Why I rally against our current corporate capitalism.

[JoeyB]

This is sort of a carryover from something I posted a few minutes ago in another thread. But, to clarify, I am not anti wealth. I plan on being wealthy myself one day. Rather I am against our current corporate state in America. I do not hate, I am angry and steadfast against the injustice of it.

As I said in the other thread, I don't hate the engines of commerce. But the current corporate culture is one that favors only those at the top, stifles legitimate competition (which should be the main benefit of capitalism) and has slowly decayed the middle class and made the poorer even more so. It is reprehensible.

Capitalism doesn't work because it has evolved into something different...corporate controlled capitalism. When America was founded business was by and large small scale and local. In fact, part of the reason America exists is our distaste of the unfair situations brought about by monopolies, such as the East India Company. So while there were some larger entities (though, nothing on scale with todays monstrous conglomerates), capitalism could function because of the nature of the business model.

When I was in high school one teacher, a very fervent fan of the business model of society, explained to us that capitalism was a superior system because competition resulted in lower priced and higher quality goods, and that it worked in the favor of the people.

And this was once true, long ago. Two hundred years ago when most business endeavors really were local and small, those who owned them had to work hard and provide high quality goods to keep their customers happy, lest another and better craftsman come along and take over the top spot. Competition really did provide the two mythic benefits of capitalism, the first of lower prices, and the second of higher quality goods. It also reinforced attentive service from the business people.

But large scale industrialization ruined all that. It didn't have to of course. Industrialization could and should have been purely beneficial to our world. Sadly it did not play out that way.

By the late 1800's a new model had emerged with large corporations beginning to control more assets. Local production ceased in favor of cheaper, mass produced factory goods. But even under those conditions capitalism still worked, after a fashion. It was no longer ideal but the competition remained as no massive business interests controlled any one sector. Even a large factory based company would still be competing with other such groups.

But the oil barons and railroad owners of the 1800's-early 1900's discovered that if you could control an area, and control either production or the transport of produced goods, you could forget competition, you could forget having to be fair and work hard, you could forget having to please your customers; instead if you had full non-competitive control, you could simply dictate terms. And if the customers didn't like it, they had no options. If the employees complained, they could be disposed of.

This was the beginning of modern corporate America.

No one reading this was alive when this happened obviously. But some of you were alive in the 40's and 50's when the corporate interests had begun to congeal and finesse their control techniques. It was in the early sixties when President Eisenhower warned of the military industrial complex, and it has only worsened since then.

Just being able to control an area or a product wasn't enough of course, they began to donate to politicians and seek favorable laws to benefit their corporations. They stacked the deck in their favor and nobody could or can compete.

This is where capitalism stands, with not only local businesses but even large regional ones disappearing because a small handful of mega-corporations control everything. This is why you have no true competition, why customer service is vanishing, because capitalism works not for the people, as intended, but instead for the elite of the wealthy, who own and control the entire system. The kings to which we are in servitude no longer wear crowns or have royal titles and dictate laws, instead they have corporate titles and dictate what should be law to the politicians they own.

The only solutions, and these would never happen as the corporate masters would never allow it to pass, and there are also problems inherent to the solutions, but the only possible recourses would by necessity reinvent capitalism as we know, drag it back to its proper place as one that serves consumers and not one that places consumers in servitude, and help to bring the end of the elite rich growing richer, with the middle class disappearing and the poor becoming poor.

It's two AM, apologies in advance for typos and such.

[Shady]

First off just to get it out of the way before anyone else does :tinfoil:

Secondly, I must agree with you on many points. The Declaration of Independence that man's inalienable right include "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." For many people in America that pursuit of happiness includes the acquisition of wealth, enormous wealth. That is my goal too. I would like to be able to afford many of the luxuries in this world, as would many of us. Who doesn't want to own an Italian sports car or Luxury sedan, or be able to fly off to our dream location for a year and just live how we want to. We all desire the freedom to do as we please.

To play the devils advocate here, I will state that based on the number of million/billionaires that currently exist in this country, the number is continually growing, that capitalism does work and it can work very well. But back to my point. While the number of wealthy and their wealth continues to grow, there is a disproportionate growth in the middle, lower and poor class. And while I will never fault the wealthy for acquiring their wealth, capitalism is suppose to be equal opportunity after all, I do believe it despicable how they can use their money as power and leverage. Now while the rich are the job creators, I question how if they are acquiring more wealth how that directly translates into jobs to employ the lower and middle class. Very recent example, federal tax rates. If tax rates a raised or lowered, that does not directly relate toward the creation or loss of jobs. It merely translate into how much wealth the rich have and how hard they will have to work to find loopholes in the system. True job creation comes out of demand not out of the CEO making an extra 200k every year. It is in human nature to be greedy. How many company exec's do you think give money to every needy person they see on the street? Probably zero. I find myself hanging on to my money most of the time, and on rare occasion maybe giving the change in my pocket if they entertain me or something but most days I'm just like everyone else, greedy. What's mine is mine and fuck off you can't have it.

And that brings me to another point. The reason that I believe that the lower and middle class has had such disproportionate grow is that work and labor is becoming undervalued. Yes, most states have adopted higher minimum wages, but that is in response to a general increase in living costs. Even middle class jobs are becoming undervalued. We all know this based on experience. That crappy job that we never really liked and felt we were underpaid for the job we are doing. The kind of jobs where you end up getting a measly 3% living increase raise every year. Just trying to get by with the money we do make. Meanwhile, the ever growing rich becoming richer by having the money and chips to play in the big game down on wall street. In comparison, the average growth of having money in the market over the last 100 years or so has been a 7% return on their money. These days there seems to be far more emphasis on capital and investments than on an honest days labor. Now don't get me wrong, in a capitalistic society there is a definite need for capital and investment, and the day that I can afford it I will be joining the game, but I think that it seems to be getting out of hand. For leftist media support see:


http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-january-18-2012/exclusive---joe-nocera-extended-interview-pt--1

I would love to be one of the 1%, hell I'll settle for the top 25% but for the time being I'll settle for trying to throw poop at those far above me in the hopes that one day I'll be up there to throw even more poop at the ones below me. Just the way the world works I guess but it really seems out of balance at this point in our history.

[FBD]

If you follow the data you see pretty clear evidence that the more you raise minimum wage, the more you're really only hurting people who rely on minimum wage jobs, like teens. Face it, you get a job, do good work, you get raises provided the company's profit margin isnt so razor-thin that they really cant afford it.

Tax rates - dont forget the sheer amount of jobs provided by small businesses, they move and shake and create jobs - but if you're constantly punishing the guy running the place in a paradigm where what the company makes very directly affects the number of people he'll hire and how often he will give them raises. So an across the board punishment does indeed have trickle down effects, to workers as well as owners detriment.

Disproportionate growth - no, its disproportionate effect - doing asinine things like mandating an ethanol industry and burning food as fuel, raising the costs of commodities....or banning energy exploration and making people that make less pay significant portions of their income just to drive or stay warm...

a high and mighty government doesnt give a shit about these trickle down things - they'll just try to come up with a program to further stifle the economy and claim they're handing the cash to someone that can really use it :roll:

I dont even have the time to correct every bad assertion you make, Joey. You rail against capitalism when really you're raining against the effects of capitalism undermined by government. Whenever a government carves out favors and exemptions, it is distorting things and it friggin costs people. You describe monopoly where there isnt really monopoly, but governmental regulation that really favors the larger entrenched business.

You want to get rich? Make something of use for someone and sell it. Entrepreneurship is the path towards the common man's fortune. Things that hinder common people from opening a business are the very things that keep him down.

[JoeyB]

First off just to get it out of the way before anyone else does :tinfoil:

Secondly, I must agree with you on many points. The Declaration of Independence that man's inalienable right include "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." For many people in America that pursuit of happiness includes the acquisition of wealth, enormous wealth. That is my goal too. I would like to be able to afford many of the luxuries in this world, as would many of us. Who doesn't want to own an Italian sports car or Luxury sedan, or be able to fly off to our dream location for a year and just live how we want to. We all desire the freedom to do as we please.

To play the devils advocate here, I will state that based on the number of million/billionaires that currently exist in this country, the number is continually growing, that capitalism does work and it can work very well. But back to my point. While the number of wealthy and their wealth continues to grow, there is a disproportionate growth in the middle, lower and poor class. And while I will never fault the wealthy for acquiring their wealth, capitalism is suppose to be equal opportunity after all, I do believe it despicable how they can use their money as power and leverage. Now while the rich are the job creators, I question how if they are acquiring more wealth how that directly translates into jobs to employ the lower and middle class. Very recent example, federal tax rates. If tax rates a raised or lowered, that does not directly relate toward the creation or loss of jobs. It merely translate into how much wealth the rich have and how hard they will have to work to find loopholes in the system. True job creation comes out of demand not out of the CEO making an extra 200k every year. It is in human nature to be greedy. How many company exec's do you think give money to every needy person they see on the street? Probably zero. I find myself hanging on to my money most of the time, and on rare occasion maybe giving the change in my pocket if they entertain me or something but most days I'm just like everyone else, greedy. What's mine is mine and fuck off you can't have it.

And that brings me to another point. The reason that I believe that the lower and middle class has had such disproportionate grow is that work and labor is becoming undervalued. Yes, most states have adopted higher minimum wages, but that is in response to a general increase in living costs. Even middle class jobs are becoming undervalued. We all know this based on experience. That crappy job that we never really liked and felt we were underpaid for the job we are doing. The kind of jobs where you end up getting a measly 3% living increase raise every year. Just trying to get by with the money we do make. Meanwhile, the ever growing rich becoming richer by having the money and chips to play in the big game down on wall street. In comparison, the average growth of having money in the market over the last 100 years or so has been a 7% return on their money. These days there seems to be far more emphasis on capital and investments than on an honest days labor. Now don't get me wrong, in a capitalistic society there is a definite need for capital and investment, and the day that I can afford it I will be joining the game, but I think that it seems to be getting out of hand. For leftist media support see:


http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-january-18-2012/exclusive---joe-nocera-extended-interview-pt--1

I would love to be one of the 1%, hell I'll settle for the top 25% but for the time being I'll settle for trying to throw poop at those far above me in the hopes that one day I'll be up there to throw even more poop at the ones below me. Just the way the world works I guess but it really seems out of balance at this point in our history.

Nicely put, but I hope you don't climb to the top of the Donkey Kong ladder just to chuck barrels over Mario.


I dont even have the time to correct every bad assertion you make, Joey. You rail against capitalism when really you're raining against the effects of capitalism undermined by government.

My points are perfectly valid. I've made it clear on this forum I rail against the corporate capitalism that is sponsored by the republican party.


Things that hinder common people from opening a business are the very things that keep him down.

Exactly. Such as the corporations and their republican allies who have decimated small business. Happy dance~!!

[FBD]

My points are perfectly valid. I've made it clear on this forum I rail against the corporate capitalism that is sponsored by the republican party.



Exactly. Such as the corporations and their republican allies who have decimated small business. Happy dance~!!

:lol: keep pluckin that chicken

[Acid Trip]

Let's go ahead and make the rich pay 90% of their income over 3 million dollars annually. Are you really suggesting that we let politicians decide who gets that money or how it's spent? Let's look at that idea.

You took the money from the "wealthy" and now what. What do you do with it now? Not all business men choose to horde their money for increased personal wealth. Many recycle it back into their business for more products/stores/employees. If you don't give a business man the option of what to do with their money you are, by default, saying that a politician knows how to use it better.

The politician. A person who rarely works for extended periods in the private sector and whose primary objective is to get reelected over and over again.

Before we go taxing people at 90% or overhauling capitalism lets get rid of career politicians. Easily done with term limits. You'd be surprised how much of a difference that would make to capitalism.

[JoeyB]

Let's go ahead and make the rich pay 90% of their income over 3 million dollars annually. Are you really suggesting that we let politicians decide who gets that money or how it's spent? Let's look at that idea.

You took the money from the "wealthy" and now what. What do you do with it now? Not all business men choose to horde their money for increased personal wealth. Many recycle it back into their business for more products/stores/employees. If you don't give a business man the option of what to do with their money you are, by default, saying that a politician knows how to use it better.

The politician. A person who rarely works for extended periods in the private sector and whose primary objective is to get reelected over and over again.

Before we go taxing people at 90% or overhauling capitalism lets get rid of career politicians. Easily done with term limits. You'd be surprised how much of a difference that would make to capitalism.

Right to taxes huh? It's always about taxes with you guys.

You want to cut the crap with bad corporations? End this 'corporations are people' bullshit. End corporate spending on elections. End corporate lobbying, which was institutionalized by the republicans in the 90's. End super pacs. Make all politicians run on the exact same amount of campaign money.

[Acid Trip]

Right to taxes huh? It's always about taxes with you guys.

You want to cut the crap with bad corporations? End this 'corporations are people' bullshit. End corporate spending on elections. End corporate lobbying, which was institutionalized by the republicans in the 90's. End super pacs. Make all politicians run on the exact same amount of campaign money.

I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican. You so badly want to throw me in with them but I vary from the Republican "party line" on many issues.

[Muddy]

You want to cut the crap with bad corporations? End this 'corporations are people' bullshit. End corporate spending on elections. End corporate lobbying, which was institutionalized by the republicans in the 90's. End super pacs. Make all politicians run on the exact same amount of campaign money.


Amen.

[JoeyB]

I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican. You so badly want to throw me in with them but I vary from the Republican "party line" on many issues.

But you speak such fluent Fox Newsian, it's clear where you heart is.

Sorry, you are right, and I am wrong, you have no heart.

[Leefro]

where there is money there is corruption

Goes hand in hand and you or I will NEVER stop it

Sad state of affairs

[JoeyB]

where there is money there is corruption

Goes hand in hand and you or I will NEVER stop it

Sad state of affairs

This is very true Lee. I have a whole line of thought about evil...and greed truly is the root of all evil. Corporate capitalism is sadly built around greed, and invariably finds its way to evil. But I earnestly believe that shattering mega corporations and setting proper regulations in place will prevent a good deal of this form of abuse.

[FBD]

This is what's called a false narrative. An assumption. Just because some large corporations toss their moneyweight around, liberals have somehow cooked up this story that results in people having opinions like Joey's, who cant understand that they're a natural outgrowth of the process. Also too blind to see that they know where the gravy is, and that's why they give more money to democrats - but Joey, please dont let that spoil your "Republicans are eveil greedy moneysuckers and democrats are kind hearted benevolent gentlemen" fantasy.

[Muddy]

This is what's called a false narrative. An assumption. Just because some large corporations toss their moneyweight around, liberals have somehow cooked up this story that results in people having opinions like Joey's, who cant understand that they're a natural outgrowth of the process. Also too blind to see that they know where the gravy is, and that's why they give more money to democrats -


How can you find any fault in this? Liberals liberals liberals? huh? "natural outgrowth of the process" ? :lol:




You want to cut the crap with bad corporations? End this 'corporations are people' bullshit. End corporate spending on elections. End corporate lobbying, which was institutionalized by the republicans in the 90's. End super pacs. Make all politicians run on the exact same amount of campaign money.

[Acid Trip]

But you speak such fluent Fox Newsian, it's clear where you heart is.

Sorry, you are right, and I am wrong, you have no heart.

You sent me a Private Message asking me to back off the argumentative posts because "it's bad for the forum". I did that and you continually attack me. I even put you on my ignore list so I wouldn't have to read most of the stuff you post.

If you want to play this game I'm down. Here is the PM if you forgot.

[FBD]

pfft, its never been personal with Joey. he gets all pissy when I ask him to do something crazy like logically follow a line of reasoning to its conclusions or fit facts with reality or...actually acknowledge when his facts arent really even facts but half baked opinions since they cant even be backed up...ya know, something nutty like that.

MG, you do the same thing to a lesser extent. You bait me, I begin to address the shit and as soon as I ask a tough question of you I get the "hey man, I'm not here to answer all of your questions." :lol:

Are you two afraid of finishing those lines of thought or something? :razz: You guys call me on things you think I am inconsistent on (and then ignore it when I correct you :mrgreen:)

:shrug: what do you want? :lol:

[Muddy]

:shrug: what do you want? :lol:

You wait til my daddy deepsepia gets back... :lol:

[JoeyB]

You sent me a Private Message asking me to back off the argumentative posts because "it's bad for the forum". I did that and you continually attack me. I even put you on my ignore list so I wouldn't have to read most of the stuff you post.

If you want to play this game I'm down. Here is the PM if you forgot.

I put you on ignore too...as I did FBD. I took you off ignore after that PM and we were getting along well. You said things to me in posts that seemed to be baiting, but I simply backed off out of respect for the buried hatchet. However, you kept popping up and posting things that necessitated a reply, and so I started replying again. Look back over our posting history for the first couple of weeks after that pm I sent you...it's only you doing the arguing, and me replying as briefly as possible. But since you insist on arguing, why can't I? If that bothers you, stop getting involved in threads I start, and don't reply to my posts. How does that logic escape you?

And for the record, not only have I tried to get along with you, but I have told people here that you do have positive qualities and that there are things I like about you. Unlike FBD in whom I find no redeemable attributes.

As for my PM, it came after the three of us had some particularly nasty interchanges, and they were not healthy ones. We were all saying hurtful things to each other and doing so with near hostile fanaticism. That is the sort of interplay I was not proud to be a part of, and that I did not enjoy having sent my way. That PM put a quick stop to the problem, did it not? And as I said there, I held you no ill will for the things you had called me, and offered an apology for those things I called it. It was a total slate cleaner.


pfft, its never been personal with Joey. he gets all pissy when I ask him to do something crazy like logically follow a line of reasoning to its conclusions or fit facts with reality or...actually acknowledge when his facts arent really even facts but half baked opinions since they cant even be backed up...ya know, something nutty like that.

Look back to last year and our interactions at that time, I used to routinely accept your demands for more facts to back up my statements, and when I presented them, you would simply ignore those as well and demand more information. I'd give you more facts, and you would protest further. You would ignore everything that you dislike, despite the reality that elements such as history and science were on my side.

So that is why I stopped. What was the point of it? Why should I have to present endless streams of fact to back up what I say, only to have those facts dismissed time and time again? You ask for this stuff, but don't really want it.

If it annoys you that I won't keep presenting endless dates and facts and real bits of history to counter your Fox News spin, tough. I'm not here to dance for your amusement. If you find a problem with anything I've said, do you own damn research. You dance for me, and I'll be amused by the heavily spin doctored garbage you dig up.

[Hal-9000]

I think part of the problem starts here - I propose we elect politicians for a conditional 4 year term.We audit said politician annually and if he hasn't reduced spending, taxes or any one of another million promises that they make, they get ousted that year whether it be year 1,2,3...

We pay so much dead money to CEO's and politicians to 'run our country', yet they are the very people we elect to supposedly monitor spending.(I include CEO's as generalization for entities that financially support political parties, and by proxy dictate the rules of the economy)


Are we going to have to gather en masse with pitchforks and torches and beat down the doors of big spending to say - It's not fair and we ain't gonna take it no more?

ffs some retired politicians and CEO's make more on a pension than some second world countries make in a lifetime

[JoeyB]

I think part of the problem starts here - I propose we elect politicians for a conditional 4 year term.We audit said politician annually and if he hasn't reduced spending, taxes or any one of another million promises that they make, they get ousted that year whether it be year 1,2,3...

The only problem with that is you'd have obstructionist tactics being used by your political opponents, purely for the purpose of prematurely ousting other politicians. It would happen.


We pay so much dead money to CEO's and politicians to 'run our country', yet they are the very people we elect to supposedly monitor spending.(I include CEO's as generalization for entities that financially support political parties, and by proxy dictate the rules of the economy)

Well at least you get it...corporations do make the rules, they do elect politicians, and those politicians do exist to serve their corporate donors. FBD will crucify you for joining my side on that, but it is the truth...politicians are corporately controlled.


Are we going to have to gather en masse with pitchforks and torches and beat down the doors of big spending to say - It's not fair and we ain't gonna take it no more?

Occupy protests...already happening. And so yes, it is what we will have to do. If we don't stand up to corporate interests, they will continue to run things. I could make a really long, blue post about how Fox News and other conservative outlets have been preprogamming listeners to resist anything that questions the interests of corporate America (can't say how it works in Canada though). Look at the intense, almost rabid hatred of the poor you see in those people. Basic Christian values dictate championing the poor. It's what Christ would do. Basic human compassion says the same thing. So how do you make people back the rich? By making them hate the poor. How do you make people betray morality and faith? By repeating hateful lies. So, everyday those conservative outlets spread constant propaganda about how the poor are all welfare cheats, how they don't pay their fair share, how they are holding America back. Ignore that corporate America is destroying the middle class and creating more poor people...ignore that along with Christian values and compassion, no...those things don't matter.

This is why you hear so much hatred towards the poor from those sources...it's so their listeners will be ready and willing to back the rich regardless of the human cost.

I won't go further, like I said, I could write miles of blue on this...


ffs some retired politicians and CEO's make more on a pension than some second world countries make in a lifetime

Exactly. And some practices such as futures trading cause problems in those countries. Think about that...so that a few rich people can speculate on products, and enrich themselves, food prices go through the roof and cause mass starvation in poor countries. Where is the justice in that? It is one of the practices that is currently becoming quite hated in Europe, and eventually I suspect North America will see the harm in it as well.

[FBD]

:lol: you dont understand speculation in the least Joey, so it really doesnt help when you parrot incorrect nonsense.

:lol: I ignored your "facts" because by and large the dont quite meet the definition of "facts" so - why would you expect me to treat them as such? you spew uninformed, backed-up-by-nothing nonsense with regard to republicans, taxes, the environment, you name it. Sorry. Gonna call you when you present conjecture as fact. Present a fact and I'll treat it as such, but when I counter BS with a request to back it up and you take it as my saying "Joey, you are a complete asshole" what the hell do you expect me to do? I cant even figure out a way to debate with people that dont understand what debate even is. Simple things like "ok what are the downstream effects of X" and it get met with :roll: I'm sick of answering your prejudiced republican talking points!

:lol: like I said, keep plucking that chicken!

That said, I dont hate you Joey. About the strongest emotion I can feel for you is...sadness or disappointment, because you have been so hopelessly indoctrinated it seems you are simply well beyond even reasoning with. I hope you prove Churchill correct and we can excuse your overexuberent heart for its youth. :)

[JoeyB]

:lol: you dont understand speculation in the least Joey, so it really doesnt help when you parrot incorrect nonsense.

:lol: I ignored your "facts" because by and large the dont quite meet the definition of "facts" so - why would you expect me to treat them as such? you spew uninformed, backed-up-by-nothing nonsense with regard to republicans, taxes, the environment, you name it. Sorry. Gonna call you when you present conjecture as fact. Present a fact and I'll treat it as such, but when I counter BS with a request to back it up and you take it as my saying "Joey, you are a complete asshole" what the hell do you expect me to do? I cant even figure out a way to debate with people that dont understand what debate even is. Simple things like "ok what are the downstream effects of X" and it get met with :roll: I'm sick of answering your prejudiced republican talking points!

:lol: like I said, keep plucking that chicken!

That said, I dont hate you Joey. About the strongest emotion I can feel for you is...sadness or disappointment, because you have been so hopelessly indoctrinated it seems you are simply well beyond even reasoning with. I hope you prove Churchill correct and we can excuse your overexuberent heart for its youth. :)

I love how everything you say is one long insult about me. Because the truth is you cannot counter my logic and my facts, so instead you drone on about how I am wrong, without actually presenting any facts to demonstrate I am wrong, and then you insult me and speak with the most condescending tones you can muster. Straight out of the Fox News playbook. The funny thing is, you never actually have anything to say, ever, you just pop up, tell people they are wrong and you are right, and then leave.

Oh and, I can place insults in quotes too...as you seem to believe I am saying "FBD, you are a cocksucker" when I reply to you.

You amuse me though, and I won't say why, because that will annoy you and amuse me more.

However, I can see this returning to the way it was last year when we lobbed tennis volleys of insult back and forth. I won't have that, this is my last post to you in my thread here.

[FBD]

...politicians are corporately controlled.
Are you blaming the corporations for this, or are you blaming the politicians for this?


Occupy protests...already happening. And so yes, it is what we will have to do. If we don't stand up to corporate interests, they will continue to run things. I could make a really long, blue post about how Fox News and other conservative outlets have been preprogamming listeners to resist anything that questions the interests of corporate America (can't say how it works in Canada though). Look at the intense, almost rabid hatred of the poor you see in those people. Basic Christian values dictate championing the poor. It's what Christ would do. Basic human compassion says the same thing. So how do you make people back the rich? By making them hate the poor. How do you make people betray morality and faith? By repeating hateful lies. So, everyday those conservative outlets spread constant propaganda about how the poor are all welfare cheats, how they don't pay their fair share, how they are holding America back. Ignore that corporate America is destroying the middle class and creating more poor people...ignore that along with Christian values and compassion, no...those things don't matter.

This is why you hear so much hatred towards the poor from those sources...it's so their listeners will be ready and willing to back the rich regardless of the human cost.

I won't go further, like I said, I could write miles of blue on this...
:lol: Intense, rabid hatred of the poor? HO HO HO...and you sit here accusing me of just making shit up. All of them are welfare cheats, even! Who's destroying the middle class by emburdening them with stagnant growth and huge deficits? You dont appear to be able to logically follow your assertions to completion.


Exactly. And some practices such as futures trading cause problems in those countries. Think about that...so that a few rich people can speculate on products, and enrich themselves, food prices go through the roof and cause mass starvation in poor countries. Where is the justice in that? It is one of the practices that is currently becoming quite hated in Europe, and eventually I suspect North America will see the harm in it as well.
Oh what a concept - I dream of money...and it appears! Again, you have *no fking clue* what speculation is or how it is helpful. Obama stood up on his podium and said "speculators are bad" and that's it, its Gospel!!! :lol:

Joey, I'd counter your logic and facts if they were indeed logic and facts, but like I said, you are parroting from the daily kos and whatever other vitriolic leftist site out there you can find that will do anything say anything to disparage anything conservative, because that's simply the way they've been indoctrinated.

Please start actually backing your shit up so that I may more thoroughly show you the folly of your supposed "logic." I've been giving out historical reference, and you cant even begin to counter it. Facts? Facts? Bueller? Bueller?

I dont get that youre thinking I'm a cocksucker - I get out of you "I'm so fully and completely thoroughly convinced I am correct that I refuse to even consider the fallacies of my approach, much less actually consider a different one."

In other words, mentally....about 15.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Enough....this thread is closed

Don't try and restart this topic for insulting each other again or it too will be closed and somebody will get a week vacation. You have both been put on notice.