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Teh One Who Knocks
10-23-2011, 09:31 PM
Ethical vegans allow themselves a pretense of moral and ethical superiority with no real effort.
by Ward Clark - Pajamas Media
Ward M. Clark is a Colorado-based freelance writer and consultant who has followed and written about the animal rights movement for over thirty years.


Veganism dates back to 1944, when British Vegan Society co-founder Donald Watson coined the term to mean “non-dairy vegetarian.” The Society expanded the definition in 1951 to state that “man should live without exploiting animals.” Vegans eschew animal products in food, clothing, household products, or for any other reason.

There are a variety of reasons why people “go vegan.” Some simply don’t like the taste of meat. Some claim veganism is “green,” and that a vegan lifestyle minimizes impact on the environment.

In 1997, a survey revealed three percent of the people in the U.S. claimed that they had not used animals for any purpose in the previous two years. Rutgers School of Law professor Gary Francione argued in 2010 that “all sentient beings should have at least one right — the right not to be treated as property.”

Do ethical vegans live up to this stated standard? Do their actions live up to their own stated ethical principle, that animals have the right not to be treated as property? Do their actions really result in zero animal use? The parallel in human terms would be slavery, which no rational person thinks is ethically acceptable. Slaves are the property of masters; they live and die at their owner’s sufferance.

Unfortunately for the ethical vegan, the production of their food alone reduces their claim to impossibility. Animals are killed in untold millions, in the course of plant agriculture. Some are killed accidentally in the course of mechanized farming; some are killed deliberately in the course of pest control. Animals are killed, every day. Every potato, every stick of celery, every cup of rice, and every carrot has a blood trail leading from field to plate.

In 1999, while researching and writing Misplaced Compassion, I ran into a rice farmer who posted the following first-hand account on a Usenet forum:


[A] conservative annualized estimate of vertebrate deaths in organic rice farming is ~20 pound. … [T]his works out a bit less than two vertebrate deaths per square foot, and, again, is conservative. For conventionally grown rice, the gross body-count is at least several times that figure. … [W]hen cutting the rice, there is a (visual) green waterfall of frogs and anoles moving in front of the combine. Sometimes the “waterfall” is just a gentle trickle (± 10,000 frogs per acre) crossing the header, total for both cuttings, other times it is a deluge (+50,000 acre).

My own family was involved in corn and soybean farming; our numbers were not that high, but they were not inconsiderable. Pheasants and rabbits are routinely killed in planting and harvesting, and rodents are killed by the thousands using traps and pesticides at every step: production, storage, and transportation.

Rational people know this and don’t worry about it. It’s an inevitable consequence of modern, high-production agriculture. The ethical vegan, when confronted with these undeniable facts, collapses. Their reaction, in almost every case, is to do a rhetorical lateral arabesque into a new claim, that their vegan diet somehow causes “less death and suffering” than a non-vegan diet, a ridiculous and unsupportable argument. A pound of wild venison (net cost in animal death: about 1/120th of one animal) almost certainly causes less “death and suffering” than a pound of rice (net cost in animal death: including rodents, insect, reptiles and amphibians, number of deaths may range into the hundreds).

But the numbers don’t really matter. Not if there is a real ethical principle involved. What is at the heart of this fall-back argument is this claim: That a vegan diet has a lower cost in animal death and suffering than any non-vegan diet.

If any ethical vegan has crunched the numbers to prove this, I have yet to see the results. However, the numbers have been crunched elsewhere, and it turns out that a non-vegan diet may well cause less environmental impact than a vegan diet, for one reason: Food for livestock can be grown on land that is too poor for growing crops for human consumption.

If there was an actual ethical principle involved, the ethical vegan would be required to do one of two things:


• To analyze each of his or her sources of vegetable food and eat only those which are found to cause the least amount of animals to die.

• Move off the grid and grow all of their own food, scrupulously using no insecticides, no rodent control measures, and no mechanized equipment.

Note that it is only the second path that has a chance of actually accomplishing zero animal deaths.

In reality, ethical vegans do none of these things. In the real world, the ethical vegan has no idea — none at all — whether their diet causes more animals to die, the same number, or fewer, than a diet which includes meat. Even when they engage in a completely irrational search for micrograms of animal material in their diet (I know of one vegan who refuses to eat black olives because squid ink is used in part to color them) their actions are purely symbolic; they have no idea what their real impact is. Instead, they obsess over micrograms of animal products in their food while ignoring the metric tons of animal life destroyed to bring that food to the table.

An ethical principle is usually a pretty simple thing. If the willful murder of another human is wrong, then it is wrong in every circumstance. Ethical vegans claim that taking the life of non-human animals is wrong, but their actions do not live up to the claim; indeed, they don’t even try. The ethical vegan follows no ethical principle. Instead, they follow a simple, easy, results-neutral, and ethically indifferent rule: Do not put animal parts in your mouth. It allows them a pretense of moral and ethical superiority with no real effort; it is a cheap and easy pose, nothing more.

In fact, ethical vegans exhibit a stunning and savage hypocrisy. Ethical vegans, as a class, fail utterly to put any of their professed ethics into action. They claim to not cause harm to animals, but they do; when confronted, they claim to cause less harm to animals than the non-vegan, but they are utterly unable to show that to be true, and are willing to take no real effort to even quantify their impact. They are intimately involved, every day, in an activity that causes the deaths of millions of animals, and they do nothing about it.

Softdreamer
10-23-2011, 09:47 PM
http://i.imgur.com/DWZUv.jpg

Pony
10-23-2011, 10:29 PM
http://i.imgur.com/DWZUv.jpg

nice! :mrgreen: I'm saving that for future use. :tup:

Godfather
10-24-2011, 04:24 PM
As am I. Perfect. :mrgreen:

Muddy
10-24-2011, 04:28 PM
Good article, Stinky..

FBD
10-24-2011, 09:25 PM
:lol: vegans...now, I can see a point in vegeterianism, but vegan is simply a narcissist "more pious than thou" posturing - you see it in the fundamentalists of all stripes.

Muddy
10-24-2011, 09:30 PM
:lol: vegans...now, I can see a point in vegeterianism, but vegan is simply a narcissist "more pious than thou" posturing - you see it in the fundamentalists of all stripes.


Agreed.. :shock:



































:razz:

FBD
10-24-2011, 09:48 PM
:cheers: come...come to the dark side :lol:

Muddy
10-24-2011, 09:49 PM
Ohhhh No.... Im waiting for some Obama shit to leak out of you... :lol: :razz:

Hal-9000
10-25-2011, 12:36 AM
It's funny...the article lists reasons why people turn to veganism and none of them are health related...

Some folks can't digest meat and according to doctors, your body accepts and uses fruits and vegetables more readily than meats...

JoeyB
10-25-2011, 06:21 AM
It's funny...the article lists reasons why people turn to veganism and none of them are health related...

Some folks can't digest meat and according to doctors, your body accepts and uses fruits and vegetables more readily than meats...

The article is full of misinformation and is a bit of propaganda issued by a pro-hunting advocate.

Deepsepia
10-25-2011, 09:51 AM
The article raises an interesting point, but is significantly deceptive.

Note that the author compares the cost of venison from a wild deer to the most industrialized production agriculture. Only fair to compare apples to apples -- modern production techniques turn agriculture (soy and corn mostly) in the form of cattle feed into meat -- at horrendously poor efficiencies. If you compare "acres of crop that it takes to feed one human when converted into beef vs when you just eat the vegetables, fruits and grains yourself, vegetarianism is vastly more efficient and requires far less land. So if the author's complaint is "growing stuff kills animals" -- well, you have to grow a lot more stuff to make a hamburger than you do to make a felafel sandwich.

Author doesn't have any numbers, but mixes in insect deaths, which trouble very few people. And again, if you look at habitat, you have to grove much more food, and spray much more insecticide to grow beef than you do to grow corn for human consumption (counting the huge amounts of feed that beef require)

If I compare "apples to apples", the proper comparison to author's "pound of venison" might be an avocado from a tree in your back yard, or a bucket of berries you collected while walking in the woods, neither of which involve any animal deaths at all. Obviously neither that scenario nor author's subsistence hunting scenario apply many people, they're both very efficient in terms of animal deaths per calorie, but the forager is moreso than the hunter.

Softdreamer
10-25-2011, 10:17 AM
I dont accept that we should all give up meat, But I do accept that out diets are meat saturated.
We evolved eating meat maybe once or twice a week, and our digestive systems can cope with meat in that amount, we can eat meat 3 meals a day now. Thats an issue, in terms of health AND resources

Iffy
10-25-2011, 11:23 PM
Like a vegan would have the strength to harvest vegetables or pick some berries [-(

Hal-9000
10-25-2011, 11:28 PM
I know a girl who suddenly becomes a vegan every time I whip out my dick...


:sad2:

Leefro
10-26-2011, 12:01 AM
Don't they eat cheese ?

JoeyB
10-26-2011, 07:02 AM
Don't they eat cheese ?

Just for the frame of reference, I'm a vegetarian, I eat cheese, milk, etc. Vegans do not eat any animal products. I will say I have evolved to the point where I am leaning slightly towards veganism, as I eat much less cheese these days.

KevinD
10-26-2011, 07:18 AM
This is one of those things where I feel if you want to be a vegan (or vegetarian) I have no problem with that. I like meat. Bloody meat, hot and dripping from the flames.
The question I always have for those who say we are only supposed/designed/etc to eat one type of food is: Why then to we have Molars, AND Canines? Humans are evolutionarily designed to be omnivors. Period. Anything else is a personal life style choice (not counting those with alergies to certain foods).

Muddy
10-26-2011, 12:16 PM
I've noticed most vegans to be elitist prick wads..

Softdreamer
10-26-2011, 01:54 PM
Ive noticed most vegans to be skinny, self righteous and have a lower life expectancy..
Oh, and they also tend to have extreme political viewpoints.


I hate them almost as much as the Jesus selling suit wearing robots that knock on my door.

BTW, im in a bad mood today, so just agree with me. :lol:

KevinD
10-26-2011, 02:27 PM
Okay..No

Leefro
10-26-2011, 02:33 PM
At work when they ask for a veggie and they reply yes I follow that up with do you want an egg as they are battery eggs


everyone of them so far has replied yes I'll have an egg


WANKERS THE LOT OF THEM

Acid Trip
10-26-2011, 02:45 PM
Most vegetarians eat fish which always bothered me. You feel bad for the cow but not the fish?

Vegans are just stupid. Luckily for them (and many others) stupidity is not illegal. Yet...

Deepsepia
10-26-2011, 03:36 PM
Most vegetarians eat fish which always bothered me. You feel bad for the cow but not the fish?

Vegans are just stupid. Luckily for them (and many others) stupidity is not illegal. Yet...

there are two different arguments: health and ethics.

Its clear that folks who eat a lot of red meat are less healthy. Eating a lot of fish, on the other hand, is quite good for you. So the health argument is clear for "pescetarianism"

The ethical argument is tougher. The fish we eat have pretty minimal cognitive capabilities, more like insects than mammals. On the other hand, our harvesting of the oceans is damaging the higher animals, like dolphins and whales, which do have advanced cognition.

Folks concerned with environmental impact should probably eat chicken rather than fish, all things considered.

Red meat remains a bad bet on all grounds except taste . . .

Teh One Who Knocks
10-26-2011, 03:38 PM
http://i.imgur.com/EFRJo.jpg

Muddy
10-26-2011, 03:41 PM
That Beef looks horrible Lance... Needs a ton more fat...

Teh One Who Knocks
10-26-2011, 03:42 PM
http://i.imgur.com/EvGt6.jpg

Ribeye, my favorite steak cut :tup:

Muddy
10-26-2011, 03:44 PM
Me too... Costco sells 'prime ' cheap....

Leefro
10-26-2011, 03:46 PM
I'm not a fan of beef don't have it all that often

Teh One Who Knocks
10-26-2011, 03:46 PM
The ribeye that I get from my butcher is so tender you almost don't even need a knife....and it just melts in your mouth

:homer:

Teh One Who Knocks
10-26-2011, 03:47 PM
I'm not a fan of beef don't have it all that often

Are you a communist? :-s

Muddy
10-26-2011, 03:48 PM
Have you ever had prime?

Leefro
10-26-2011, 03:49 PM
Are you a communist? :-s

Don't like the taste

Acid Trip
10-26-2011, 03:50 PM
We didn't get to the top of the food chain without a lot of effort. I think of it as a salute to my ancestors every time I eat a T-Bone.

Teh One Who Knocks
10-26-2011, 03:50 PM
Have you ever had prime?

The butcher I go to only sells restaurant quality Prime+ beef...that's why I go there ;)

Hal-9000
10-26-2011, 03:53 PM
there are two different arguments: health and ethics.

Its clear that folks who eat a lot of red meat are less healthy. Eating a lot of fish, on the other hand, is quite good for you. So the health argument is clear for "pescetarianism"

The ethical argument is tougher. The fish we eat have pretty minimal cognitive capabilities, more like insects than mammals. On the other hand, our harvesting of the oceans is damaging the higher animals, like dolphins and whales, which do have advanced cognition.

Folks concerned with environmental impact should probably eat chicken rather than fish, all things considered.

Red meat remains a bad bet on all grounds except taste . . .

I was having some digestion problems and spoke to a GI specialist.He said that all meats are difficult to digest and pork is one of the worst offenders.

I can back his claims having spent 3 years experimenting with various foods. Of course salads, fruits and vegetables are far easier (and better) for your body to digest.
Having eaten processed luncheon meat for 2 decades, I can only shudder thinking of the various deposits throughout my body.

I still eat meat and lots of it, old habits die hard I guess...my breakfasts have become yogurt and bananas though.

Leefro
10-26-2011, 03:56 PM
There is nothing wrong with shitting through the eye of a needle

Muddy
10-26-2011, 04:01 PM
The butcher I go to only sells restaurant quality Prime+ beef...that's why I go there ;)


Whats that cost a pound?

Teh One Who Knocks
10-26-2011, 04:05 PM
Depends...he runs different specials on the different cuts every week. Ribeye probably averages about $9/lb while the grocery stores are charging $11 and $12 a pound for Choice :yuck:

Teh One Who Knocks
10-26-2011, 04:06 PM
http://tymkovichmeats.com/

The individual cut list price is on the website if you want stuff cut he doesn't have in the case at the time...it's a little higher than the stuff he already has butchered.

Muddy
10-26-2011, 04:31 PM
http://tymkovichmeats.com/

The individual cut list price is on the website if you want stuff cut he doesn't have in the case at the time...it's a little higher than the stuff he already has butchered.


It looks good, but are you sure thats prime? I dont see any mention of it...

JoeyB
10-26-2011, 08:39 PM
Most vegetarians eat fish which always bothered me. You feel bad for the cow but not the fish?

Vegans are just stupid. Luckily for them (and many others) stupidity is not illegal. Yet...


there are two different arguments: health and ethics.

Its clear that folks who eat a lot of red meat are less healthy. Eating a lot of fish, on the other hand, is quite good for you. So the health argument is clear for "pescetarianism"

The ethical argument is tougher. The fish we eat have pretty minimal cognitive capabilities, more like insects than mammals. On the other hand, our harvesting of the oceans is damaging the higher animals, like dolphins and whales, which do have advanced cognition.

Folks concerned with environmental impact should probably eat chicken rather than fish, all things considered.

Red meat remains a bad bet on all grounds except taste . . .

Actually, chicken farming causes terrible land and water pollution and the modern factory farming methods are incredibly cruel.

Otherwise, this is exactly it...you are a vegetarian for the health benefits, or for ethical reasons. Those in it for health may only reduce the types of meat they eat. Those like myself with ethical objections simply eat no meat whatsoever, and also make ethical choices in regards to the clothing we wear, the products we use, etc...