. If there's a way to know what's going to happen, I want to know and I want to know before the shit has a chance to tear my ass up. No offense, man, but I don't think that's unreasonable.

First, while we may often disagree, I'm a hundred percent on board with your belief that skepticism is healthy and not obstructive. I also sincerely appreciate the educational aspects of your reply to my post.
I also share your fatigue with Fauci's song-and-dance routine. He's gone from being shellshocked to being starstruck and the epitome of a career bureaucrat. I'm only surprised that he hasn't been announced as a contestant on next season's "Dancing With The Stars".

For what it's worth, we were told by our physician that we had the Delta variant, which was very prevalent in this area when we became ill. Without going into numbing detail about our prior health issues and our prescribed medications (Side note: One of the most annoying things about closing in on 70 is the baffling desire of friends and acquaintances to go into stupefying detail about their health without being prompted to do so), you're going to have to trust me when I say that our immune systems, particularly my wife's are in the range of slightly below average to average.

You are obviously well-educated, and it's apparent that, on balance, you feel that taking the vaccine was in your best interest. That speaks volumes to me.

Please continue to take care of yourself.

[lost in melb.]

A private post by an esteemed and very frustrated Medical Director and Professor (specialist for 40 years in immunology) at the end of his tether.


So, I wouldn't deny care for anybody if the person shows up and asks for care, but I'm sure the unvaxxed who get a bad case of Covid-19 are very uncomfortable with going to our hospitals and seeing the doctors and nurses who believe in science and promote the vaccines and, you know, have effective and authorized/approved medications such as monoclonal antibodies, Remdesivir, the soon to be approved oral antivirals molnupiravir and Paxlovid, dexamethasone, enoxaparin, etc., which all do work according to randomized controlled trials, rather than hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin that don't work except in the imagination of anti-vaxxers and in flawed and recalled (for data fraud) studies. So hospitals are literally filled with professionals they don't trust, that is, us, the people who actually went to medical school and nursing school and have been doing this for a living for decades.

So, since I'm very compassionate and don't want my patients to be uncomfortable from not trusting me and my nurses, here is what I propose:

We should set up tent hospitals for the unvaxxed who don't trust us. Instead of doctors and nurses, they'd have there people equipped with devices to do google searches for how to care for them, since they trust a google search more than the learned professionals. Except that maybe we could hire a couple of veterinarians to provide horse-intended doses of ivermectin given that they've all flocked to pharmacies and the human preparations are out of stock (a blackboard with the number to call for the Poison Control Center should be placed in a visible location inside the tent hospital, er, just in case). Borax baths would be available too as well as bleach and UV lights to go into their lungs.

The director of the tent hospital would be Joe Rogan.

I ran this idea by Aaron Rodgers and he got really enthusiastic about it, and even gave me a suggestion: we should hire Jake from State Farm to design the treatment protocol for the non-vaxxed "immunized."

[lost in melb.]

Another one:



Question[from a relentless anti-vaxxer]: If the vaccine isn't preventing the people in the hospital who have been vaccinated from getting it, then what makes you think the vaccine will be so likely to prevent the nurse who is attending those patients from getting it?

Reply: The vaccine only doesn't prevent people from getting it in your anti-vaxxer mind. The vaccine dramatically decreases the rate of infection, 6-11 fold in most studies. But sure, it doesn't prevent ALL cases and we never pretended it did. And then, it prevents these cases from becoming serious enough to get to the hospital, 16-fold in a recent Australian study. And again, sure, it doesn't prevent all cases from becoming serious (especially because this is a pre-selected population; those who are old and infirm and immunocompromised so they failed the vaccine, and/or were too far away from their basic vaccination so their antibodies faded). Your anti-vaxxer mind also doesn't want to acknowledge that a booster restores protection, bumping up neutralizing antibodies 25-fold. So, no, the vaccines are not failing. Finally, while the percentage of vaccinate people in hospitals increased due to the factors above, you continue to ignore the denominator. The breakthrough infections DIVIDED by the HUGE number of vaccinated people CONTINUES to represent a tiny percentage of the total, so yes, again, the vaccines did prevent infections in a HUGE number of people.

Do you want vaccines that are 100% protective? Move to La-La-land, all colorful with plenty of wishful thinking and reality-denial. Vaccines are not perfect and we have never pretended they were, but they are a HUGE help in this pandemic, and it's thanks to people like you that more people are not benefitting from their advantages. People who intentionally post a picture of a girl with chickenpox from the 60's, and pretend it's a 2021 picture of a reaction to Covid-19 vaccines.

Huge panic around Omicron... have you noticed that the first studies from South Africa, Germany, and Sweden showed that a booster yields sufficient neutralizing antibodies to zap even Omicron?

What to do of the fading immunity? It is true that humoral immunity (antibodies) fades after several months (thus the breakthrough infections) and it's a bit concerning that we need to boost, because repeated boosting may run into some problems. But there are two good sides, too. One, there is cellular immunity too, and that one seems to last longer. Two, we are gaining time, until the new and effective antivirals, especially Paxlovid that showed 89% efficacy, can be analyzed by the FDA and hopefully get an EUA. Once they become widely available, vaccines won't be as important, because if a person catches Covid, the person can then take 5 days of Paxlovid by the mouth at home, with an efficacy similar or better (the latter, in the case of immune-weak persons) than the vaccines. But we are not there yet so the vaccines remain our best tool. The thing is, Paxlovid works for all variants present and future because no coronavirus can replicate without the enzyme it inhibits; it's not something that mutates, unlike the spike protein target by the vaccines.

And also, both monoclonal antibodies and mRNA vaccines can be tweaked to adapt to new and antigenic-drifting variants like Omicron. The monoclonal antibodies are handy for people with weak immune systems who don't benefit much from vaccines.

OK, so, above, that's the treatment plan for those who believe in science; you know, rational and well-informed, non-misleading people.

[Griffin]

I guess that explains why so many educated and trained health professionals are willing to lose their jobs instead of taking the experimental vaccine.

[lost in melb.]

I guess that explains why so many educated and trained health professionals are willing to lose their jobs instead of taking the experimental vaccine.

Less than 1% = "so many"? How many actually resigned?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unvaccinated-workers-say-theyd-rather-quit-than-get-a-shot-but-data-suggest-otherwise/


And:

Advocate Aurora Health has terminated 440 employees who were not vaccinated for COVID-19. These employees, half of whom worked part time, represent less than 1% of the system's roughly 75,000 workers.

Albany Med has reportedly suspended 204 of its more than 11,000 employees as of Sept. 28. They have a week to comply before facing termination.

Baystate Health suspended 145 workers who missed an Oct. 1 deadline and ultimately fired 90 who remained noncompliant by a secondary Oct. 15 deadline. It employs nearly 12,000 people.

Beaumont Health has seen 70 vaccine-related resignations and has another 370 suspended employees who missed an Oct. 18 vaccination deadline, the system said. The suspended staff have until Nov. 16 to enter compliance before being terminated. Beaumont Health employs about 33,000 people, roughly 2,300 of whom the system said were granted an exemption to the vaccination mandate.

Centra Health lost 36 caregivers to its vaccination requirement. Five were terminated while 31 resigned voluntarily. The organization told press that the departures account for less than a percent of its total workforce and do not impact its staffing.

Central Maine Healthcare has seen 84 resignations and has 250 employees with no vaccination records as of Oct. 11. The provider said it will be temporarily suspending some services and has been in contact with the governor's office for support. The state's COVID-19 vaccination mandate for healthcare staff goes into effect at the end of October.

CHI Memorial said that less than 1% of its roughly 4,600 employees had resigned due to the vaccine requirement as of three days before it took effect.

ChristianaCare President and CEO Janice Nevin, M.D., wrote in a Sept. 27 blog post that the system's vaccination policy resulted in the loss of approximately 150 employees, the equivalent of fewer than 90 full-time employees. Fewer than 48 full-time equivalents provided direct patient care and fewer than 12 full-time equivalents were nurses. Nevin also noted that ChristianaCare, which employed 13,412 during 2020, had also hired more than 200 caregivers during the last month alone.

CoxHealth CEO and President Steve Edwards tweeted that 64 of his company's 12,500 employees (0.51%) chose not to be vaccinated and were discharged.

Crouse Hospital terminated 45 employees who did not meet the state's COVID-19 vaccine requirement. It employs roughly 3,100 people.

Erie County Medical Center had roughly 400 hospital staff who were unvaccinated by New York's Sept. 27 deadline and placed on leave. These employees represent about 5% of its total workforce and have forced the hospital to halt elective inpatient surgeries and cut back on other services.

Esperanza Health Centers, a five-clinic network of community health centers in Chicago, reportedly lost two of its 311 employees. Notably, Esperanza did not allow for religious exemptions.

Henry Ford Health System reported on Oct. 5 that about 400 employees had voluntarily resigned due to the vaccination requirement, representing about 1% of the system's total workforce. Another 1,900, about 6%, had received medical or religious exemptions. The Detroit-based provider also noted that new hires "are already offsetting those team members who resigned."

Hospital for Special Surgery in New York lost 18 out of 5,000 employees to vaccine resignations and terminations.

Houston Methodist, the first to announce a vaccine mandate, said it had 153 resignations or terminations among its roughly 26,000-person workforce.

Indiana University Health had 125 of its 35,800 employees resign from their jobs due to the vaccine requirement. A spokesperson told Fierce Healthcare on Sept. 23 that many were part-time workers and that the departures were the equivalent of 61 full-time employees.

Inova Health dropped 89 of its 20,000-person workforce due to noncompliance with its Sept.1 vaccination requirement.

Kaiser Permanente announced that "just over" 2,200 employees from its nationwide workforce of roughly 240,000 had not met its vaccine requirement and were placed on administrative leave as of Oct. 4. The nonprofit said that the tally is declining daily, as suspended employees have until Dec. 1 to enter compliance and return to work.

Lewis County Health System said it has seen 30 resignations as of Sept. 11 in the wake of announcing its vaccine mandate and as a result has been forced to pause maternal health services. At that time, 165 of the provider’s unvaccinated staff had not yet indicated whether they would comply or leave the single-hospital system. Lewis County Health System employs about 650 people and will see its mandate go into effect Sept. 27.

Maimonides Medical Center said it had 35 terminations tied to vaccination requirements. It employee 6,500, an additional 100 of which were claiming religious exemption as of mid-October.

MaineHealth representative Caroline Cornish told Fierce Healthcare that 58 out of its team of 23,000 had resigned and cited the vaccination requirement among their reasons, as of Sept. 24.

Med Center Health said it had fired 180 employees from its workforce of roughly 3,800 who had not been vaccinated by Sept. 1. It also highlighted the hiring of 178 vaccinated employees who would begin within a week of the firings.

Medical University of South Carolina Health fired five employees who had not met its June 30 vaccination or exemption deadline. It employs more than 17,000 people.

Mercy announced that it terminated about 2% of its 40,000-person workforce—roughly 800 people. These firings came after a 28-day unpaid suspension period for those who were not in compliance with the policy announced in July.

MetroHealth reportedly terminated four of its nearly 7,800 employees due to its vaccine mandate. Another 13 decided to retire or leave the organization.

Mohawk Valley Health System announced on Sept. 28 that New York's mandate led 180 employees, about 5% of the workforce, to separate from the system. This has increased its vacancy rate from 13.7% to 17.5%. The system also noted that other unvaccinated employees have been placed on unpaid leave and have until Oct. 9 to receive a vaccine and return to their position. Hospital services are still operating at both of the system's campuses, although service delays and other limitations will be likely going forward.

Mount Sinai Health System has reportedly lost 1% of its 42,000-person workforce who chose not to be vaccinated.

NYC Health + Hospitals has about 2,500 unvaccinated workers, about 5% of its 43,000 staff, that has not met the state's vaccination requirement.

NewYork-Presbyterian had "fewer than 250" team members who did not comply with a Sept. 22 vaccination mandate and "no longer work" at the organization, according to a statement provided to Fierce Healthcare. The system said it has achieved more than 99% compliance among its 48,000 employees and affiliated doctors and will see no interruptions in care due to the mandate.

Northern Light Health representative Karen Cashman told Fierce Healthcare that, as of Sept. 24, 89 employees had left the system due to its COVID-19 vaccine mandate. As of a Sept. 15 news conference, 91% of the system’s more than 12,000 employees had been vaccinated.

Northwell Health has reportedly fired about 1,400 one week after New York's vaccine mandate went into effect. This also includes at least two dozen employees at the manager level or above that did not receive COVID-19 vaccines by a prior internal deadline. It employed more than 76,000 workers.

Novant Health has fired more than 175 employees who were not compliant with its COVID-19 vaccination requirement. The system said Sept. 21 that it had initially suspended about 375 of its more than 35,000 total employees due to vaccination noncompliance. Nearly 200 of those employees became compliant during the five-day suspension period and avoided termination.

NYU Langone has reportedly terminated 75 employees out of its 40,000-person staff.

Olean General Hospital said it had seen 11 resignations ahead of New York’s Sept. 27 deadline for a first dose. As of Sept. 14, more than 250 of its 840 employees had not been vaccinated.

Richmond University Medical Center had a dozen resignations but did not disclose other terminations. It employs about 2,000 people.

Riverside Healthcare gave 40 employees who were not in compliance with its vaccination requirement after a two-week suspension the axe. It employs about 2,900 people.

RWJBarnabas Health has terminated 118 employees who did not meet its Oct. 15 vaccination deadline, with the remaining 99.7% of its 35,000-person workforce either receiving the vaccination or an exemption. The system had previously announced back in July the firing of six employees at the supervisor level who had not complied with a requirement for upper staff to be vaccinated by June 30.

Rush University Medical Center has nearly 100 employees in jeopardy of termination due to vaccination requirement noncompliance, as of an Oct. 20 report.

Samaritan Medical Center in New York said it terminated 28 employees who did not comply with the state's vaccine requirements after a two-week suspension. It employs over 2,000 people.

Southern Illinois Healthcare let go of 220 people who did not meet its vaccination requirement. It employs more than 3,700 according to its website.

St. Claire Regional Medical Center said it had fired 23 staff who had refused vaccination. A spokesperson reportedly said these employees were a combination of full-time, part-time and pro re nata employees and represented “less than 1%" of its total workforce.

St. Joseph's Health in Syracuse fired 78 of its 3,810 employees who did not meet New York's statewide vaccination deadline. They were among 122 who were suspended and given until Oct. 8 to receive a vaccine or be fired.

St. Luke's University Health Network said that 68 full-time employees and 87 part-time or per diem employees had decided against vaccination and resigned as of its Sept. 25 deadline. Additionally, 668 had received a medical exemption, religious exemption or a temporary deferral and will undergo weekly testing. St. Luke's employs about 17,000 people.

St. Peter's Health Partners has suspended 322 unvaccinated employees out of its 11,000-plus workforce, as of Sept. 28. Those employees have until Oct. 8 to become compliant.

Tidelands Health had just a single employee out of 2,010 who did not comply with its mandate and chose to resign.

Three Rivers Hospital, a rural facility in Eastern Washington, said that it let go of six out of its 129 employees, all of whom were per diem staff.

Truman Medical Centers/University Health saw 39 resignations among its workforce of roughly 5,000 due to a COVID-19 vaccination mandate.

UCHealth said that 119 out of its 26,500-person work did not receive COVID-19 vaccine or an exemption by the Colorado system's Oct. 1 deadline. A spokesperson said that those employees are welcome to reapply for their positions should they later receive the vaccine.

UNC Health has already seen 70 of its roughly 30,000 workers resign over a COVID-19 vaccination mandate originally scheduled for Sept. 21 but now delayed to Nov. 2. About 900 were still unvaccinated as of late September.

University of Vermont Health Network reported Sept. 28 that it had 30 mandate-related departures across three of its facilities—16 resignations at Alice Hyde Medical Center, 12 terminations at Champlain Valley Physicians Hospital and two resignations at Elizabethtown Community Hospital. These losses have compounded with a rash of non-vaccine-related resignations and hour reductions have led some of the system's hospitals to recruit travel nurses and postpone inpatient surgical procedures for at least one week.

Upstate University Hospital suspended or terminated 113 employees who did not meet New York's statewide deadline, as of a Sept. 30 report. Some of those workers will be able to return to their jobs if they receive a vaccine. The Syracuse provider employs more than 6,600 people.

Valley Health has terminated 72 workers who were unvaccinated by its Sept. 21 final deadline. It employs 6,300 staff.

Virtua Health said it had 120 of its 14,000 employees choose to resign over the five-hospital system's vaccine requirement. The South Jersey provider said that 98% of its remaining workforce is vaccinated, with the remainder receiving exemptions.

Yale New Haven Health System saw 94 departures among the 225 employees who had been suspended over its vaccination requirement. The Connecticut system employs more than 28,000 people, more than 700 of whom were granted exemptions and will see weekly testing.

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employees-have-hospitals-lost-to-vaccine-mandates-numbers-so-far





The overall effect of the vaccine mandates in health have been to dramatically boost vaccination rates. And so it should. While I don't necessarily support mandatory vaccination in other settings, I absolutely DO in health. The notion of sick, old and immune compromised people attending clinics and hospitals with unvaccinated staff attending them is patently absurd.

[lost in melb.]

What do you call the worst graduate from the poorest Medical School in the US?

Answer: Doctor

[Griffin]

Less than 1% eh... That's kinda like the death rate of the virus.

[lost in melb.]

Less than 1% eh... That's kinda like the death rate of the virus.

First: nice deflection.

But yes, we agree. Add older age group and comorbidities and the rates are higher.

And let's not forget 80% of the infected patients develop one or more long-term symptoms. And 10% moderate to severe long term symptoms. (compare that with the rates of long-term symptoms following Covid-19 vaccination. You might be surprised).

Question: if and when you get Corona and should you get seriously sick will you attend a hospital?

[Muddy]

:popcorn:

[Griffin]

Question: if and when you get Corona and should you get seriously sick will you attend a hospital?

Had it, it just didn't have a name at that time and I toughed it out at home.

[RBP]

The overall effect of the vaccine mandates in health have been to dramatically boost vaccination rates. And so it should. While I don't necessarily support mandatory vaccination in other settings, I absolutely DO in health. The notion of sick, old and immune compromised people attending clinics and hospitals with unvaccinated staff attending them is patently absurd.


Devil's advocate, but this question has been on my mind and confuses me. The vaccinated staff in these hospitals and other institutional settings can still contract the virus and still transmit the virus while having minimal symptoms with (as is the case with my current employment) no testing requirements for the vaccinated staff. But the unvaccinated staff is required to test and will likely show heavy enough symptoms to have to isolate and get treated if infected. From that perspective, is it possible that the vaccinated staff poses a higher risk to [quoting you] "old and immune compromised people attending clinics and hospitals" because they have may have no idea they are infected, not get tested, and continue to spread the virus?

I have not seen data to tell me that the transmission risk is reduced. And that is the piece of risk you assign solely to the unvaccinated in your post.

[lost in melb.]

vaccinated people clear the virus faster, with lower levels of virus overall, and have less time at peak viral load.

Within days of infection, the viral load in vaccinated people drops much more rapidly and therefore makes them much less likely to transmit and much less likely to be hospitalised or die.


Therefore, vaccinated people are, on average, likely to be less contagious.


https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/amp/

And there's your data

https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/handle/10044/1/90800

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/73/6/e1365/6188727

[lost in melb.]

I have not seen data to tell me that the transmission risk is reduced. And that is the piece of risk you assign solely to the unvaccinated in your post.

That was just a sample. There are plenty of free-access papers available on the net.

[lost in melb.]

Had it, it just didn't have a name at that time and I toughed it out at home.

Are you talking about your bout of flu years ago?

[lost in melb.]

Death is not the only stat that is important in understanding the impact of Covid-19, but also sequelae in survivors (that is, long-term symptoms of organ damage), which can be quite disabling and will be a growing economic burden (cost of treatment, lost of productivity) in the next decades.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/long-covid-patients-doctors-america-172004184.html


Here, a description by a patient:

"Bean has experienced a variety of symptoms which she said “really grinds you down” and is “much more flattening” than other forms of chronic illness. These include tachycardia, constant sweating, post-exertional malaise, digestive issues, brain fog, weakness in the hands, loss of fine motor skills, loss of taste and smell, insomnia, and costochondritis (inflammation of the cartilage that connects a rib to the sternum).

“When you have such profound exertion intolerance, there are days where you literally cannot do anything,” Bean said. “You can barely speak, you can't think, you can't enjoy things, you can't tolerate noises and stimuli, you can't even afford the energy required to care about the people you love. It's a profoundly dulling experience. And it's so tiring because everything is exertion: eating is exertion, responding to voicemails and emails is exertion, paying attention to my clients is exertion.”

---------------

The article also makes reference to a Lancet study:

"A study published in The Lancet that looked at long COVID patients from 56 different countries, including the U.S., found that 96% of the participants still had symptoms 90 days after testing positive, with the most common symptoms being fatigue, post-exertional malaise, and cognitive dysfunction. And, 45.2% had to reduce their work schedule as a result, while 22.3% had to stop working altogether."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589537021002996?via=ihub

Actually the study talks about 35 weeks of symptoms, which is 245 days.

[Muddy]

We were all exposed yesterday.. Kid that exposed us is vaxxed and has no symptoms (had to get tested for B-ball) so off of Rainbows post I would wager that vaxxed people are far more dangerous to the unvaxxed because we transmit and have no clue.

[lost in melb.]

We were all exposed yesterday.. Kid that exposed us is vaxxed and has no symptoms (had to get tested for B-ball) so off if Rainbows post I would wager that vaxxed people are far more dangerous to the unvaxxed because we transmit and have no clue.

I might get some more advice on this one.

A good thing you and your family are vaccinated.

[lost in melb.]

Devil's advocate, but this question has been on my mind and confuses me. The vaccinated staff in these hospitals and other institutional settings can still contract the virus and still transmit the virus while having minimal symptoms with (as is the case with my current employment) no testing requirements for the vaccinated staff. But the unvaccinated staff is required to test and will likely show heavy enough symptoms to have to isolate and get treated if infected. From that perspective, is it possible that the vaccinated staff poses a higher risk to [quoting you] "old and immune compromised people attending clinics and hospitals" because they have may have no idea they are infected, not get tested, and continue to spread the virus?

I have not seen data to tell me that the transmission risk is reduced. And that is the piece of risk you assign solely to the unvaccinated in your post.


We were all exposed yesterday.. Kid that exposed us is vaxxed and has no symptoms (had to get tested for B-ball) so off of Rainbows post I would wager that vaxxed people are far more dangerous to the unvaxxed because we transmit and have no clue.

I don't know if I will be able to answer your questions accurately. Not my field and too many variables. Plus what's in it for me to do all the work??

But I'm going to leave this chart here:

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup/backfile/Content_public/Journal/cid/73/6/10.1093_cid_ciab263/1/m_ciab263f0001.jpeg?Expires=1642054946&Signature=LFkPDw8u~3EOBu1V18Jdj3gcvTPK-8ZvSAJJmF7Ab-WKpRxmBZn7vehU2Kf-iyTuFD6xa9Ps0p1WqPxdBtukSHLJD6ibCG1~7rBtvjujAKWza7 Q~h5rCUva9DcttgOiPWmLkOMbHPOWQHSESt5MXNeyjYKdza34o ~ew1rc9-eS0eeGUTwCkF4UqTWcDpJ58gPazfCNVXWrGcZI4s0yeSdXiNkH D9eSBmqyHsS6ZlhnbHnC1xkAIpmmssK0ZRCY4SYgSMI-BCBg6JzBhGFOPqL~Ercr5dGdVT3Tf0FHcEX5SmW75tsSfLYcGE 96rM2vo-yFzCyO7~bWKAXfF86PqNmw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA

Note the bottom right graph. A log scale means that each increment is 10 times. I'll let you intelligent men work out the implications of that. Middle bar is mean, box is one standard deviation, bars are 2 SDs

Also, Covid is a notorious silent spreader. Meaning people catch it from others that don't have symptoms anyhow.

Finally, vaccinated people are likely to be more conscientious about their disease hygiene than unvaccinated.

Based on these 3 things, I would rather be in a hospital with vaccinated staff than unvaccinated staff, regardless of my vaccine status.

[Muddy]

I don't know if I will be able to answer your questions accurately. Not my field and too many variables. Plus what's in it for me to do all the work??

But I'm going to leave this chart here:

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup/backfile/Content_public/Journal/cid/73/6/10.1093_cid_ciab263/1/m_ciab263f0001.jpeg?Expires=1642054946&Signature=LFkPDw8u~3EOBu1V18Jdj3gcvTPK-8ZvSAJJmF7Ab-WKpRxmBZn7vehU2Kf-iyTuFD6xa9Ps0p1WqPxdBtukSHLJD6ibCG1~7rBtvjujAKWza7 Q~h5rCUva9DcttgOiPWmLkOMbHPOWQHSESt5MXNeyjYKdza34o ~ew1rc9-eS0eeGUTwCkF4UqTWcDpJ58gPazfCNVXWrGcZI4s0yeSdXiNkH D9eSBmqyHsS6ZlhnbHnC1xkAIpmmssK0ZRCY4SYgSMI-BCBg6JzBhGFOPqL~Ercr5dGdVT3Tf0FHcEX5SmW75tsSfLYcGE 96rM2vo-yFzCyO7~bWKAXfF86PqNmw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA

Note the bottom right graph. A log scale means that each increment is 10 times. I'll let you intelligent men work out the implications of that. Middle bar is mean, box is one standard deviation, bars are 2 SDs

Also, Covid is a notorious silent spreader. Meaning people catch it from others that don't have symptoms anyhow.

Finally, vaccinated people are likely to be more conscientious about their disease hygiene than unvaccinated.

Based on these 3 things, I would rather be in a hospital with vaccinated staff than unvaccinated staff, regardless of my vaccine status.

Too much mind power. I'm vaxxed, I'm not sweating it. Like I have always said, If someone feels the need to mask up and protect themselves, then they should do that.. :d

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Too much mind power. I'm vaxxed, I'm not sweating it. Like I have always said, If someone feels the need to mask up and protect themselves, then they should do that.. :d

Exactly the same here. Even got the booster shot last week. I couldn't care less what other people do. Get vaxxed, don't get vaxxed, whatever they want. Just don't tell me that after getting vaxxed that wearing a mask is STILL going to be a requirement. That should totally be left up to the individual, same with the decision to get vaxxed.

I'm kinda loving going out to the stores unmasked and seeing all the dirty looks I've been getting. Still no one has said anything to me, but if looks could kill.... :lol:

[Muddy]

Exactly the same here. Even got the booster shot last week. I couldn't care less what other people do. Get vaxxed, don't get vaxxed, whatever they want. Just don't tell me that after getting vaxxed that wearing a mask is STILL going to be a requirement. That should totally be left up to the individual, same with the decision to get vaxxed.

I'm kinda loving going out to the stores unmasked and seeing all the dirty looks I've been getting. Still no one has said anything to me, but if looks could kill.... :lol:

I wonder on my end.. If I have been exposed to the actual virus.. (Like I shook the kids hand and he was in the house for over an hour) Wouldn't that be like a booster of some form? My internal system should be well familiar with covid at this point.

[lost in melb.]

Ok, I have updates:

"Sorry my friend, but the proverbial s... has hit the fan.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.14.472719v1.full.pdf

This new Columbia University study released pre-print today, pre-peer-review (but I stand behind Dr. David Ho, he is a fine scientist), is nothing short of catastrophic in terms of antigenic drift for Omicron.

It's a near total drift. Dr. Ho and his assistants found virtually no efficacy of convalescent plasma, the 4 main vaccines (our 3 + AZ) including boosters, and 19 different monoclonal antibodies, and also spotted 4 additional mutations to the spike protein that hadn't been described before.

Of course there is still cellular immunity.

But it seems like our existing vaccines will do almost nothing against Omicron.

At Cornell University, in 4 days, a "very high" percentage of Omicron was found in 986 students who tested positive, and 97% of them were fully vaccinated, some boosted. They did not mention the exact number that they considered "very high" because the diagnosis was, I assume, by S-gene dropout in the PCR tests rather than by genomic sequencing, so they don't have the exact number, given that while an S-gene dropout is very common in Omicron and very rare in Delta, chances are overwhelming that most if not all cases with the S-gene dropout are indeed Omicron, but elegantly, given the lack of absolute certainty, they just said "very high."

To put it in perspective, 986 students in 4 days tested positive... while the previous 90 days PUT TOGETHER had 465 students positive.

In 4 freaking days Omicron caused twice as many infections as the total of the last 90 days! With almost all students being fully vaccinated!

And it's just the beginning.

[For those who don't know Virology/Immunology, an "S-gene dropout" refers to a PCR test that of its three genetic detectors, for the viral genes that codify for the S, the N2, and the E proteins, the test only detects N2 and E but not S, which is almost always the case for Omicron, but is almost never the case for Delta which shows positive in all three]"

[lost in melb.]

"On the good side, a study from a medical school in Hong Kong found that Omicron reproduces 70 times faster than Delta in the upper respiratory tract, but 10 times slower than Delta in the lungs. This may explain why it looks so much more infectious, but maybe milder.

With the exponential explosion of new cases, and the near-total antigenic drift (escape from vaccines, convalescent plasma, natural immunity, vaccine immunity, boosters, and monoclonal antibodies), this thing can't be stopped with the weapons we have at this time.

Our only hope is that it's milder. If it isn't, we're screwed.

Maybe not only hope. The oral antibodies, and cellular immunity, are also hopes.

But this is not looking good."

[lost in melb.]

Long story short. Early days, but existing vaccines may do almost nothing against Omicron.
So let's hope it's as mild as early data suggests.

[lost in melb.]

I might get some more advice on this one.


RBP and Muddy here is the reply: from one of the most esteemed immunologists in the world

"Omicron has profoundly changed the game. I don't know if you all understand by how much the game has changed. Yesterday Omicron was at 74% of all new US infections (going from 0.4% to 2.9% to 13% to 74% in a matter of days). In a few days it will be 100%. Omicron has the capacity to re-infect anybody who has had Covid-19 before (it seems like it couldn't care less for the anti-vaxxers' praised "natural immunity") and it has the capacity to infect the vaccinated too. Most world vaccines are useless against Omicron (all adenovirus vector vaccines, all whole inactivated virus vaccines, etc.). Apparently two doses of an mRNA vaccine plus one mRNA booster offer some measure of protection (so, vaccination is still worth having, but it isn't great to avoid Omicron infection - may be helpful to avoid severe illness).

Now, the question "can vaccinated people infect more because they don't know they got Covid?"- is largely an outdated question. Yes, Omicron will spread like wildfire, from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated and the unvaccinated, and from the vaccinated to the unvaccinated and the vaccinated. It doesn't really matter if one group is more of a danger to the other group because whoever doesn't get it one way, will easily get it some other way. With an R-naught of 12, we're in measles territory. Omicron is the second most infectious virus in the entire known history of humankind, only (barely) behind measles. There is no such thing as containing such virus, regardless of what measures will be in place, including vaccination with our current vaccines.

Now, here is what will likely happen: this thing spreads so fast, that it will reach an unbelievable peak relatively soon, but then it will fade relatively soon, too, running out of people to infect. In South Africa there are already signs that it is fading. While Omicron couldn't care less for natural immunity from past infections by any variant that was making the rounds before it, presumably people who get it will develop natural immunity to Omicron itself. And with its phenomenal infectiousness, it will bump out Delta and entirely substitute Delta. There will be no more Delta to go around. The game will be just an Omicron game. So, once the vast majority of the population gets it, it will fade.

So, there is now more solid evidence that Omicron is indeed milder than Delta. Some fragile patients will still get very sick with Omicron, but then, the FDA has just approved both oral antiviral pills, the one from Merck and the one from Pfizer. They are still scarce but once they get to more robust production, these pills will take care of the cases that might result in hospitalization or deaths (particularly Pfizer's, which is more efficacious and was approved more broadly - for anybody who is older than 12 and weights more than 88 pounds and has at least one condition that puts the person at high risk for severe Covid-19), effectively making of Covid-19 a case of the sniffles.

I think these two factors combined - milder Omicron displacing deadlier Delta, and oral antivirals that you take at home hitting the market - we'll see the end of the pandemic side of this disease, vaccines or not. Probably we'll still have a rough winter with quite overwhelmed healthcare systems, but the wave will pass, a lot of herd immunity will kick in, and the spring and summer will be a lot closer to normal.

The virus then will become endemic. We'll get annual updated shots to the latest variants, and those who will still catch it (or will refuse vaccination), if they get sick, they'll take the oral antivirals (which catch all variants present and future, because they target mechanisms that they all need for replication and those mechanisms are not subject to mutations). End of the story."

------------

I often berated people who prematurely celebrated the supposed end of the pandemic, because, as I said, the virus kept throwing curveballs at us, and kept resurfacing. But now I do believe that the two factors above, milder/highly infectious Omicron and oral antivirals, will make a real difference. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but I hope that I'm right.

[lost in melb.]

So, putting all this together: at an individual level Omicron is milder, however vaccinations won't make a big difference (not sure about boosters yet). So it's a level playing field.

At a societal level it may be bad news because even though individuals are less-likely to be hospitalized, many more will catch it. So if you work in medical, you're in for a potentially rough time next few months.

[RBP]

Thanks, Lost. I am still not sure how the "can vaccinated people infect more" is an outdated question. Not on the facts of transmission discussed above, but for fit-for-duty test that is based solely on vaccination status, sans a positive test result. Some healthcare units are operating with only the vacc'd and people are still getting covid. And often with no testing requirements... because they are vaccinated. Mind blowing circular logic.

And the guidelines keep changing... 14 days isolation, no 10, no 7, now 5? And the reasoning for the latest reduction in isolation days? Staff shortages. Wait, what?

Health care, first responders, etc being taken off the job, units that can't be run, but "follow the science" ends when the vaccinated test positive? By the information in your posts, those rules are the thing that is outdated and all those people should be put back to work with back pay for getting screwed over.

[Griffin]

doubt fauci, doubt science! [-(

[deebakes]

be careful sourcing biorxiv as papers, they have not been peer reviewed (even though there are flaws in that system too) and can contain almost anything. i could put something on biorxiv that australians are at a higher risk for covid infection because of ozone depletion due to uncontrolled chloroflourocarbon release from reagen-era trickle down economics results in more uv-damage to viral particles :shrug:

[Griffin]

so that's why they sound brain dead.:-k

[deebakes]

nope, that's the contamination of the prisoner gene pool by the indigenous population :lol:

[RBP]

be careful sourcing biorxiv as papers, they have not been peer reviewed (even though there are flaws in that system too) and can contain almost anything. i could put something on biorxiv that australians are at a higher risk for covid infection because of ozone depletion due to uncontrolled chloroflourocarbon release from reagen-era trickle down economics results in more uv-damage to viral particles :shrug:

:hills: