How dangerous is firing a gun into the air?

[redred]

Libyan rebels have celebrated their advance into Tripoli by firing guns in the air. How hazardous is this?
It is, unarguably, an emphatic way to display one's jubilation.
Shooting an automatic weapon into the sky to signal an occasion one welcomes is a popular practice in much of the world, as the footage of Libyan anti-Gaddafi forces seizing the main square of the capital city has demonstrated.
But it is a potentially fatal activity, which regularly results in the deaths of bystanders.
"These bullets go a long way up when they're fired," says ballistics expert David Dyson. "But you don't know where they're going to land - there's always a chance of them causing serious harm or death."
Examples of fatalities due to celebratory gunfire abound.
Three people in the Philippines died due to stray bullets fired to welcome the arrival of the new year 2011.
In 2010 a Turkish bridegroom killed three relatives when he fired an AK-47 at his own wedding. In the same year, Jordan's King Abdullah II ordered his country's authorities to clamp down on the practice after two people were killed and 13 more injured in one incident.
When the Iraqi football team defeated Vietnam in 2007's Asia Cup, three people were killed in Baghdad amid widespread gunshots as fans celebrated. Celebratory gunfire in Kuwait after the end of the Gulf War in 1991 was blamed for 20 deaths.
The practice is not restricted to Asia and the Middle East. A US study found that 118 people were treated for random "falling-bullet injuries" at one Los Angeles medical centre between 1985 and 1992, resulting in the deaths of 38.
Additionally, the government of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia also ran a poster campaign with the slogan "Bullets Are Not Greeting Cards - Celebrate Without Weapons". In 2005, Serbian authorities warned their citizens that "every bullet that is fired up must come down" ahead of New Year's Eve.
Studies suggest that, although the velocity of a falling bullet is lower than that of one which has just been fired, it is still sufficient to be fatal.
According to a 1962 study, .30 calibre rounds can reach terminal velocities of 300 feet (91m) per second as they fall. More recent research has indicated that 200 feet (61m) per second is enough to penetrate the skull.
As a result, a number of US states including California, Texas, Arizona and Ohio outlaw firing a gun into the air. In Minnesota, it is specifically forbidden in cemeteries.
Prof Peter Squires, an expert in gun crime and gun culture at the University of Brighton, says it is possible that the practice stems from cultural assumptions linking weapons with masculinity and ego.
But, additionally, he suggests that the common practice of firing 21-gun salutes or deploying firing parties at military funerals - albeit equipped with blanks - may have been somehow appropriated.
"There's an association with fireworks," he says. "Firing a gun is an effective way or making a loud bang. It's tied up with a state of carnivalesque abandon.
"But obviously what goes up must come down again."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14616491

[Hal-9000]

Geez, we had a story about someone doing that in the USA and the bullet coming down through a church roof and hurting someone.

I recall Kmracer telling tales of hitting the fields after drinking and doing that often :lol:

[redred]

i've always wondered how many do get hurt or die as they say what goes up must come down

[Loser]

It all comes down to the angle at which the bullet is fired.

For instance, a bullet traveling at terminal velocity*i.e straight down* will not kill you, but one that was fired at an angle, and is still carrying speed from when it left the barrel, can kill you.

[Deepsepia]

Subject of a Mythbusters episode

Myth: A bullet fired up can come down and kill you
How high would a bullet fly up?

Adam's idea was to correlate the density of ballistics gel with the density of air (Jamie: "Huh."). Adam figured that if they could see how far a bullet traveled in ballistics gel, they could use the difference in density to calculate the distance it would travel through air. Adam calculated that the ballistics gel is 650x more dense than air, so, according to his theory, if a bullet fired into ballistics gel goes 1ft, it would go 650 ft through air. At least that was the theory: they would have to go to the firing range with some blocks of ballistics gel to see if it would work.

They lined up several blocks of ballistics gel end-on-end at the South San Francisco Police Department firing range (last seen in the Catching a Bullet with Your Teeth myth). They quickly ran into a problem. The 9mm round went through three blocks of ballistics gel for a total distance of about 5ft. The much more powerful .03-06 only went one block in. This wasn't so surprising given the results of the Bulletproof Water myth, though they didn't seem to anticipate the same happening with ballistics gel. The .30-06 rounds travel much faster, so they a greater tendency to break up on impact. Jamie managed to flip a block of ballistics gel with a final shot, finally putting an end to this particular avenue of testing: the ballistics gel was not going to help them figure out how far a bullet would fly up.

Based on the failure of the ballistics gel experiment, they used a computer simulation program to calculate how high the bullets would travel up into the air. The calculations: *.03-6 10,000 ft 58 seconds

9mm 4,000 ft, 37 seconds

Terminal velocity of a falling bullet

Adam built an acrylic wind tunnel (much like the one in the Penny Drop myth). Air was shot up through the bottom and a bullet was dropped into the chamber. The terminal velocity was calculated based on the speed of the air needed to make the bullet stop falling. They figured that the terminal velocity was 100mph (150 ft/s). The wind tunnel also showed that the most stable falling position for the bullets was on their side.
Firing bullets at terminal velocity

The rigged up an air hose to an aluminum pipe to launch the bullets at terminal velocity (150 ft/s). Their first shot put a good dent in the metal door. Their next target would be a pig's head, just as soon as they got the amount of air pressure tuned correctly. A chronograph was used to measure the speed of the bullet and a solenoid valve was attached to the tube to control the air flow.

They fired bullets from the pipe into the pig's head and recorded it all on the high-speed camera. At 166 ft/s, the 9mm bullet bounced right off of the pig's head. The .30-06 bullet did only slightly better, piercing the skin and then bouncing off.

It was looking like this was going to be busted, but, as it turns out, there is an international expert on falling bullets working in nearby Stanford. The expert, Dr. David G Mohler, told them about a case in Menlo Park where a woman sitting in a lawn chair was struck in the leg by a bullet that was fired into the air 1 1/2 miles away during a 4th of July celebration. Mohler recovered the bullet from her leg and the police were able to match the ballistics to a shooter.

Mohler also told them about a case of an elderly man in Alameda who was talking to his wife underneath a plastic corrugated roof in his carport. His eyes rolled up and his wife thought he was having a stroke. When they got to the hospital they found out there was a bullet in his brain and, unfortunately, he died.

"I know for a fact that bullets fired at a distance, returning to Earth, with terminal velocity, have the ability to kill people." - Dr. Mohler

This contradicted their findings so far, so it was back to the drawing board.
Mohave Desert testing

They figured out what was different from their original assumptions: the bullets in Dr. Mohler's cases weren't fired straight up into the air. They were fired at an angle, which meant that they remained spin-stabilized and on a ballistics trajectory.

It was time for them to figure out what would happen with real bullets fired into the air. They went out to the Mohave Desert, where they setup a rig to fire straight up into the air. They planned to fire a bunch of bullets into the air and hopefully find at least one of the bullets where it landed. To maximize their odds, they stationed their crew in bulletproof listening posts.

They first fired bullets straight into the ground as a control:

BB: 3"
9mm: 6"
.30-06: 12"

Jamie fired a clip of 9mm bullets up into the air. 39 seconds later they heard the bullets hit the ground.

Adam: "I'm searching across the desert for a pencil-sized hole"

The first bullet that Adam found went only 2" into the ground and appeared to have hit the ground on it's side. The bullet had traveled 330ft horizontally. Jamie found another bullet hole almost identical to the first.

Jamie then fired the .30-06 rounds. Big problem: after 40 rounds fired into the air, they weren't able to hear any bullets land. The .30-06 rounds travel over twice as high, so they were simply traveling too far for them to find.

Adam brought out plan B: a balloon attached to an instrumented platform that could drop bullets remotely. The platform had a wireless video camera that fed an image of the platform, including the altitude gauge, down to Adam.

The bullets were dropped in a bundle from a height of 400 ft. The .03-06 made a 2" hole. The 9mm made a 2" hole as well, matching up perfectly with the actual 9mm bullet firing.

For the first time ever, they deemed this one busted, plausible, and confirmed. All of their tests, from the pig's head to the 9mm firing to the balloon, showed that a bullet fired perfectly straight up into the air is not lethal. However, it is also very difficult to shoot perfectly straight up into the air and, with the cases cited by Dr. Mohler, they have confirmed that people have died from bullets falling from the sky.
Vodka Myths III

[Hal-9000]

It all comes down to the angle at which the bullet is fired.

For instance, a bullet traveling at terminal velocity*i.e straight down* will not kill you, but one that was fired at an angle, and is still carrying speed from when it left the barrel, can kill you.


educate me please....why?

"a bullet traveling at terminal velocity*i.e straight down* will not kill you"

I'd still push a buddy in the path of that :lol:

[Hal-9000]

The story we had in the news featured an automatic or semi auto being shot up into the air in a field...the bullet supposedly went through a church roof and injured someone :-k

[DemonGeminiX]

educate me please....why?

"a bullet traveling at terminal velocity*i.e straight down* will not kill you"

I'd still push a buddy in the path of that :lol:

It's basic physics. Projectile motions in 2d. Given the angle at which an object is accelerated and the initial acceleration, the object is accelerated to a certain height, what is that max height (h)? How long does it take to reach that height (in time t)? At what time t does it hit the ground? How far has it traveled along the x-axis when it hits the ground? What's it's velocity when it hits the ground?

If you shoot a projectile straight up, disregarding air resistance (which would actually make it slow it's ascent much faster), or wind that would normally push it from a straight path, gravity will slow it down and will take over after the projectile hits it's max height. So, when it comes down, the accelerant that you used to fire the projectile straight up is null and void, it's no longer a factor. The bullet's in free fall. The acceleration becomes constant. The force becomes constant. Force = Mass x Acceleration. What's the mass of the bullet? I can't tell you what the mass of the bullet is. What's the acceleration? Acceleration is due to gravity. We call that 'g', and g=9.8 m/(s^2) (meters per second squared). The force that the projectile hits you on the way down after being shot straight up in the air is gonna be a lot less than the force it hits you if you were shot at point blank range.

I think that's right. That's just off the top of my head. I might need to review physics, I haven't looked at it in several years.

Anyway, I don't know if it won't kill you, it might, it might not, but I think you'd have a helluva better chance of surviving a bullet in free fall coming straight down at you than you would if a piano was dropped on your head from the same height. If nothing else, you could always move.

[Loser]

Bullets don't fall point down when they fall straight down. They tumble, just like a coin. When a bullet is fired directly up, or a few degrees from directly up, it has to battle earths gravity, slowing it, then when it falls it only reaches terminal velocity. Couple that with the fact that bullets tumble, and it's HIGHLY unlikely that it would kill you. Keep in mind though, that this is straight up or damn near straight up.

Now, when a bullet is fired at an angle, it carries with it it's muzzle velocity. That = death.

Image is worth a thousand words.
http://i53.tinypic.com/ny71iw.jpg

[Hal-9000]

thanks dudes..I learned something today :face:

like in Deep's post...how many people can fire a perfect shot straight up?
I always angle mine south, towards Colorado :dance:

[FBD]

you'd need an apparatus to fire "straight up" - I'm thinking something like the oilbubble on a level, a rounded top, transparent top-to-bottom... :lol: I actually have a golf green-cheat "level" just like that somebody gave me once. 'cept the bottom isnt transparent :lol:

[Hal-9000]

do you think the shell would still be hot on the return impact?

[Griffin]

http://www.ksla.com/story/5364332/child-hit-by-stray-bullet-at-arkansas-theme-park?nav=0RY5&redirected=true

[Loser]

Surprisingly, a .22 rimfire can carries miles, as in upwards of 3-4 miles if the winds right.

[Hal-9000]

http://www.ksla.com/story/5364332/child-hit-by-stray-bullet-at-arkansas-theme-park?nav=0RY5&redirected=true

and that's exactly why nimrods should be putting their shells into people they hate or targets...that's just too sad

[Hal-9000]

Surprisingly, a .22 rimfire can carries miles, as in upwards of 3-4 miles if the winds right.

the story I'm trying to remember was about a semi automatic and it traveled over a half mile if I recall correctly

[Loser]

the story I'm trying to remember was about a semi automatic and it traveled over a half mile if I recall correctly

It depends on bullet weight, velocity, and the angle at which it's fired.

A .22 LR Rimfire has like 1200 FPS muzzle velocity, and weighs only 40 grains. Compare that to a .45 acp, which has 900fps velocity and weighs 230 grains. If both are shot at the same angle, the .22 will travel much much further.

[Hal-9000]

because of the muzzle velocity or weight of the bullet? or both?

[Acid Trip]

If I drop one bullet and fire another simultaneously (and from the same height) they will both hit the ground at the exact same time. The velocity of the bullet doesn't mean squat since the pull of gravity is constant. My Physics teacher would be so proud.

[Griffin]

If I drop one bullet and fire another simultaneously (and from the same height) they will both hit the ground at the exact same time. The velocity of the bullet doesn't mean squat since the pull of gravity is constant. My Physics teacher would be so proud.

WRONG!
Terminal velocity varies directly with the ratio of weight to drag. More drag means a lower terminal velocity, while increased weight means a higher terminal velocity. An object moving downward with greater than terminal velocity (for example because it was affected by a downward force or it fell from a thinner part of the atmosphere or it changed shape) will slow until it reaches terminal velocity.

Assuming you were high enough to reach terminal velocity, the fired bullet would be miles ahead in seconds.

[Acid Trip]

WRONG!
Terminal velocity varies directly with the ratio of weight to drag. More drag means a lower terminal velocity, while increased weight means a higher terminal velocity. An object moving downward with greater than terminal velocity (for example because it was affected by a downward force or it fell from a thinner part of the atmosphere or it changed shape) will slow until it reaches terminal velocity.

Assuming you were high enough to reach terminal velocity, the fired bullet would be miles ahead in seconds.

Mythbusters confirmed what I said. The bullets landed within a few milliseconds of each other. In a windless, perfect environment it stands true.

The physics: http://scienceblogs.com/dotphysics/2009/10/mythbusters-bringing-on-the-physics-bullet-drop.php

Edit: Maybe you should re-read my post. I said nothing about dropping from an altitude with terminal velocity involved. The fired bulled being "miles ahead" doesn't mean a fucking thing.

[Hal-9000]

so AT in your example you have two guys standing together.One literally drops a bullet from his hand to the ground, while simultaneously the other guy shoots straight ahead?

and both bullets will hit the ground within milliseconds of each other?

[Acid Trip]

so AT in your example you have two guys standing together.One literally drops a bullet from his hand to the ground, while simultaneously the other guy shoots straight ahead?

and both bullets will hit the ground within milliseconds of each other?

Yes. The web link I sent describes all the Math and Physics involved better than I can. Horizontal velocity does not affect the force of gravity and therefor both objects would fall to the ground at the same rate. It's hard to imagine because the fired bullet goes such a long distance away compared to the one you dropped.

I wouldn't have said anything but I've actually done this experiment using ball bearings. One was fired using a spring mechanism with adjustable tension (fire it 10-20ft in 1 ft increments) and the dropped one fell threw a hole that opened at the same time the other was fired. It was really cool to see.

[Griffin]

Edit: Maybe you should re-read my post. I said nothing about dropping from an altitude with terminal velocity involved. The fired bulled being "miles ahead" doesn't mean a fucking thing.

Yep. Just reread it. You said nothing about one falling straight down and the other being shot to the side. So the whole fucking thing is a moot point.

[Hal-9000]

Yes. The web link I sent describes all the Math and Physics involved better than I can. Horizontal velocity does not affect the force of gravity and therefor both objects would fall to the ground at the same rate. It's hard to imagine because the fired bullet goes such a long distance away compared to the one you dropped.

I wouldn't have said anything but I've actually done this experiment using ball bearings. One was fired using a spring mechanism with adjustable tension (fire it 10-20ft in 1 ft increments) and the dropped one fell threw a hole that opened at the same time the other was fired. It was really cool to see.

Are you Jamie from Mythbusters? No secrets here man :lol:

[Hal-9000]

Yep. Just reread it. You said nothing about one falling straight down and the other being shot to the side. So the whole fucking thing is a moot point.

there was a girl in 7/11 today who had on a see through wife beater tshirt and she had some moot points let me tell you.....:droolingperv:

[Griffin]

are you saying she should have stayed mute (http://schw1zweidrei.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/fieldhockey01.jpg)?

[Godfather]

If I drop one bullet and fire another simultaneously (and from the same height) they will both hit the ground at the exact same time. The velocity of the bullet doesn't mean squat since the pull of gravity is constant. My Physics teacher would be so proud.

I remember a very simple test in 7th grade where a sling-like contraption fires two marbles at the same down. One goes straight forward, the other drops straight down. Both land at the same time (we could hear the simultaneous smack on the tile floor). It was a pretty damn shocking revelation at the time! Once you start learning the actual physics in high-school it loses its mysticism :lol:

Although I imagine with a bullet fired horizontally when not in a vacuum there would be several more variables that could make the physics more confusing.

As for the bullet thing... I've always understood that if you fire at any angle other than perfectly straight up, it remains dangerous. Obviously if it goes straight up, it loses its energy, stops, and comes back down only at terminal velocity which is no more dangerous than a pebble of equal weight falling. It seems to me a kid years and years ago died just playing in the yard, when some asshole randomly fired a round up in the city blocks away, and I just remember reading about the danger of firing in the sky in the paper.

[Hal-9000]

are you saying she should have stayed mute (http://schw1zweidrei.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/fieldhockey01.jpg)?

no I'm saying that she had on a see thru tshirt and nice tits :thumbsup: