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View Full Version : What if abortion became a non-issue?



Teh One Who Knocks
10-24-2011, 12:50 PM
By David Frum, CNN Contributor


http://i.imgur.com/hX7vE.jpg

Editor's note: David Frum, a CNN contributor, was a special assistant to President George W. Bush from 2001 to 2002. He is the author of six books, including "Comeback: Conservatism That Can Win Again," and is the editor of FrumForum.

Washington (CNN) -- What's the most emotional and divisive issue in American politics?

Abortion, right?

Just this weekend, former Republican front-runner Rick Perry used the abortion issue to slam current Republican front-runner Herman Cain at the Iowa Faith and Freedom forum.

Perry said:

"It is a liberal canard to say I am personally pro-life, but government should stay out of that decision. If that is your view, you are not pro-life, you are pro having-your-cake-and-eating-it-too."

Over the previous week, Herman Cain had alarmed anti-abortion voters with a series of verbal miscues, indicating both that abortion must be stopped but also that the decision should be left to the individual woman, with no role for government.

At the Faith and Freedom forum, Cain over-corrected for his week of stumbles: "No abortions. No exceptions." That new position goes far beyond the usual pro-life policy, which allows exceptions for rape, child abuse, and to save the life of the mother.

Pro-life activists must unhappily confront the probability that many of the leading candidates for the GOP nomination in 2012 - while all professedly pro-life - in reality neither care very much nor think very much about the abortion issue.

But now look at the world from the politicians' point of view. They must hold together a coalition that is sliced apart by the abortion issue. Pro-choice Republicans do not hold forums. But they exist, and they have power. With the result that while you can't get nominated for president by the GOP if you are pro-choice (see Giuliani, Rudy), you also can't get nominated if you oppose abortion too much (see Huckabee, Mike).

For the politicians, it's all baffling and vexing.

And yet -- incredible as it sounds now -- there is reason to expect that the abortion issue may someday just vanish from national politics. After all, that's what happened to the last great moral issue to rattle the American party system: alcohol prohibition.

For 70 years from the end of the Civil War to the Great Depression, a human lifetime, the "drys" and the "wets" mustered all the passion, commitment, and moralism of the pro-life and pro-choice movements of our day.

"It is my opinion that the saloonkeeper is worse than a thief and a murderer. The ordinary thief steals only your money, but the saloonkeeper steals your honor and your character. The ordinary murderer takes your life, but the saloonkeeper murders your soul."

That's from the famous "booze sermon" of Billy Sunday, the great popular preacher of the 1910s and 1920s. Thousands of such passionate speeches -- millions more passionate words -- were uttered by names now brown with history: William Jennings Bryan, Carrie Nation, Elizabeth Cady Stanton. It was not all talk. Ferocious legislative battles were bought to prohibit alcohol at the county, state and then ultimately national level. The great scholar of American politics, Judith Shklar, estimated to her graduate students that through the long run of American history, more elections at more levels of government have turned on alcohol than any other issue, including slavery.

Politicians hated the alcohol issue for the same reason they now dislike the abortion issue: It sliced apart the existing party structure.

The Republicans could not win a national majority without the support of Protestant immigrants from Germany in cities like Milwaukee and St. Louis. The Democrats could not win without the enthusiastic support of Irish Catholics in New York and New England. City-dwelling Germans and Irish intensely resented attempts of their country-dwelling neighbors to regulate their behavior for them.

"If they don't feel like takin' a glass of beer on Sunday, we must abstain," a contemporary Irish-American politician bitterly complained. "If they have not got any amusements up in their backwoods, we mustn't have none."

National politicians responded to Prohibition then in the same way they respond to abortion now: by looking for ways to avoid and de-escalate a destabilizing issue. "Questions based upon temperance, religion, morality, in all their multiplied forms, ought not to be the basis of politics," declared Senator John Sherman of Indiana in 1873. "We don't want to alienate anybody!" complained a Michigan Republican leader of the 1880s as quoted in a contemporary newspaper.

As Richard Jensen observes in his classic history, "The Winning of the Midwest", "Very few prominent Republican politicians were abstainers ... The politicians were not less likely to be churchgoers (many voters, after all, attended church), but they had developed their own standards of personal morality." Then as now!

And yet a century later ... the issue is dead. Vanished. Forgotten. What happened?

Three things.

1. Alcohol prohibition did finally get a national trial, from 1919-1933 and was universally experienced even by former supporters as a disaster.

2. The problem addressed by prohibition has dwindled away. While it's difficult to know with any precision how much people drank in the years after the Civil War, it's almost certain that 19th Century Americans drank much more than they do today. (For that matter, Americans today drink nearly 20% less than they did as recently as 1980.)

3. And maybe most important, drinking and non-drinking are no longer so intimately associated with other ethno-cultural divisions within American life. As alcohol ceased to be a cultural symbol, the appropriate regulation of alcohol ceased to be an ideological issue. When alcohol regulation flared up again in the 1980s, during the debate over stricter punishments for drunk driving, the debate never turned into a culture war because "alcohol" was not code (as it had been a century before) for a dozen other identities and grievances.

Can we imagine such a fate for the abortion issue?

Condition number one could well happen, and would be revolutionary.

But even in its absence, condition number two is beginning to obtain in the United States. In the early 1980s, there were some 29 abortions per 1,000 women of child-bearing age. Today that rate has declined to about 19 abortions per 1,000 women. The rate will never reach zero, but we may expect that it will continue to decline as contraceptives improve and attitudes to out-of-wedlock birth become more accepting, and as evidence mounts that younger generations reject abortion as an acceptable resolution of a pregnancy.

What about condition three? Alcohol became central to American politics at a time when Americans were arguing whether the country should be rural or urban, a farm economy or industrial, and whether Catholics could ever become good Americans. As those arguments lost their intensity, so did the alcohol issue. Abortion became central to modern politics at exactly the same time as Americans were arguing over sexuality generally, over the status of women and the rights of gays.

I think it's a good guess that if we come to a new consensus about the status of women -- absorbing and digesting the sexual revolution of the 1960s and the feminist revolution of the 1970s into a new dispensation more comfortable with both women's equality to men and their differences from men -- disagreements over abortion will come to matter less. Such disagreements won't disappear, any more than we've seen the end of debates about whether bars should open on Sundays. But the disagreements won't matter so furiously much as they now seem to do.

Too bad for Herman Cain that day still seems at least a couple of decades remote.

Teh One Who Knocks
10-24-2011, 12:51 PM
It is a non-issue except for a few bible thumping religious zealots. FFS the government has absolutely no business sticking its nose in a personal decision like this.

man it pisses me off when the republicans focus so much time on this bullshit issue.

Muddy
10-24-2011, 01:26 PM
I dont like late term abortions...

Teh One Who Knocks
10-24-2011, 01:32 PM
I dont like late term abortions...

I can see an argument for that if the fetus would be viable outside the mother's body, but any early term abortions are none of the government's business IMO.

Muddy
10-24-2011, 01:33 PM
They have some of these doctors killing the baby as the head crowns the vag....

Teh One Who Knocks
10-24-2011, 01:34 PM
Very few doctors will perform an abortion that is that late term.

And the biggest one that did it was murdered in Kansas a few years ago.

Muddy
10-24-2011, 01:37 PM
Good riddance...

Acid Trip
10-24-2011, 01:47 PM
This is one subject where I heavily disagree with Republicans and show how much of a Libertarian I am.

Who am I (or anyone for that matter) to judge or decide what a woman can or can't do with her body? What gives anyone that right? I don't think it exists. Would I ever want someone to tell me what I can or can't do with my body? Hell no.

Obviously I'm not Pro-Life but I wouldn't call myself Pro-Choice either. I'm Pro "Stay the fuck out of other people's business". I take the same stance on gay marriage and drug use. If those are things people want to do it then go for it. No skin off my back.

Teh One Who Knocks
10-24-2011, 01:48 PM
This is one subject where I heavily disagree with Republicans and show how much of a Libertarian I am.

Who am I (or anyone for that matter) to judge or decide what a woman can or can't do with her body? What gives anyone that right? I don't think it exists. Would I ever want someone to tell me what I can or can't do with my body? Hell no.

Obviously I'm not Pro-Life but I wouldn't call myself Pro-Choice either. I'm Pro "Stay the fuck out of other people's business". I take the same stance on gay marriage and drug use. If those are things people want to do it then go for it. No skin off my back.

Very well put :tup:

:agreed:

PorkChopSandwiches
10-24-2011, 02:29 PM
I'm Pro "Stay the fuck out of other people's business".

:tup:

Muddy
10-24-2011, 02:41 PM
:tup:

Then why did you vote for Obama?

PorkChopSandwiches
10-24-2011, 02:43 PM
So I wouldn't look racist

Muddy
10-24-2011, 02:43 PM
You have to be who you are....

PorkChopSandwiches
10-24-2011, 02:49 PM
I will hide my racism behind Herman Cain this time

Muddy
10-24-2011, 03:37 PM
Herman Cain is the grandmaster flash of the Ku Klux Klan.

PorkChopSandwiches
10-24-2011, 04:57 PM
I know he's just David Duke in black face

JoeyB
10-24-2011, 08:27 PM
I know he's just David Duke in black face

I think David Duke has actually done that...

I'm anti abortion. You can throw up the concepts of a woman's right to chose, and the economic issues, and all that stuff, but in the end you are simply justifying the taking of a human life. I won't expound further, what would be the point?

minz
10-24-2011, 09:21 PM
I'm with muddy and JoeyB for my own personal choice, birth control is a much more humane way to solve the problem of unwanted children.

Acid Trip
10-24-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm with muddy and JoeyB for my own personal choice, birth control is a much more humane way to solve the problem of unwanted children.

Birth control only works if people use it and even then it's not 100% effective. Are you somehow going to force everyone to use birth control if their sex act is not for the purpose of having children?

That would be harder to enforce than marijuana laws and we see how effective those are...

FBD
10-24-2011, 09:43 PM
This is one subject where I heavily disagree with Republicans and show how much of a Libertarian I am.

Who am I (or anyone for that matter) to judge or decide what a woman can or can't do with her body? What gives anyone that right? I don't think it exists. Would I ever want someone to tell me what I can or can't do with my body? Hell no.

Obviously I'm not Pro-Life but I wouldn't call myself Pro-Choice either. I'm Pro "Stay the fuck out of other people's business". I take the same stance on gay marriage and drug use. If those are things people want to do it then go for it. No skin off my back.

Legally, I agree with you - but personally - I find abortion to be abhorrent. By the time a woman is aware of her pregnancy, there is another spark of awareness residing there, and if you dislodge it, it is no different than dislodging another spark of awareness from another "person."

JoeyB
10-24-2011, 11:07 PM
By the time a woman is aware of her pregnancy, there is another spark of awareness residing there, and if you dislodge it, it is no different than dislodging another spark of awareness from another "person."

This is the big point of contention, when does life begin. Some say at birth. I've heard people debate that fetuses are basically OK to terminate because they cannot survive on their own or are not 'fully developed' yet. I find that argument ridiculous....just because a life is surviving inside another person doesn't make it somehow less deserving, or less a life. Are we now debating that dependence on another is reason for termination? How long would a two or three year old child live without a caretaker of some sort? How long would any of us last if we fell into the ocean and slipped underwater? Does that make our lives less valuable, being dependent on the air around us to live? So that whole line of thought is, to me, utterly without merit.

And the economic arguments are pathetic, if you place money above people you've already lost the debate from an ethical standpoint.

Another point is one of inconvenience, of a burden it would place on the parents. Yet we live in a society where people are lined up waiting for newborns, where almost anyone who wished it could have adoptive parents waiting to accept the responsibility.

The only argument of any validity ever presented for abortion is when the life of the mother is at stake. But, the reality is this is an exceedingly rare reason for the cessation of life.

And no one can accuse me of having an agenda or a bias in this view, because I would be the first person to defend anyone's rights, equality is very important to me. I'm not politically motivated here and you'd be damned trying to make that argument. My point is of the obvious but overlooked reality; the concept of 'a woman's right to chose' should not include being allowed to chose murder. It may be an inconvenient reality, but, once you have another life growing within yourself you are not making solitary choices. It is no longer just the woman's body or her preferences at play as there is another person involved. It is a life, and it does deserve consideration and respect.

Hal-9000
10-24-2011, 11:25 PM
I'm pro choice....things like rape, accidental pregnancy or 13 year old kids with child just don't make sense to me...


scenario - loving couple who let's say are 16 and 17 make a mistake, she's pregnant.Guy can't get a decent job and girl wants to keep baby.
Who's going to be looking after that baby? The government and when welfare fails....most likely the parents will turn to crime or deny the baby
the basic needs...

all parents here know that raising a child is not cheap and you gotta be there....otherwise we read horrible parental stories like in news & views

PorkChopSandwiches
10-24-2011, 11:34 PM
If someone doesn't want a child, then why the fuck would you want to force them to keep it.

Leefro
10-24-2011, 11:40 PM
So muddy you are for the saving of a life then are for taking a life

I don't get it

Leefro
10-24-2011, 11:42 PM
It is a non-issue except for a few bible thumping religious zealots. FFS the government has absolutely no business sticking its nose in a personal decision like this.

man it pisses me off when the republicans focus so much time on this bullshit issue.


Maybe because it is a vote winner ?

DemonGeminiX
10-24-2011, 11:45 PM
Maybe because it is a vote winner ?

No matter what stance you take, you gain votes on one front and you lose votes on the other.

Leefro
10-24-2011, 11:49 PM
With the Bible belt being the best place to win votes with this stance


Ohh and the tea party ;)

Muddy
10-25-2011, 12:01 AM
Im for a womans choice, but no late term abortions.. Past a certain point, deals off. That point is when it could technically survive outside the body on its own.

Leefro
10-25-2011, 12:05 AM
If I was a doctor I would not perform the operation you mentioned 100%

Muddy
10-25-2011, 12:05 AM
You mean the one where the head crowns?

Leefro
10-25-2011, 12:10 AM
If I knew what that meant

Hal-9000
10-25-2011, 12:13 AM
It is a non-issue except for a few bible thumping religious zealots. FFS the government has absolutely no business sticking its nose in a personal decision like this.

man it pisses me off when the republicans focus so much time on this bullshit issue.

Not all of the pro lifers are 'bible thumping zealots'

Muddy
10-25-2011, 12:14 AM
If I knew what that meant

They abort the child about an inch before/from coming out of the womans vagina... So 'technically' it's still a fetus.

Leefro
10-25-2011, 12:20 AM
Yeah like I said previous If I was a doc I would not perform that op

Leefro
10-25-2011, 12:22 AM
Not all of the pro lifers are 'bible thumping zealots'

Well the Bible bashers are the only ones that are seen when an issue like this raises it's head

Hal-9000
10-25-2011, 12:27 AM
Well the Bible bashers are the only ones that are seen when an issue like this raises it's head

I saw a group from TV news and they were proud to be pro lifers and non religious folk.I have a few friends that are the same...one is not necessarily synonymous with the other :thumbsup:

Teh One Who Knocks
10-25-2011, 12:34 AM
I'm pro choice....things like rape, accidental pregnancy or 13 year old kids with child just don't make sense to me...


scenario - loving couple who let's say are 16 and 17 make a mistake, she's pregnant.Guy can't get a decent job and girl wants to keep baby.
Who's going to be looking after that baby? The government and when welfare fails....most likely the parents will turn to crime or deny the baby
the basic needs...

all parents here know that raising a child is not cheap and you gotta be there....otherwise we read horrible parental stories like in news & views

This ^^


If someone doesn't want a child, then why the fuck would you want to force them to keep it.

And this ^^

Pretty easy when you just use common sense

Teh One Who Knocks
10-25-2011, 12:34 AM
Not all of the pro lifers are 'bible thumping zealots'

Not 100%, but more often than not in my experience

Leefro
10-25-2011, 01:00 AM
I saw a group from TV news and they were proud to be pro lifers and non religious folk.I have a few friends that are the same...one is not necessarily synonymous with the other :thumbsup:

You would agree that the people you describe are in the minority tho

Hal-9000
10-25-2011, 01:08 AM
Not 100%, but more often than not in my experience


You would agree that the people you describe are in the minority tho

Yes and yes...

I'm Christian and a full on abortion supporter, if that's what the person carrying the potential child wants

Southern Belle
10-25-2011, 01:25 AM
This is one subject where I heavily disagree with Republicans and show how much of a Libertarian I am.

Who am I (or anyone for that matter) to judge or decide what a woman can or can't do with her body? What gives anyone that right? I don't think it exists. Would I ever want someone to tell me what I can or can't do with my body? Hell no.

Obviously I'm not Pro-Life but I wouldn't call myself Pro-Choice either. I'm Pro "Stay the fuck out of other people's business". I take the same stance on gay marriage and drug use. If those are things people want to do it then go for it. No skin off my back.

AMEN!