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View Full Version : A Little Straight Talk on National Defense



JoeyB
12-05-2011, 11:37 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/24n3ec5.jpg

By Kevin Drum

The Economist's Roger McShane is unimpressed with all the doom-mongering over proposed cuts to the Pentagon budget:

So by how much will the defence budget decline over the next decade? That could be seen as a trick question, because in nominal terms it will grow. Prior to the supercommittee's failure, the defence budget was slated to increase some 23% between 2012 and 2021. Now, according to Veronique de Rugy, the Pentagon will have to make do with a 16% boost…Or to put it another way, as Lawrence Korb does, the "sequestration will return defense spending in real terms to its FY 2007 level, the next to last year of the Bush administration, when no one was complaining about devastating levels of spending."

…But these numbers have not quieted the critics. And perhaps the most ardent among them has been [Defense Secretary Leon] Panetta. My colleague cites a statement from the secretary, in which he lists the tragic results of a 16% increase: "We would be left with our smallest ground force since 1940, the fewest ships since 1915 and the smallest Air Force in its history." Here's another fact: America already has the fewest ships since 1916, despite a 70% increase in defence spending between 2001 and 2010.

We could, of course, have thousands of ships and tens of thousands of warplanes if we wanted. But that would mean buying lots of PT boats and swarms of F-4s instead of a dozen Nimitz- and Ford-class supercarrier groups and a few hundred F-35s. We don't have a small number of ships and planes because we're too cheap to buy more, we have them because that's what the Pentagon wants. Modern war makes a small number of superadvanced weapons systems more effective than a bunch of cheap cannon fodder.

Defense hawks like to insist that we should judge the Pentagon budget as a percentage of GDP. The Bill Kristol contingent, for example, claims that we should never allow defense spending to fall below 4 percent of GDP. But is this a sensible way of looking at things? For some programs it is. Social Security and Medicare, for example, are both inherently tied to population growth and living standards, so as those go up so will outlays. But in other areas this doesn't make so much sense. Do we need more embassies overseas just because our GDP has grown? Not really. There will be some increase in wages that's tied to economic growth, but that's about it.

National defense falls into this category. The United States is no harder or easier to defend when our economy grows, so it's foolish to pretend that defense spending as a percentage of GDP should remain constant. It should go up when we're at war, or when external threats are high for some reason, and it should go down in other times.

This is one of those other times. Despite the best efforts of defense hawks to jangle nerves over China, the plain fact is that China remains a minuscule military threat and probably will remain so for the foreseeable future. We aren't going to start a land war in Asia, after all. Spending on cybersecurity will increase in the future, but it's still a nit in the grand scheme of Pentagon spending. On other fronts, Al Qaeda is all but dead, and our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are winding down. We'll continue to keep troops in the Middle East and (for better or worse) we'll continue with our drone wars in Pakistan, Yemen, and elsewhere. But those are pretty cheap. As scary as terrorism might be, the fact is that it's primarily an intelligence expense. On a pure military basis, it's simply not a big-ticket threat.

So can we afford to reduce defense spending to 2007 levels? Of course we can. The world is not more dangerous today than it was in 2007, and there's no a priori reason it should cost more to defend the security of the United States today than it did in 2007. We might spend that money differently, of course. Perhaps the Pentagon will decide it would rather have a thousand more drones instead of a single additional supercarrier group. That might well make sense since the mission of supercarrier groups is becoming fuzzier all the time in an era of primarily asymmetric warfare.

The supercommittee sequestration will require the Pentagon to find additional cuts of about $50 billion per year in its budget. To pretend that this would make us virtually defenseless is to insult our collective intelligence. We can make that cut and still have the most powerful military on the planet by a factor of five or six. If that doesn't make you feel safe, nothing will.

My emphasis on that last line.

Deepsepia
12-06-2011, 12:06 AM
If defense spending could make us safe, we'd be the safest nation in the history of the planet. I doubt that any one nation has ever accounted for so much of the world's military spending.

And yet the fear mongering is non-stop . . .

Godfather
12-06-2011, 12:09 AM
:lol: What a ridiculous figure... the things America could do for its people if they cut Defense spending by 25% would awe the entire world.

Muddy
12-06-2011, 12:09 AM
If defense spending could make us safe, we'd be the safest nation in the history of the planet. I doubt that any one nation has ever accounted for so much of the world's military spending.

And yet the fear mongering is non-stop . . .


Russia aint no better... They're just broke..

JoeyB
12-06-2011, 12:17 AM
If defense spending could make us safe, we'd be the safest nation in the history of the planet. I doubt that any one nation has ever accounted for so much of the world's military spending.

And yet the fear mongering is non-stop . . .

It is non stop...we account for nearly half of ALL military spending in the entire world. It's insanity.


:lol: What a ridiculous figure... the things America could do for its people if they cut Defense spending by 25% would awe the entire world.

We could have health care for everyone, improve our schools, and launch a much needed public works initiative that would create not only a lot of jobs but fix the bridges, roads, and water pipes that are falling apart over here. But NO...


Russia aint no better... They're just broke..

Actually, that is partly the whole point here. Why did the Soviet Union fail? They went broke fighting an endless war in Afghanistan, public services fell apart, there was not enough money to fund the services which the civilian population relied on, and the country disintegrated. The parallels between the USSR during the 80's and the US during that 00's are stunning, and disturbing.

Teh One Who Knocks
12-06-2011, 12:17 AM
:lol: What a ridiculous figure... the things America could do for its people if they cut Defense spending by 25% would awe the entire world.

What's ridiculous is anyone who actually believes that the numbers listed for China and Russia are true...since they are so forthcoming and truthful about everything else, why on earth would they lie about their military spending? :rolleyes:

JoeyB
12-06-2011, 12:19 AM
What's ridiculous is anyone who actually believes that the numbers listed for China and Russia are true...since they are so forthcoming and truthful about everything else, why on earth would they lie about their military spending? :rolleyes:

It's this sort of paranoia and fear mongering that is destroying America.

Godfather
12-06-2011, 12:21 AM
It's always "but Russia gets to do this" "But China's allowed to do that." Whenever there's a critique of America.

:lol: Those are buttfuck countries. Is that line of argument really supposed to justify this:

http://i41.tinypic.com/358e3x1.jpg

Deepsepia
12-06-2011, 12:23 AM
What's ridiculous is anyone who actually believes that the numbers listed for China and Russia are true...since they are so forthcoming and truthful about everything else, why on earth would they lie about their military spending? :rolleyes:

How many aircraft carriers does Russia have? China?

The figures are true. We spend vastly more than they do.

We're fighting several wars on the other side of the planet. Our effort in Afghanistan is analogous to Russia fighting a guerrilla insurgency -- in Bolivia

The day we decide to practice the strategy that worked fine for a generation -- containment-- our bills will go down.

We don't need to be in Afghanistan. We just don't want anyone from Afghanistan entering the US . . . not a hard problem, given that they don't have aircraft carriers.

Teh One Who Knocks
12-06-2011, 12:23 AM
It's this sort of paranoia and fear mongering that is destroying America.

Yes, because the world is such a wqonderful and safe place....it's those evil military people in Washington complicating the whole thing, damn them!! :shakefist:


It's always "but Russia gets to do this" "But China's allowed to do that." Whenever there's a critique of America.

:lol: Those are buttfuck countries. Is that line of argument really supposed to justify this:

http://i41.tinypic.com/358e3x1.jpg

You do realize why all the European countries, as well as Canada don't have to spend money on defense don't you? ;)

Teh One Who Knocks
12-06-2011, 12:24 AM
How many aircraft carriers does Russia have? China?

The figures are true. We spend vastly more than they do.

We're fighting several wars on the other side of the planet. Our effort in Afghanistan is analogous to Russia fighting a guerrilla insurgency -- in Bolivia

The day we decide to practice the strategy that worked fine for a generation -- containment-- our bills will go down.

We don't need to be in Afghanistan. We just don't want anyone from Afghanistan entering the US . . . not a hard problem, given that they don't have aircraft carriers.

And you know this because you audited their books this year? :-k

JoeyB
12-06-2011, 12:29 AM
How many aircraft carriers does Russia have? China?

The figures are true. We spend vastly more than they do.

We're fighting several wars on the other side of the planet. Our effort in Afghanistan is analogous to Russia fighting a guerrilla insurgency -- in Bolivia

The day we decide to practice the strategy that worked fine for a generation -- containment-- our bills will go down.

We don't need to be in Afghanistan. We just don't want anyone from Afghanistan entering the US . . . not a hard problem, given that they don't have aircraft carriers.

Someone actually agreeing with me that we need to reduce military spending?

I'm so happy I could cry.

JoeyB
12-06-2011, 12:30 AM
Yes, because the world is such a wqonderful and safe place....it's those evil military people in Washington complicating the whole thing, damn them!! :shakefist:

Actually...

Godfather
12-06-2011, 12:33 AM
How many aircraft carriers does Russia have? China?

The figures are true. We spend vastly more than they do.

We're fighting several wars on the other side of the planet. Our effort in Afghanistan is analogous to Russia fighting a guerrilla insurgency -- in Bolivia

The day we decide to practice the strategy that worked fine for a generation -- containment-- our bills will go down.

We don't need to be in Afghanistan. We just don't want anyone from Afghanistan entering the US . . . not a hard problem, given that they don't have aircraft carriers.

:thumbsup: Sounds pretty damn reasonable to me.

JoeyB
12-06-2011, 12:35 AM
:thumbsup: Sounds pretty damn reasonable to me.

Another one!

Fuck me dead...where's the Balki "Dance Of Joy" smiley when you need one?

Godfather
12-06-2011, 12:38 AM
I'm Canadian though, I have no veto authority :lol:

Leefro
12-06-2011, 12:41 AM
Don't worry Iran will soon cut your defence budget

Muddy
12-06-2011, 01:57 AM
We need Deep to go ahead and run for office...

FBD
12-06-2011, 12:06 PM
We could have health care for everyone, improve our schools, and launch a much needed public works initiative that would create not only a lot of jobs but fix the bridges, roads, and water pipes that are falling apart over here. But NO...
In other words, a whole crapload of stuff that is not under the legal authority of the federal government to do.

I know "Utopia" isnt the USA for you lefties, but cripes stop trying to fuck up my country and make it a leftist haven where the entire population is stunted so that the state may be all and end all to everyone. It is not the governments job to feed, clothe, shelter, inoculate and care for its population. That is the people's job.



Actually, that is partly the whole point here. Why did the Soviet Union fail? They went broke fighting an endless war in Afghanistan, public services fell apart, there was not enough money to fund the services which the civilian population relied on, and the country disintegrated. The parallels between the USSR during the 80's and the US during that 00's are stunning, and disturbing.
Since you missed that one also, the soviet union failed because of overuse of top down centralized planning - its going to be the downfall of the chinese before long also - you CANNOT dictate human behavior, subsequently, you cannot dictate supply and demand! So when you direct resources somewhere, you necessarily take it from somewhere else - and when the gov does that, it takes those resources from its citizens. "The government knows better how to utilize these resources." When that is overused, the people have less resources with which to live.

Doing so left the soviets in a weak position and they crumbled internally. Why did public services fall apart, why was there not enough money (and they didnt spend it all in afghanistan either, although a bunch was spent on cold war)...

What you're missing is that even absent the cold war, it was only a matter of time before the paradigm failed anyway! That just accelerated it - the government gets weightier, requires more and more and more and more from its citizens, the things that make the country run well cease functioning well.

Yes, the parallels are stunning, disturbing - we've been trying to top down centralized planning thing for the last few years here and look at how its done the country. Shittier than ever, the economy will not start up because the size of government just keeps growing with all of this baseline budgeting bullshit...



Joey, do you understand why wage and price controls lead to inflation, higher prices, shortages?

Do you understand why when a government mismanages its citizens money to enough of an extent, it hurts the population?

Acid Trip
12-06-2011, 03:53 PM
It is not the governments job to feed, clothe, shelter, inoculate and care for its population. That is the people's job.


Everything you said was good, but that one sentence sums it up pretty well.

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty (food stamps , welfare), but leading or driving them out of it (aka temporary support). In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

Benjamin Franklin, On the Price of Corn and Management of the Poor, November 1766

Muddy
12-06-2011, 04:05 PM
I wish I could afford my own legal immigrant to work around my house for like a dollar an hour...

Softdreamer
12-06-2011, 04:15 PM
IMO America thrives upon making itself a target for the rest of the world. Defense and war are big economic driving factors for them, without it they dont have much other than Wall Street.

Since the information revolution I dont think its possible for another 'Hitler' situation to happen. All over the world dictators are falling faster than they are springing up and in a generations time I doubt there will be many places in the world that havent succumbed to democracy. For this reason alone I think ALL nations should be easing back on defense budgets, especially considering the current debt situation faced by all.

As for worrying about Iran, Hows about the USA spend a small amount giving free unrestricted internet access to all Iranians via satellite. They would pretty soon get rid of the nutter in charge themselves when exposed to the global media. A far cheaper option both in $ and in human life.

Arkady Renko
12-06-2011, 04:21 PM
I think the issue is not as straight as the article would make it seem. Sure, compared to other countries, US military spending is extraordinary, even if you factor in that, say, a hundred bucks go a much longer way in russia or china than they do in the US and that china in particular are probably hidinga lot of their defense budget in shadow budgets or similar. But then again the massive spending does buy the US an outstanding influence and it also puts food on a lot of tables, allowing millions of people to earn a decent wage for their hard work. Much better than handing out saucy welfare payments to the poor. Think of it as a modern democratic counterpart to the Pyramids of Ghizeh, apparently those things kept the egyptian economy running for quite some time.

Then again, that doesn't mean that the US government shouldn't neglect infrastructure and education the way it is now.

FBD
12-06-2011, 04:57 PM
Then again, that doesn't mean that the US government shouldn't neglect infrastructure and education the way it is now.

Yeah, specifically, those responsible for infrastructure - i.e. the states! If you look at those whom spend their money recklessly and rape their businesses for as much cash as possible, you'll see those are the places with the highest welfare utilization, highest budget deficits, worst areas to do business.

If they werent wasting so much money, they wouldnt be having uncle Sam take money from productive states so that they can cover these things.