Holy shit... Faster than the speed of light shown possible

[Godfather]

The world of physics was just turned on its head



Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Puzzling results from Cern, home of the LHC, have confounded physicists - because it appears subatomic particles have exceeded the speed of light.

Neutrinos sent through the ground from Cern toward the Gran Sasso laboratory 732km away seemed to show up a tiny fraction of a second early.

The result - which threatens to upend a century of physics - will be put online for scrutiny by other scientists.

In the meantime, the group says it is being very cautious about its claims.

"We tried to find all possible explanations for this," said report author Antonio Ereditato of the Opera collaboration.

"We wanted to find a mistake - trivial mistakes, more complicated mistakes, or nasty effects - and we didn't," he told BBC News.

"When you don't find anything, then you say 'Well, now I'm forced to go out and ask the community to scrutinise this.'"
Caught speeding?

The speed of light is the Universe's ultimate speed limit, and much of modern physics - as laid out in part by Albert Einstein in his special theory of relativity - depends on the idea that nothing can exceed it.

Thousands of experiments have been undertaken to measure it ever more precisely, and no result has ever spotted a particle breaking the limit.

But Dr Ereditato and his colleagues have been carrying out an experiment for the last three years that seems to suggest neutrinos have done just that.

Neutrinos come in a number of types, and have recently been seen to switch spontaneously from one type to another.

The team prepares a beam of just one type, muon neutrinos, sending them from Cern to an underground laboratory at Gran Sasso in Italy to see how many show up as a different type, tau neutrinos.

In the course of doing the experiments, the researchers noticed that the particles showed up a few billionths of a second sooner than light would over the same distance.

The team measured the travel times of neutrino bunches some 15,000 times, and have reached a level of statistical significance that in scientific circles would count as a formal discovery.

But the group understands that what are known as "systematic errors" could easily make an erroneous result look like a breaking of the ultimate speed limit, and that has motivated them to publish their measurements.

"My dream would be that another, independent experiment finds the same thing - then I would be relieved," Dr Ereditato said.

But for now, he explained, "we are not claiming things, we want just to be helped by the community in understanding our crazy result - because it is crazy".

"And of course the consequences can be very serious."

[PorkChopSandwiches]

"And of course the consequences can be very serious."


http://ianbockmon.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/dividebyzero.jpg

[Goofy]

That's actually pretty big scientific news :shock:

[Acid Trip]

Well that explains how aliens get here so quickly.


:tinfoil:

[Muddy]

A door has been opened..

[Softdreamer]

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-cern-faster-than-light-particle.html
Was actually just about to post this...

[Teh One Who Knocks]

http://i.imgur.com/OlaaK.jpg

[FBD]

:-k

of course I want to believe it, but...any prudent person will withhold judgment until more confirmation is obtained.


this article is too lacking on details, I need to go find the real deal [-(

[Hal-9000]

:-k

of course I want to believe it, but...any prudent person will withhold judgment until more confirmation is obtained.


this article is too lacking on details, I need to go find the real deal [-(

If it's true, it's like Goof mentions.....very big news.


We will need to rewrite books

[Teh One Who Knocks]

:-k

of course I want to believe it, but...any prudent person will withhold judgment until more confirmation is obtained.


this article is too lacking on details, I need to go find the real deal [-(


If it's true, it's like Goof mentions.....very big news.


We will need to rewrite books

http://i.imgur.com/OlaaK.jpg

[Hal-9000]

Someone wanna let Lance know that Star Trek in not real? Be gentle, talk slowly and don't give him too much info at once...


thanks :thumbsup:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Someone wanna let Lance know that Star Trek in not real? Be gentle, talk slowly and don't give him too much info at once...


thanks :thumbsup:

:overkill:

[Hal-9000]

:dance:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

:dance:

:slap:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

http://i.imgur.com/DL2Fe.jpg

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

[Shady]

This is very interesting. As the article says it may have just been some erroneous issues but it does seem to create an interesting question. Now I am no physicist and am probably just talking out of my ass here with a thought that is based in watching more science fiction that science fact.

They are trying to observe how many muon neutrinos change into tau neutrinos correct? These tricky little bastards can change their very essence at a moments notice and are not slowed down by normal matter in any way. In fact billions, if not trillions or more, of the particles have passed through me while writing this. They are basically trying to see if they let go 1000 yellow cars and tell them to drive across North America from one point to another. At the finish line some arrive red and not yellow any more. The question to be asking is what is happening when they change. My idea is that to change from one particle to a different particle it needs to happen on a quantum level. Now consider that in quantum physics a particle can be inside of a box at one point in space time and then perceived on the outside of the box the next instant without passing through the region of the box. What if these particles, while traveling at the speed of light, make a jump like this when they transform into a different particle and therefore there is a specified distance in space time in which the particle never traveled and then continued on at the speed of light.

[Hal-9000]

This is very interesting. As the article says it may have just been some erroneous issues but it does seem to create an interesting question. Now I am no physicist and am probably just talking out of my ass here with a thought that is based in watching more science fiction that science fact.

They are trying to observe how many muon neutrinos change into tau neutrinos correct? These tricky little bastards can change their very essence at a moments notice and are not slowed down by normal matter in any way. In fact billions, if not trillions or more, of the particles have passed through me while writing this. They are basically trying to see if they let go 1000 yellow cars and tell them to drive across North America from one point to another. At the finish line some arrive red and not yellow any more. The question to be asking is what is happening when they change. My idea is that to change from one particle to a different particle it needs to happen on a quantum level. Now consider that in quantum physics a particle can be inside of a box at one point in space time and then perceived on the outside of the box the next instant without passing through the region of the box. What if these particles, while traveling at the speed of light, make a jump like this when they transform into a different particle and therefore there is a specified distance in space time in which the particle never traveled and then continued on at the speed of light.


Whoa...heavy.

What if the particle changes as you mention, at the moment it exceeds the speed of light there are actually 2 particles...what was and what is, existing in the same space? It would be it's own parallel timeline converging on itself...



*looks for bong..*

[Shady]

*looks for bong..*

One of my favorite things to do is to ponder the universe while high when I'm trying to fall asleep. I find that my mind is at its most relaxed state of the day and it is opening to expansive thinking.


I should note to all you anti-pot people, I'm currently not high and haven't been for 4 1/2 months.

[Hal-9000]

4.5? Way to go dude, keep it up if that's your direction :thumbsup:
It allows you to think in different ways (and understand quantum physics) but it also hinders 'higher thinking' too.

If these mooks actually got a particle past the speed of light, many formulas and the basis for particle movement laws will have to be rewritten.

maybe my Grand Am will actually achieve 80 mph too :face:

[Shady]

Unfortunately Newtonian physics is a fucking bitch that you can never get around. Shit is infallible.

And I plan on going to see my friend mary in the future. Just for the time being though it is better that we are apart.

[Hal-9000]

my Grand Am abides by Newtonian physics :sad2:

[deebakes]

:wank:

[lost in melb.]

Photo: Neutrino stream: The Large Hadron Collider at the CERN lab under the Swiss-Italian border
www.cern.ch
http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/386646-3x2-700x467.jpg
Physicists have reported that sub-atomic particles called neutrinos can travel faster than light, a finding that, if verified, would blast a hole in Einstein's theory of relativity.

In experiments conducted between the European Centre for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Switzerland and a laboratory in Italy, the tiny particles were clocked at about 6 kilometres per second faster than the speed of light, the researchers said.

"This result comes as a complete surprise," said physicist Antonio Ereditato, spokesman for the experiment, known as OPERA. "We wanted to measure the speed of neutrinos, but we didn't expect to find anything special."

Scientists spent nearly six months "checking, testing, controlling and rechecking everything" before making an announcement, he said.

Researchers involved in the experiments were cautious in describing its implications, and called on physicists around the world to scrutinise their data.

But the findings, they said, could potentially reshape our understanding of the physical world.

"If this measurement is confirmed, it might change our view of physics," CERN research director Sergio Bertolucci said.

The view was echoed by several independent physicists.

In the experiments, scientists blasted a beam producing billions upon billions of neutrinos from CERN, which straddles the French-Swiss border near Geneva, to the Gran Sasso Laboratory 730 kilometres away in Italy.

Neutrinos are electrically neutral particles so small that only recently were they found to have mass.

"The neutrinos arrived 60 nanoseconds earlier than the 2.3 milliseconds taken by light," Professor Ereditato said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2912674-3x2-700x467.jpg The discovery could call Albert Einstein's theory of relativity into question

Under Albert Einstein's theory of special relativity a physical object cannot travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum.

The fact that the neutrinos were moving through matter - including a slice of Earth's crust - could not have caused them to accelerate, said French physicist Pierre Binetruy, who was not involved in the experiment but has reviewed the data.

"It might have slowed them down, but it certainly didn't make them go faster than the speed of light," he told French journalists.

He described the results as "altogether revolutionary," and said they will, if backed up, force physicists to go back to the blackboard.

"The theory of general relativity, the theory of special relativity - both are called into question," he said.

Alfons Weber, a neutrino expert who participated in a similar experiment in 2007 at the US Fermilab, agreed that the faster-than-light neutrinos could not be reconciled with current theories, but said the results needed to be duplicated elsewhere.

"There is still the possibility of a measurement error," he said by phone. "It would be too exciting to be true. That's why I'm cautious."

The earlier test, conducted over the same distance, also gave a slight edge to neutrinos in the race against light, but the results were within the experiment's margin of error, said Dr Weber, a reader in particle physics at Oxford University.

The CERN announcement was likely to prompt another round of more accurate tests in the US, he added.

Even if verified, however, the new findings would not entirely invalidate Einstein's brilliant insights, which has held sway for more than a century.

"The theory of special relativity will still be a good theory if you apply it where it is valid, but there will have to be some extensions or modifications," he said.

Newton's theory of gravity, he noted, still explains the movement of planets well enough to send missions into space, even if Einstein's theories proved it was not quite correct.

AFP

[Hal-9000]

:haha:

The repost police will be passing thru shortly, you're in trouble!

[Hal-9000]

nice accompanying pictures btw, much better than the first thread :thumbsup:

[lost in melb.]

Ooops, didn't check!

I actually posted mine first though - used neutrinos instead of optical fibre [-( :mrgreen:

[FBD]

This is very interesting. As the article says it may have just been some erroneous issues but it does seem to create an interesting question. Now I am no physicist and am probably just talking out of my ass here with a thought that is based in watching more science fiction that science fact.

They are trying to observe how many muon neutrinos change into tau neutrinos correct? These tricky little bastards can change their very essence at a moments notice and are not slowed down by normal matter in any way. In fact billions, if not trillions or more, of the particles have passed through me while writing this. They are basically trying to see if they let go 1000 yellow cars and tell them to drive across North America from one point to another. At the finish line some arrive red and not yellow any more. The question to be asking is what is happening when they change. My idea is that to change from one particle to a different particle it needs to happen on a quantum level. Now consider that in quantum physics a particle can be inside of a box at one point in space time and then perceived on the outside of the box the next instant without passing through the region of the box. What if these particles, while traveling at the speed of light, make a jump like this when they transform into a different particle and therefore there is a specified distance in space time in which the particle never traveled and then continued on at the speed of light.

it does happen on a small scale - neutrinos only interact via the weak force, which iirc is about 10^-19m...ish? put in a string theory perspective...

:-k

if you've ever seen the feynman-diagram like representations of string interactions, its indeed possible for a loop to obtain a resonance and temporarily "duck under the radar."


so the rate of type change of the neutrinos will represent the extent of which the neutrinos are having weak force interactions with...whatever its interacting with, along the way.


it is possible for them to have weak force interactions with some "normal" matter, since even normal matter can have weak force interactions.


it seems that you're referring to quantum tunneling though. curious if the tunnel would be the "under the radar" bit of the loop-diagram...and if it were under the radar, would that somehow indicate that the "coefficient of friction" might be requiring some rule changes in certain configurations...

[Softdreamer]

A man being interviewed on BBC today said - "it could turn out that these particles ARE traveling at sub-light speeds, but merely shortening the distance between the two points via what some would understand as a 'wormhole'."

I have faith in Einstein. He had awesome hair, therefore always speaks the truth.

[Acid Trip]

I should note to all you anti-pot people, I'm currently not high and haven't been for 4 1/2 months.

That's a damn shame my friend. People who think potheads are dumb don't have a fucking clue and never will.

[Acid Trip]

A man being interviewed on BBC today said - "it could turn out that these particles ARE traveling at sub-light speeds, but merely shortening the distance between the two points via what some would understand as a 'wormhole'."

I have faith in Einstein. He had awesome hair, therefore always speaks the truth.

An wormhole eh? It sounds like they are grasping at straws.

[fricnjay]

The idea that in an infinite universe that we are merely a speck in and understand even less of on a whole to make a claim that there is a over all encompassing "speed limit" is extraordinarily arrogant in my opinion. :-k

[Hal-9000]

the idea of an infinite universe bothers me and I find that idea arrogant

but I digress :lol:

[Acid Trip]

the idea of an infinite universe bothers me and I find that idea arrogant

but I digress :lol:

The Universe is expanding AND accelerating. The accelerating part is what I find really strange.

[fricnjay]

I only use the term infinite because we have no way of observing or measuring its size or volume.

[Hal-9000]

@ Jay...oh you're not the only one....like AT just mentioned, the science community feels that it is constantly expanding (which I understand) but I don't buy the infinite idea...

not a big deal, digression alert!!!

[DemonGeminiX]

I only use the term infinite because we have no way of observing or measuring its size or volume.

That's what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe#Size

If you don't trust wikipedia, I can find some articles for you.

[DemonGeminiX]

P.S., it's not arrogance for scientists to postulate a theory. Einstein's relativity has stood uncontested for over 100 years. There was no reason to suspect that it was wrong (and technically speaking, it still has yet to be PROVEN wrong), given that previous observable experiments seemed to confirm it and since we didn't have the means up until now to rigorously test it the way we are testing it today.

Reasonable theories stand until they fall. And until they fall, they're still just theories. That's the thing about science, they're always revising what they know based on what they discover. It's not static, it continually changes.

[fricnjay]

But that article even can be quoted as saying "the observable universe" and "the visible universe". Whats beyond that? On top of that the article is nothing more than an estimation using estimations on data that may, because of this article now be incorrect. This is my problem with science. Scientist are constantly making assumptions due to other assumptions and pass it off as fact. I love science and technology but the audacity and arrogance in these field is also sicking to me. Whats is so hard about saying "We think this, have no way of proving it but its what we think right now. These ideas are subject to change at anytime." ?

[fricnjay]

P.S., it's not arrogance for scientists to postulate a theory. Einstein's relativity has stood uncontested for over 100 years. There was no reason to suspect that it was wrong (and technically speaking, it still has yet to be PROVEN wrong), given that previous observable experiments seemed to confirm it and since we didn't have the means up until now to rigorously test it the way we are testing it today.

Reasonable theories stand until they fall. And until they fall, they're still just theories. That's the thing about science, they're always revising what they know based on what they discover. It's not static, it continually changes.

Again thats part of my problem with some of this. Its not really passed off as theory to the general population. And building theories upon untestable theories and again then passing it on to the general population in such a way as to say this is what we now know. Worded in a way to sound like is was fact is very misleading and is very irresponsible in my opinion.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is irritating for a field that acts as if it is the ultimate authority it is not very absolute.

[Hal-9000]

bothers me too Jay...theoretical science versus physical science.One is postulating theories based on observable data, the other is 'touching' the experiment complete with controls.

Hawking impressed me by recanting some of his black hole theory that had stood for years as the bible in that area...it was of course all based on observational theories only

[Muddy]

WWJD?

[Hal-9000]

dato :dance:

[fricnjay]

bothers me too Jay...theoretical science versus physical science.One is postulating theories based on observable data, the other is 'touching' the experiment complete with controls.

Hawking impressed me by recanting some of his black hole theory that had stood for years as the bible in that area...it was of course all based on observational theories only

And again I am not saying that theoretical science is not beneficial, I just feel the way it is often presented to the general public is misleading.

[Hugh_Janus]

people that know me have been aware of this "new discovery" for ages... they say I'm the fastest moving thing they've ever seen when I drop money, so fast infact that it apparently hits me on the back of my head on the way down :oops:

[Acid Trip]

bothers me too Jay...theoretical science versus physical science.One is postulating theories based on observable data, the other is 'touching' the experiment complete with controls.

Hawking impressed me by recanting some of his black hole theory that had stood for years as the bible in that area...it was of course all based on observational theories only

You know what bothers me? The man bewbs in your signature. Can we have the creepy puppy back?

[FBD]

But that article even can be quoted as saying "the observable universe" and "the visible universe". Whats beyond that? On top of that the article is nothing more than an estimation using estimations on data that may, because of this article now be incorrect. This is my problem with science. Scientist are constantly making assumptions due to other assumptions and pass it off as fact. I love science and technology but the audacity and arrogance in these field is also sicking to me. Whats is so hard about saying "We think this, have no way of proving it but its what we think right now. These ideas are subject to change at anytime." ?

well, we certainly dont know enough to realistically be able to ask that question yet, what is beyond the observable universe - you're going to have to come up with some real heady shit to figure that one out! :lol:

einstein is right - "in his own particular idiom" - the approximations are correct and we have decent knowledge of the limitations. which means it does a damn good job explaining some but not all phenomena.

experimental high energy physics is a tough game. you have to sit and think of new ways to attack problems - I was astounded at some of the things these guys have come up with over the years and it really takes a lot to interpret the results as well.

that's part of the problem with astrophysics - we dont have a lab for that :lol: so its observation, modeling, working out the math. some things you can say with a pretty high degree of certainty.

i read a paper already stating that this result is but a statistical error and the limits of measurement are not sufficient. uncertainty of measurement + systemic uncertainty = this result may still be and the particles have not traversed faster than light.

[Hal-9000]

You know what bothers me? The man bewbs in your signature. Can we have the creepy puppy back?

JoeyB gave me that personalized signature and no you can't have the creepy puppy back :hand:

[Softdreamer]

The Universe is expanding AND accelerating. The accelerating part is what I find really strange.

Consider this..
The universe is large, matter bends spacetime.. Maybe its become so warped, that its actually attracting itself from either end. They have show that the universe seems to be accelerating faster in some places than others..

[Hugh_Janus]

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9957/tachyons.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/tachyons.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Goofy]

:bazinga:

[Goofy]

If this turns out to be correct, would that make time travel possible? :-k

[Muddy]

If this turns out to be correct, would that make time travel possible? :-k

Yeah, for neutrinos.. :lol:

[FBD]

If this turns out to be correct, would that make time travel possible? :-k

Nope, its all just now, that's why it wont ever be possible ;) but there's ways around the speed limit.

No, I cant fully back that up, but that's the conclusions I came to :D

[Teh One Who Knocks]

If this turns out to be correct, would that make time travel possible? :-k

http://i.imgur.com/JhZY3.jpg

[FBD]

http://motls.blogspot.com/2011/09/potential-mistakes-in-opera-research.html

Almost all theoretical oriented physicists including myself seem to feel almost certain that there is a mistake in the Opera paper and the claimed violation of the relativistic speed limit will go away.

On the other hand, I think that many people who like technology etc. were impressed by the precision work that the Opera folks have demonstrated. It's a complex piece of work in which particle physicists became top metrologists – their work was endorsed by two teams of professional metrologists, too. In some sense, their measurement is also a pioneering work: as far as I know, the propagation of speed-of-light-in-the-vacuum signals between very distant places on Earth has never been tested against GPS metrology before so it shouldn't be shocking that one gets a 18-meter discrepancy when he tries it for the first time.

There's a lot of potential for errors. The measurement may be schematically represented as three steps: "measuring the distance", "bringing the proper universal time to CERN clocks", and "bringing the proper universal time to Gran Sasso clocks". So the mistakes may be divided into three basic groups:

* timing errors at CERN
* timing errors in Italy
* errors in the distance measurement

This is just a very rough, "geographic" separation of the possible mistakes. Various numbers in the calculations depend on each other and one should be more specific about the origin of the error, anyway.