Obama announces total Iraq troop withdrawal

[Teh One Who Knocks]

BEN FELLER, AP White House Correspondent


http://i.imgur.com/SYD73.jpg

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama on Friday declared an end to the Iraq war, one of the longest and most divisive conflicts in U.S. history, announcing that all American troops would be withdrawn from the country by year's end.

Obama's statement put an end to months of wrangling over whether the U.S. would maintain a force in Iraq beyond 2011. He never mentioned the tense and ultimately fruitless negotiations with Iraq over whether to keep several thousand U.S. forces there as a training force and a hedge against meddling from Iran or other outside forces.

Instead, Obama spoke of a promise kept, a new day for a self-reliant Iraq and a focus on building up the economy at home.

"I can report that, as promised, the rest of our troops in Iraq will come home by the end of the year," Obama said. "After nearly nine years, America's war in Iraq will be over."

Obama spoke after a private video conference with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, and he offered assurances that the two leaders agreed on the decision.

The U.S. military presence in Iraq stands at just under 40,000. All U.S. troops are to exit the country in accordance with a deal struck between the countries in 2008 when George W. Bush was president.

Obama, an opponent of the war from the start, took office and accelerated the end of the conflict. In August 2010, he declared the U.S. combat mission over.

"Over the next two months our troops in Iraq, tens of thousands of them, will pack up their gear and board convoys for the journey home," Obama said. "The last American soldier will cross the border out of Iraq with their heads held high, proud of their success and knowing that the American people stand united in our support for our troops."

More than 4,400 American military members have been killed since the U.S. and its allies invaded Iraq in March 2003.

The Associated Press first reported last week that the United States would not keep troops in Iraq past the year-end withdrawal deadline, except for some soldiers attached to the U.S. Embassy.

Denis McDonough, the White House's deputy national security adviser, said that in addition to the standard Marine security detail, the U.S. will also have 4,000 to 5,000 contractors to provide security for U.S. diplomats, including at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad and U.S. consulates in Basra and Erbil.

In recent months, Washington had been discussing with Iraqi leaders the possibility of several thousand American troops remaining to continue training Iraqi security forces.

Throughout the discussions, Iraqi leaders refused to give U.S. troops immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, and the Americans refused to stay without that guarantee.

Moreover, Iraq's leadership has been split on whether it wanted American forces to stay.

When the 2008 agreement requiring all U.S. forces to leave Iraq was passed, many U.S. officials assumed it would inevitably be renegotiated so that Americans could stay longer.

The U.S. said repeatedly this year it would entertain an offer from the Iraqis to have a small force stay behind, and the Iraqis said they would like American military help. But as the year wore on and the number of American troops that Washington was suggesting could stay behind dropped, it became increasingly clear that a U.S. troop presence was not a sure thing.

The issue of legal protection for the Americans was the deal-breaker.

But administration officials said they feel confident that the Iraqi security forces are well prepared to take the lead in their country. McDonough said assessment after assessment of the preparedness of Iraqi forces concluded that "these guys are ready; these guys are capable; these guys are proven; importantly, they're proven because they've been tested in a lot of the kinds of threats that they're going to see going forward.

"So we feel very good about that."

Pulling troops out by the end of this year allows both al-Maliki and Obama to claim victory.

Obama kept a campaign promise to end the war, and al-Maliki will have ended the American presence and restored Iraqi sovereignty.

The president used the war statement to once again turn attention back to the economy, the domestic concern that is expected to determine whether he wins re-election next year.

"After a decade of war the nation that we need to build and the nation that we will build is our own, an America that sees its economic strength restored just as we've restored our leadership around the globe."

[JoeyB]

More than 4,400 American military members have been killed since the U.S. and its allies invaded Iraq in March 2003.


As always, no mention of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead, or the damage we did to the infrastructure of that country. Nope, just our dead, it's all that matters.

People wonder why we have wars...

[Acid Trip]

Iraqi leaders refused to give U.S. troops immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, and the Americans refused to stay without that guarantee.


Obama isn't pulling out by choice. That one sentence, especially the bold, tells us exactly why.

[Loser]

As always, no mention of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead, or the damage we did to the infrastructure of that country. Nope, just our dead, it's all that matters.

People wonder why we have wars...

Yea, that always bothered me. Another reason I bash american news any chance I get.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Personally, and berate me all you want, but I could give a fuck about the dead Iraqis/Afghans/whatever. Do you think they care how many Americans are dead?

And even the most liberal websites say the number of dead civilians is only about 110K (not hundreds of thousands :rolleyes: ) and of course that doesn't differentiate between ones killed by coalition forces and ones kill by their own countrymen, so by all means, blame the whole thing on the United States :thumbsup:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Obama isn't pulling out by choice. That one sentence, especially the bold, tells us exactly why.

Regardless of the reason (and you are right about why we are leaving), all I can say is it's about time. We should have left once Osama was dead. Enough with the allied soldiers getting wounded and killed for a bunch of people that could care less. Once we leave they'll just end up going back to killing each other and eating sand anyway.

[JoeyB]

Yea, that always bothered me. Another reason I bash american news any chance I get.

Me too, and I live here. I've actually found that the best way to get information about any one country is to get it from anywhere but that country. There are a very few exceptions to this...Norwegians tend to be flatly honest, and I truly believe the Germans are harder on themselves than anyone else, and by far. So, they certainly aren't spreading crap to make themselves sound better.


Personally, and berate me all you want, but I could give a fuck about the dead Iraqis/Afghans/whatever. Do you think they care how many Americans are dead?

And even the most liberal websites say the number of dead civilians is only about 110K (not hundreds of thousands :rolleyes: ) and of course that doesn't differentiate between ones killed by coalition forces and ones kill by their own countrymen, so by all means, blame the whole thing on the United States :thumbsup:

Even the most liberal? Actually, many estimates place the value as high as 750,000 to 1 million. Second, there are no official army versions because they refused to bother to count. Third, regardless of who pulled the trigger, all of these people died as a direct result of the conditions our invasion caused. Bear in mind, even the infant mortality rate skyrocketed after we took over. Fourth, how dare you not care? We did this! We are supposed to be the good guys. Fucking A Lance...being American used to mean something decent.

I for one will live and die a proud American...I will not allow myself to become one of those people who hates the world, justifies horrors, and doesn't CARE about the damage we do.

Rather, I wish to see us back where we should be, as a decent, loving country.

Everyone who says they don't care...that is an affront to the very decency that being an American is about.

We do things (or should be doing things), because it is right to...not because we will profit from it, not because anyone else deserves it, but because it is the moral, human thing to do.

Lance, seriously, why are you so full of hate and anger? All your posts are about hating the poor, or people from other countries, or basically anyone who is not you. Dude....this is a sickness within yourself, and you will always be full of hate until you address it.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

:ffs:

Yes, I hate everyone except myself...it's like you're in my head reading my thoughts :thumbsup:

[JoeyB]

:ffs:

Yes, I hate everyone except myself...it's like you're in my head reading my thoughts :thumbsup:

I am reading...your words dude. So much of what you post reveals your hatred to the poor and to anyone who is not like you.

Let it go, because you are going to destroy yourself.

"but I could give a fuck about the dead Iraqis/Afghans/whatever."

That is from an hour ago in this thread...it's a little late to claim you don't hate now.

[Godfather]

I'm not even going to bother stating my opinions except that I breathed a big sigh of relief, probably like almost everyone, when I read the headline earlier.

[JoeyB]

I breathed a big sigh of relief when I read the headline earlier.

Women do the same thing after a well timed withdrawal.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I am reading...your words dude. So much of what you post reveals your hatred to the poor and to anyone who is not like you.

Let it go, because you are going to destroy yourself.

"but I could give a fuck about the dead Iraqis/Afghans/whatever."

That is from an hour ago in this thread...it's a little late to claim you don't hate now.

Yup, why even bother arguing, you know me better than I know myself....wow :shock:


:sarcasm:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I'm not even going to bother stating my opinions except that I breathed a big sigh of relief, probably like almost everyone, when I read the headline earlier.

Amen brother :agreed:

[Goofy]

"but I could give a fuck about the dead Iraqis/Afghans/whatever."


I agree :tup: Shower of cunts who harbour cunts........ shouldve left Saddam in charge in Iraq, brutality seems to be the only way to control them........

[Muddy]

Go Obama! Get r dun, brother! :cheerlead:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Go Obama! Get r dun, brother! :cheerlead:

You do realize that it was Bush that signed the Status of Forces agreement that mandated, without another agreement, that the troops would all be leaving this year?

[Muddy]

Dont care, Homie... Since Obama has been behind the desk(and woken up), he has been one of the biggest threats to Muslim extremism... He's done a pretty good job keeping up the momentum, I must say.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I never said he wasn't doing a good job on the war on terror, but as far as this troop pull-out, he has nothing to do with it. He's following the agreement that was signed by the previous administration.

If anything, I fault him for not pulling the troops out sooner, like he promised he would do.

[Muddy]

I credit him for completing the task.. All BS aside you have to admit the guy has done some things right..

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I see you only read part of what I post, so I'll leave you to this :)

[Muddy]

:lol: I read it, I read it...

[FBD]

regardless of who pulled the trigger, all of these people died as a direct result of the conditions our invasion caused. Bear in mind, even the infant mortality rate skyrocketed after we took over. Fourth, how dare you not care? We did this! We are supposed to be the good guys. Fucking A Lance...being American used to mean something decent.

I for one will live and die a proud American...I will not allow myself to become one of those people who hates the world, justifies horrors, and doesn't CARE about the damage we do.
So you're saying that Iran is perfectly innocent regarding the number of Iraqi civilian deaths?

Do you think that number would be different if the UN actually had the balls to back up the pieces of paper it issued telling Saddam "comply or else"...when their actions merely told him that "or else" meant "or else...we'll be forced to draw yet another line in the sand."

Gaddafi only dumped his weapons program after he saw what happened to Saddam - how do you think Iran would have responded with regard to their weapons program if the world actually was united in their message that it was not acceptable?

We all know that 1 million from this is a wickedly bloated number. But never mind the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis Saddam directly killed in whatever gross fashion. Or the percentage of the population that lived in utter fear of their lives. Or the number of women that were raped within an hour of being seen by Saddam's sons. Or their boyfriends who were killed afterwards for saying word one about it. Or the sports teams that were tortured for losing an international game.

Sorry man - Iraq was downright fking brutal under Saddam. It wasnt pretty getting them out from underneath him - but godssakes, how do you think Uday and Qusay would have run Iraq!?!?!?!

We did thhe people of Iraq a favor. Sure some of them died, it is always too many, but even in the mid term nevermind long term, the Iraqis WILL come out a thousand times ahead of where they would have stayed under Saddam.

Not that the ends always justify the means, but FFS...measure all parties here with the same ruler, bro.

I for one will live and die a proud American...I will not allow myself to become one of those people who hates american exceptionalism, justifies via moral equivalence horrorific atrocities because they're "none of our business," and doesn't care about the damage done to the lives of the victims from not assisting an oppressed people - how's them Iran dissidents doing since Obama threw them under the bus in 2009, when all they would have needed to begin that snowball rolling down the hill was a few choice supportive words from the bastion of democracy in the world?

Do you think we all should've stayed out of Darfur? Croatia? (of course it would have been better to send a force with a clear mission and not kid gloves on timid generals, but that is another matter.)

You cant free a country from a brutal dictator without some skulls getting cracked!

Ever consider that action and inaction are but points on the same scale, and in choosing not to decide you still have made a choice?

If you saw someone getting beaten or mugged on the street, would you stay out of it because it was none of your business?

[Goofy]

So you're saying that Iran is perfectly innocent regarding the number of Iraqi civilian deaths?

Do you think that number would be different if the UN actually had the balls to back up the pieces of paper it issued telling Saddam "comply or else"...when their actions merely told him that "or else" meant "or else...we'll be forced to draw yet another line in the sand."

Gaddafi only dumped his weapons program after he saw what happened to Saddam - how do you think Iran would have responded with regard to their weapons program if the world actually was united in their message that it was not acceptable?

We all know that 1 million from this is a wickedly bloated number. But never mind the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis Saddam directly killed in whatever gross fashion. Or the percentage of the population that lived in utter fear of their lives. Or the number of women that were raped within an hour of being seen by Saddam's sons. Or their boyfriends who were killed afterwards for saying word one about it. Or the sports teams that were tortured for losing an international game.

Sorry man - Iraq was downright fking brutal under Saddam. It wasnt pretty getting them out from underneath him - but godssakes, how do you think Uday and Qusay would have run Iraq!?!?!?!

We did thhe people of Iraq a favor. Sure some of them died, it is always too many, but even in the mid term nevermind long term, the Iraqis WILL come out a thousand times ahead of where they would have stayed under Saddam.

Not that the ends always justify the means, but FFS...measure all parties here with the same ruler, bro.

I for one will live and die a proud American...I will not allow myself to become one of those people who hates american exceptionalism, justifies via moral equivalence horrorific atrocities because they're "none of our business," and doesn't care about the damage done to the lives of the victims from not assisting an oppressed people - how's them Iran dissidents doing since Obama threw them under the bus in 2009, when all they would have needed to begin that snowball rolling down the hill was a few choice supportive words from the bastion of democracy in the world?

Do you think we all should've stayed out of Darfur? Croatia? (of course it would have been better to send a force with a clear mission and not kid gloves on timid generals, but that is another matter.)

You cant free a country from a brutal dictator without some skulls getting cracked!

Ever consider that action and inaction are but points on the same scale, and in choosing not to decide you still have made a choice?

If you saw someone getting beaten or mugged on the street, would you stay out of it because it was none of your business?

Great post :thumbsup:

[JoeyB]

I agree :tup: Shower of cunts who harbour cunts........ shouldve left Saddam in charge in Iraq, brutality seems to be the only way to control them........

That wasn't my quote you posted dude.


So you're saying that Iran is perfectly innocent regarding the number of Iraqi civilian deaths?

Well I made clear to you a few things in my email message so I will only address this briefly.

We went and invaded that country, destroyed it's infrastructure, and set in place conditions that led to massive civilian deaths.

Yes, we are responsible.

Does that leave anyone else without guilt? It most certainly does not.

Why was it our responsibility to 'free' as you put it, Iraq? And why have we done little for certain and far more brutal regimes in Africa?

Our invasion was not an act of nobility.

Even if it had been, we should still acknowledge the complete cost of the war...only ever listing US deaths is callous and speaks loudly of the insular, hateful world view that is becoming common in America.

[Iffy]

That wasn't my quote you posted dude.



Well I made clear to you a few things in my email message so I will only address this briefly.

We went and invaded that country, destroyed it's infrastructure, and set in place conditions that led to massive civilian deaths.

Yes, we are responsible.

Does that leave anyone else without guilt? It most certainly does not.

Why was it our responsibility to 'free' as you put it, Iraq? And why have we done little for certain and far more brutal regimes in Africa?

Our invasion was not an act of nobility.

Even if it had been, we should still acknowledge the complete cost of the war...only ever listing US deaths is callous and speaks loudly of the insular, hateful world view that is becoming common in America.

K preacherman What would you have done differently?

Are you sure you've seen the entire picture considering your strong opinion on the subject?

[JoeyB]

K preacherman What would you have done differently?

Are you sure you've seen the entire picture considering your strong opinion on the subject?

I'm letting it be known that Lance's "I don't care about those killed" statement is morally reprehensible.

All of the arguments posted since then boil down to one thing...people trying very hard to justify that they do not care one bit about a vast number of dead people.

[Iffy]

I don't care either. Death happens and happens more often in war. Quite frankly I am surprised more people haven't died given today's technology and weapons

I work for what I have and I am always willing to help others that help themselves, but, and I believe Lance is dealing with the same issue, I am tired of all this idiocy.
Lack of compromise, over breeding, greed, and general stupidity. Hard to take the casualties personally when it would either be fake or debilitating

So yeah. A lot of people died horribly and painfully. One day it will be my turn. Until everyone understands this and how the rest of this shit that people make such a fuss over doesn't really matter nothing is going to change...just take a different shape.

[JoeyB]

I don't care either. Death happens and happens more often in war. Quite frankly I am surprised more people haven't died given today's technology and weapons

I work for what I have and I am always willing to help others that help themselves, but, and I believe Lance is dealing with the same issue, I am tired of all this idiocy.
Lack of compromise, over breeding, greed, and general stupidity. Hard to take the casualties personally when it would either be fake or debilitating

So yeah. A lot of people died horribly and painfully. One day it will be my turn. Until everyone understands this and how the rest of this shit that people make such a fuss over doesn't really matter nothing is going to change...just take a different shape.

Giving in to hate and apathy? I'm disappointed in you Iffy. But obviously none of you care, about the dead or my opinion, so what can I do?

I'll just make a thread for Hal and maybe Jez and call it a night.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I don't care either. Death happens and happens more often in war. Quite frankly I am surprised more people haven't died given today's technology and weapons

I work for what I have and I am always willing to help others that help themselves, but, and I believe Lance is dealing with the same issue, I am tired of all this idiocy.
Lack of compromise, over breeding, greed, and general stupidity. Hard to take the casualties personally when it would either be fake or debilitating

So yeah. A lot of people died horribly and painfully. One day it will be my turn. Until everyone understands this and how the rest of this shit that people make such a fuss over doesn't really matter nothing is going to change...just take a different shape.

:cheers:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Giving in to hate and apathy? I'm disappointed in you Iffy. But obviously none of you care, about the dead or my opinion, so what can I do?

I'll just make a thread for Hal and maybe Jez and call it a night.

You are entitled to your opinion and I haven't seen anyone attack your position, whereas you on the other hand have made it a point to go after everyone that has since stated their opinion and doesn't agree with you. But you being self righteous and "holier than thou" is thoroughly irritating.

But you know what? Despite all that and all you "think" you know about me, I still love ya ;)

[FBD]

We went and invaded that country, destroyed it's infrastructure, and set in place conditions that led to massive civilian deaths.

Yes, we are responsible.

Does that leave anyone else without guilt? It most certainly does not.

Why was it our responsibility to 'free' as you put it, Iraq? And why have we done little for certain and far more brutal regimes in Africa?

Our invasion was not an act of nobility.

Even if it had been, we should still acknowledge the complete cost of the war...only ever listing US deaths is callous and speaks loudly of the insular, hateful world view that is becoming common in America.[/COLOR]

Joey, please understand that I am not attacking you personally when I question your views or positions on something. I've made an attempt to keep it all non-pointed and purely substantive.

What I have told my son of these things is that your beliefs, actions, what have you, must all stand up to you looking yourself in the mirror and withstanding your own self inquiry. Because you cannot bullshit yourself and lie to yourself about effects and outcomes, or anything else for that matter, when you are looking yourself in the mirror. Sure, you could choose to delude yourself, but really - are you really fooling yourself? Now that isnt pointed at you, but more to understand the formation of my own thoughts and how I rationalize things.

That said, the infrastructure of Iraq wasnt exactly stellar before we went in there.

Where I frown is - why are you pushing to strongly to exculpate Iran on this? As soon as we went in there, Iran was already there undermining the effort, in effect making it substantially harder for the goal to be achieved. (And that's nevermind AQ, they were doing the very same thing on their own front, but given that they are not a sovereign nation, we dont really have minimums of expectation for this group of terrorists.)

It basically sounds like you dont have much of an idea of how much they really did - with the sole intention of destabilizing the country. We went in there to free a population and get a country back on its feet with its fate in its own hands - Iran went in there to sow death and destruction simply because they are against the Saudis, the USA, anyone who disagrees with their particular form of fanaticism.

By "we are responsible" do you mean solely the USA, or are you including every single other country that agreed with us and joined the effort?

Whether or not it was "our responsibility" is debatable and it depends where you're viewing the situation from. Is it our responsibility to police the world? No. Is it our responsibility to make sure that every country on the planet has a good government? Absolutely not.

Is it our responsibility to do something about mass murders and genocide? By a government? I'm sure you have morals, Joey - where do they kick in on something like this? Again I'm not asking this to jab a stick on your side, I'm just curious - because you seem to think it is morally wrong to "invade a country" - that statement vanilla on its face, yes, it is - but situations in real life are not so vanilla and cannot be comprehensively addressed with such simple questions. Everyone's moral compass sways just a little differently. That's why I made the point about someone being mugged on a side street - my moral compass wouldnt let me just keep walking by, even if I put myself in danger because of it.

As far as I'm concerned, completely ignoring Saddam - we did Iraq a HUGE favor by not having the country devolve further under Uday and Qusay - how bloody of an internal revolution would there have needed to have been to overthrow those two in the future? Consider infrastructure, lives lost and destroyed in whatever fashion, in that context...are you at least understanding where I'm coming from? :)

[JoeyB]

You are entitled to your opinion and I haven't seen anyone attack your position, whereas you on the other hand have made it a point to go after everyone that has since stated their opinion and doesn't agree with you. But you being self righteous and "holier than thou" is thoroughly irritating.

But you know what? Despite all that and all you "think" you know about me, I still love ya ;)

Wanting people to care is self righteous? Being upset that people are justifying hate is wrong? This whole thread is about people celebrating hate and indifference, and you attack the one person saying, 'hey, we should give a fuck'. You are annoyed by it because deep down inside, you know that hate is wrong Lance...and it irritates the hell out of people who hate when they cannot sit comfortably in the excuses they make to maintain that state.

But whatever, and I did get the little 'stab' you delivered earlier.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Wanting people to care is self righteous? Being upset that people are justifying hate is wrong? This whole thread is about people celebrating hate and indifference, and you attack the one person saying, 'hey, we should give a fuck'. You are annoyed by it because deep down inside, you know that hate is wrong Lance...and it irritates the hell out of people who hate when they cannot sit comfortably in the excuses they make to maintain that state.

But whatever, and I did get the little 'stab' you delivered earlier.

No, what I'm annoyed by is your arrogance, but obviously that's what motivates you and if you weren't a regular member, I would be labeling you a troll. And you are the one that went on the 'attack' here, don't try and claim otherwise.

And if you don't stop making this thread your personal 'vendetta' against me all because you don't like my attitude, it will be locked. That's the only warning I will give.

[deebakes]

:dance: :cheerlead:

[RBP]

Welcome home. Job well done.

[Goofy]

Why was it our responsibility to 'free' as you put it, Iraq?

They have oil :)


And why have we done little for certain and far more brutal regimes in Africa?


No oil :)

[Godfather]

With the last 50,000 troops coming home and not needing to be replaced... can/will the US reduce the size of its active military force?

Having 1.5 million active troops and seems a little excessive and expensive in this kind of economy doesn't it?

[RBP]

With the last 50,000 troops coming home and not needing to be replaced... can/will the US reduce the size of its active military force?

Having 1.5 million active troops and seems a little excessive and expensive in this kind of economy doesn't it?

Since the active forces are comprised of so many reservists, many of them will return to civilian life. I don't know that the base full-time military should be reduced.

[Muddy]

With the last 50,000 troops coming home and not needing to be replaced... can/will the US reduce the size of its active military force?

Having 1.5 million active troops and seems a little excessive and expensive in this kind of economy doesn't it?

Fuuuuck No... We're going to Iran baby!!! :lol:

[JoeyB]

They have oil :)



No oil :)

Well Goofy, I don't know how much you are joking and how serious you are...but it is the truth.


With the last 50,000 troops coming home and not needing to be replaced... can/will the US reduce the size of its active military force?

Having 1.5 million active troops and seems a little excessive and expensive in this kind of economy doesn't it?

Everything about our military is excessive and expensive. The military is the big reason our economy is messed up- and the one no one is willing to discuss.

[Godfather]

Fuuuuck No... We're going to Iran baby!!! :lol:

http://i54.tinypic.com/33u96i9.gif

God I hope not :lol:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Fuuuuck No... We're going to Iran baby!!! :lol:

http://i.imgur.com/nceHl.jpg

[FBD]

Everything about our military is excessive and expensive. The military is the big reason our economy is messed up- and the one no one is willing to discuss.

At least its constitutional, unlike social security, medicare, welfare, government in student loans, fannie & freddie...

which combined make the military spending absolute chump change.

[JoeyB]

At least its constitutional, unlike social security, medicare, welfare, government in student loans, fannie & freddie...

which combined make the military spending absolute chump change.

But if you factor in interest payments on military loans, veterans benefits, and oh yeah, ten years of pointless wars, the military far exceeds anything else we have going on.