New census milestone: Hispanics to hit 50 million

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By HOPE YEN, Associated Press


WASHINGTON – In a surprising show of growth, Hispanics accounted for more than half of the U.S. population increase over the last decade, exceeding estimates in most states. Pulled by migration to the Sun Belt, America's population center edged westward on a historic path to leave the Midwest.

The Census Bureau on Thursday will release its first set of national-level findings from the 2010 count on race and migration, detailing a decade in which rapid minority growth, aging whites and increased suburbanization were the predominant story lines. Geographers estimate that the nation's population center will move southwest about 30 miles and be placed in or near the village of Plato in Texas County, Mo.

"There is excitement," said Brad Gentry, 48, of Houston, Mo., who publishes the weekly paper in Texas County, noting that the U.S. population center typically carries symbolic meaning as the nation's heartland. "It is putting a spotlight on a corner of the world that doesn't get much attention. Most residents are proud of our region and like the idea that others will learn our story through this recognition."

Racial and ethnic minorities are expected to make up an unprecedented 90 percent of the total U.S. growth since 2000, due to immigration and higher birth rates for Latinos.

Based on 2010 census data that has been released so far on a state-by-state basis, the number of Hispanics is now at roughly 47 million with figures for New York, Maine and the District of Columbia to come later Thursday. The 2009 census data estimated the Hispanic count in those places at over 3 million, putting Hispanics on track to exceed 50 million. Demographers widely believe the 50 million threshhold will be reached, with a total count close to 50.5 million.

Currently the fastest growing group, Hispanics now comprise 1 in 6 Americans; among U.S. children, Hispanics are roughly 1 in 4.

According to a Pew Hispanic Center analysis, the 2010 count of Hispanics was on track to be 900,000 higher than expected as their ranks surpassed census estimates in roughly 40 states. Many of their biggest jumps were in the South, including Alabama, Louisiana, North Carolina and Louisiana, where immigrants made large inroads over the last decade.

Asians for the first time had a larger numeric gain than African-Americans, who remained the second largest minority group at roughly 37 million. Based on the 2010 census results released by state so far, multiracial Americans were on track to increase by more than 25 percent, to about roughly 8.7 million.

The number of non-Hispanic whites, whose median age is now 41, edged up slightly to 197 million. Declining birth rates meant their share of the total U.S. population dropped over the last decade from 69 percent to roughly 64 percent.

"This really is a transformational decade for the nation," said William H. Frey, a demographer at Brookings Institution who has analyzed most of the 2010 data. "The 2010 census shows vividly how these new minorities are both leading growth in the nation's most dynamic regions and stemming decline in others."

"They will form the bulk of our labor-force growth in the next decade as they continue to disperse into larger parts of the country," he said.

The final figures come as states in the coming months engage in the contentious process of redrawing political districts based on population and racial makeup, with changes that analysts believe will result in more Hispanic-majority districts.

The population changes will result in a shift of 12 House seats and electoral votes affecting 18 states beginning in the 2012 elections. Most of the states picking up seats, which include Texas and Florida, are Republican-leaning, even as most of their growth is now being driven largely by Democrat-leaning Hispanics.

Among other findings:

_In at least 10 states, the share of children who are minorities has already passed 50 percent, up from five states in 2000. They include Mississippi, Georgia, Maryland, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, California, New Mexico and Hawaii.

_Over the last decade, Latino population growth was most rapid in the South, where many states have seen their Latino populations double since 2000. For the first time, Hispanic population growth outpaced that of blacks and whites in the region, changing the South's traditional "black-white" image.

_More than half of the cities with the largest African-American concentrations showed black population declines in the last decade, including Chicago and Detroit. In contrast, the suburbs of growing southern metro areas like Atlanta, Dallas and Houston saw some of their highest gains.

The Census Bureau calculates the mean U.S. population center every 10 years based on its national head count. The center represents the middle point of the nation's population distribution — the geographic point at which the country would balance if each of its 308.7 million residents weighed the same.

Plato, with a population of 109, is roughly 30 miles southwest of the present mean center in Phelps County, Mo. Based on current U.S. growth, which is occurring mostly in the South and West, the center of population is expected to cross into Arkansas or Oklahoma by midcentury.

The last time the U.S. center fell outside the Midwest was 1850, in the eastern territory now known as West Virginia. Its later move to the Midwest bolstered the region as the nation's cultural heartland in the 20th century, central to U.S. farming and Rust Belt manufacturing sites.

[RBP]

I want affirmative action for me.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

You and me both dude

[RBP]

But you know when whites are in the minority in this country, there will be no such thing.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Of course not, because we will 'deserve it' (being in the minority)

[RBP]

Indeed... we must pay for our sins after all. :rolleyes:

[AntZ]

http://minimages.com/images/34024298043353360431.gif


:cheerlead: :cheerlead:



http://minimages.com/images/41715680398528951697.jpg

[AntZ]

http://minimages.com/images/99381240375799874722.jpg

[Max]

Certain "cultures" have a history of breeding like rabbits...whether they can afford to feed those rabbits or not. Without America's endless entitlement programs for the so-called "disadvantaged" I think population numbers and trends would be quite different. Just my opinion. Viva La Raza!

[RBP]

http://minimages.com/images/34024298043353360431.gif


:cheerlead: :cheerlead:



http://minimages.com/images/41715680398528951697.jpg


:huh:

[FBD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaklEq36_dk

[Binky]

I have neighbors who happen to be Mexican, the woman and I talk, our kids play outside together, the husband repairs things for me that I can't fix. A lot of white folks around, I've yet to see one be as kind or friendly. Usually they're too busy trying to take over the road with their gas guzzling SUVs


http://www.opednews.com/populum/uploaded/american-indian-homeland-securit-21694-20080918-4.jpg

How cynical :outtahere:

[FBD]

You're entirely missing the point.

[Binky]

Am I?

[FBD]

Yeah - you're pointing to an exception, saying how is that bad? Its not people like your neighbors we have problems with. If all illegals were like your neighbors then frankly we wouldnt have an illegal problem here. Unfortunately, there is a significant percentage that come here to plunder our resources and send them back home, utilize public services with abandon, and its large enough that its an issue. So telling us a story of how wonderful your neighbors are is sticking your head in the sand.

[Binky]

It would be, if I didn't realize we're not the only country with illegal immigration issues... Thailand, look at what they have to deal with. The problem is that people see it as a problem without rectifying the situation. I think the severe xenophobia does take a play in this, whether people want to admit it or not. Illegal immigration (In the sense of taking over other people's land and destroying the resources) has been going on since, well, Columbus came, eh? Instead of practicing intolerance, why not begin the transition to cleaner energies, educating the masses... works in theory not in practice, right? But that's a whole different discussion to be had... all in all, the uneducated illegal immigrants who come to the US, something as simple as teaching about family planning, as they've recently started doing in Africa, can make a huge difference. I really don't want to argue how California and New Mexico was theirs to begin with, but they have been very effected by them, slums and what not.... while it is not good, perhaps seeing things from a different angle will help. Thinking back, it was a big issue when the Irish and people viewed as less than, became politicians, history repeats itself... ya know?

of course I could be completely wrong and diluted in a world of my own

[Teh One Who Knocks]

:-s

Whatever you are smoking/drinking/popping this morning, I'd like some :thumbsup:

[FBD]

Yah, and that's specifically why I'm telling you that you're missing the entire point.

Do you think a country should have a border? One that should be enforced and not have anybody simply able to walk on in? And utilize whatever public services they can get their hands on, welfare, housing, education?

If you somehow think clean energy is going to solve the problems caused by too many illegals placing an undue burden on what's offered to citizens, then you are missing some significant parts of the discussion. You think telling them to wrap it it going to reduce the burden they place on our society and services?

So how do you think I'm being intolerant? If anyone is being intolerant, it is #1 our government being intolerant of the laws it swore to uphold, and #2 it is illegals being intolerant of our nation's sovereignty. If I'm being intolerant at all, it is me being intolerant of other's intolerance.


We cant even begin to solve the illegal problem until we close the friggin border. Secure the friggin border.

[Softdreamer]

IMO its pointless trying to stop the immigration, America would do better to make Mexico better and safer.
Then maybe they wouldnt want to leave there in the first place.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

When I first moved to Colorado, I moved into a fairly nice (nothing great or fancy, but decent) apartment complex. That was 16 years ago. Then slowly more and more Mexicans started showing up and moving in. Not all of them were bad, but those that weren't were in the minority. Soon there was loud Mexican music blaring at all hours of the day and night, I heard more \Spanish than English spoken on the property and the place slowly started turning into a dump.

I finally decided that it was time to move when the downstairs neighbors I had was a 'family' of Mexicans were just too much to deal with any longer. There were at least 8 of them living in a 2 bedroom apartment and they were noisy, loud, and rude and not one of them spoke English. Then suddenly one day I came home from work and there was an entirely new group of them living there. I didn't remember seeing anyone move out, so I asked the property groundskeeper who the new people were (he lived in the same building I did). He told me that nobody moved and I proceeded to tell him that there was a completely new group of people downstairs. He told the office and they said that it was impossible. A month or so later, the hallway began to smell and so did my apartment and I know it wasn't from me because it smelled like rotting garbage. Then one night they were making all kinds of noise and when I got up for work that morning, they were gone.

I came home from work that day and the maintenance guys were downstairs in the apartment. They needed to wear respirators because there was so much garbage and human waste in the apartment that the smell would overwhelm them. The carpets all had cigarette burns on practically every square inch and there were holes punched or kicked in every door in the apartment and in some of the walls. There was gang shit spray painted on some of the walls as well.. They had to completely strip that apartment before they could re-rent it.

So please don't try and tell me that just because you are lucky enough to have a nice neighbor that happens to be Mexican that they are all nice people and we are the assholes for not welcoming them with open arms.

[RBP]

IMO its pointless trying to stop the immigration, America would do better to make Mexico better and safer.
Then maybe they wouldnt want to leave there in the first place.

:rolleyes:

[FBD]

IMO its pointless trying to stop the immigration, America would do better to make Mexico better and safer.
Then maybe they wouldnt want to leave there in the first place.

Insane? Asinine? One of the two. Blind, at the very least. Ignore the problem and its somehow going to go away? Make Mexico a better place and somehow that's going to negate the myriad advantages of jumping the border?

Lying down and accepting when you start getting trampled on is only a good strategy if you're resigning yourself to failure.

[Griffin]

I like mexican beer.
I wish more of it would migrate to my fridge.

[Softdreamer]

The fact of the matter is that Mexico is a dangerous place to live. Ignoring that is inhumane, how much tax dollar is wasted treating the symptoms of migration?

Building a nation on xenophobic principles, hypocritical ones at that, is foolish.

[Binky]

Here's the equation, pretend it's your brother, sister, or child, if you need to, hell, pretend it's you... right I know, "that would never be me, or anyone in my family!"

now think, you're just really lucky being born into whatever situation, or horrible life, either way, you have net, you're not in the 3rd world country, so move past that, it could have been your family that was born into dire circumstance, now say "I'd do everything different, I wouldn't act like that": bullshit, you act according to your culture and ethnicity.

all right, pretend, for fun, this is your sibling or child, living like that, in a hut built out of material from a junk yard, or in fetal position with a vulture waiting for you to die( kinda dramatic, sorry) what do you say to your sibling? Sucks to be you, get out of MY country, or hurry up bird, eat that thing...not much there, good luck.
Some interesting rhetoric to be had here, but it doesn't matter anyway, does it.

[AntZ]

Here's the equation, pretend it's your brother, sister, or child, if you need to, hell, pretend it's you... right I know, "that would never be me, or anyone in my family!"

now think, you're just really lucky being born into whatever situation, or horrible life, either way, you have net, you're not in the 3rd world country, so move past that, it could have been your family that was born into dire circumstance, now say "I'd do everything different, I wouldn't act like that": bullshit, you act according to your culture and ethnicity.

all right, pretend, for fun, this is your sibling or child, living like that, in a hut built out of material from a junk yard, or in fetal position with a vulture waiting for you to die( kinda dramatic, sorry) what do you say to your sibling? Sucks to be you, get out of MY country, or hurry up bird, eat that thing...not much there, good luck.
Some interesting rhetoric to be had here, but it doesn't matter anyway, does it.

My dad was born into a two room shack for 7 people during the Great Depression, (one room was a kitchen), just outside of Albuquerque New Mexico. He watched his sister die due to lack of health care then his mother died for the same reason when he was 12!

By your rationale, he should have not amounted to anything! He grew up leading all his classes because of his determination to study. And no, he got no help from his hopeless alcoholic father! He and his brothers worked and bought a gas station then parlayed that into a service center then into a full blown trucking company by 1960! A couple of his brothers were alcoholics like his father, and they ruined the company eventually leading to it's breakup. Encouraged by my mom, he started over and also went back to school obtaining multiple degrees while working full-time and maintaining a family. He also became a part time professor as well and provided his family with a very comfortable upper middle class lifestyle. He achieved this without the help of his parents, or grants, social programs or any other government hand outs. His childhood was beyond sad and hopeless, but he managed only from hard work and good decisions.

So frankly, the whole bleeding heart argument that people can't achieve anything because of their bad environment or without assistance and government handouts is a steaming crock of shit!

[Binky]

By my rational... where did I say handouts? I said education and tolerance, this is about how the population will effect the US. Simply stating, a change needs to occur in general public thought about the situation at hand. Don't twist my words.

[AntZ]

Here's the equation, pretend it's your brother, sister, or child, if you need to, hell, pretend it's you... right I know, "that would never be me, or anyone in my family!"

now think, you're just really lucky being born into whatever situation, or horrible life, either way, you have net, you're not in the 3rd world country, so move past that, it could have been your family that was born into dire circumstance, now say "I'd do everything different, I wouldn't act like that": bullshit, you act according to your culture and ethnicity.




By my rational... where did I say handouts? I said education and tolerance, this is about how the population will effect the US. Simply stating, a change needs to occur in general public thought about the situation at hand. Don't twist my words.


You were talking about people being born into a hopeless situation!


it could have been your family that was born into dire circumstance, now say "I'd do everything different, I wouldn't act like that": bullshit, you act according to your culture and ethnicity.

Well, I had a family member born into horrible and hopeless poverty and he rose from it!

Your argument is convoluted and goes in many directions only separated by commas. I was addressing one of your ideas as written, and the point about "handouts" is the fact that no one can use excuse that due to the lack of any kind helping hand prevents people from bettering their lives.

[FBD]

Here's the equation, pretend it's your brother, sister, or child, if you need to, hell, pretend it's you... right I know, "that would never be me, or anyone in my family!"

now think, you're just really lucky being born into whatever situation, or horrible life, either way, you have net, you're not in the 3rd world country, so move past that, it could have been your family that was born into dire circumstance, now say "I'd do everything different, I wouldn't act like that": bullshit, you act according to your culture and ethnicity.

all right, pretend, for fun, this is your sibling or child, living like that, in a hut built out of material from a junk yard, or in fetal position with a vulture waiting for you to die( kinda dramatic, sorry) what do you say to your sibling? Sucks to be you, get out of MY country, or hurry up bird, eat that thing...not much there, good luck.
Some interesting rhetoric to be had here, but it doesn't matter anyway, does it.

Does putting yourself into Manson's shoes and empathizing with his actions make them okay?

No, ok, now you can toss the rest of that halfass argument out the window. Just because somebody else may not have it all that great wherever they are living DOES NOT in any way shape or form make it okay for them to come jump our border and start leeching off of a society they do not belong to, a place it isnt legal for them to be unless they get in line like every other hopeful motherfucker trying to get into this country.

How on earth can you substitute your mind for your heart and ignore all of the ill effects? Godssakes, when the goose that lays the golden eggs gets a fucking tapeworm, a tick, an infection - you take it to the doctor and blast that shit with medicine that kills it, you do not say oh...well, we feel for that poor tapeworm, if he werent in our golden goose's stomach he might have it hard out there somewhere in the world, so let's let him stay and disease our golden goose...

Oh, shit, the goose isnt laying too many eggs anymore...think we should take it to a doc?

No? Let the tapeworm stay????

Seriously??

Education and tolerance my ass - so telling people repeatedly that this is all okay will make the root problem go away? Who introduced you to the concept of logic?

You need to examine yourself and figure out how you can balance compassion with a level head. Only being able to assess a situation from your heart you are missing a significant part of the equation - Its as bad as a guy who can but only think with his dick!!!

Sorry that's harsh, but really...completely ignoring significant factors of reality. You're making halfassed excuses for why we should just let anyone in whenever they want for whatever reason, all they have to do is NOT follow legal precedent and that makes it okay?

[Binky]

Since clearly illegal immigration is not going to stop anytime soon, what is the solution?

If the facts are twisted (and they are) as much as what I have said has been twisted (and how it has)- I don't know how to describe it... ad hominems and using straw man, using fallacies to defeat an argument speaks for itself. Look into some information from legitimate sources, Fox news and associated press-both well known for skewing information and are not reliable.

Looking at the history of the world and the wars which have taken place, these fears are inevitable if things continue on the ignorant path they're on
hehe... and we're all pretty fucked
Keep ignoring the people the ones with PhD's, other scholars and the scientists, who have done studies on the situation (there are journals and books available for the public ;))...people who have solutions that are quite capable of solving some of the major problems, keep ignoring the actual facts which have been twisted only to make a good headline. Keep reading crap news, then proceed to bitch and whine about it, it's working.

[FBD]

:lol: talk about straw man arguments - I made analogies, you are merely attempting to insult "my information source!"

"Clearly its not going to stop anytime soon" - well, that is because clearly, the US government is not interested in stopping illegal immigration!!!! Close. Up. The. F'n. Border. NOW. If you do not take step ONE, how are you going to get to step 5...10...in the process? Yes, all the illegals that are currently here we're not likely to remove (unless of course they succeed in making the USA into a brokeass shithole) but to grant asylum for that without closing the border is just kicking the can down the road, asking for the problem to be worse later on because its "too tough" to deal with at present. As if it somehow will be easier in the future.

Do you honestly think if a proper amount of resources were allocated to the task it could not be done?? For the cost of a b2 bomber it could be done. For the cost of two, it could be done decently well.


Sorry, I re-read your last post about 5 times and I dont understand what point you're trying to make. All I got was "I dont have a rebuttal and I'm floundering." Again, you didnt even take me to task on the arguments I presented - you flung an insult off at fox news and patted the asses of some "intellectuals and professors" (as if they are the guardians of all true knowledge)....you think that's some sort of rebuttal? :lol:

You can do better than that. Rationalize your position. Faults have been pointed out in your reasoning and you havent addressed it but deflected to place the light of focus elsewhere so that you dont have to fully rationalize it. Can you??

[Binky]

Faults have been pointed out in your reasoning and you havent addressed it but deflected to place the light of focus elsewhere so that you dont have to fully rationalize it. Can you??
I'd argue it if the faults were faults, I pointed out the exact arguments that would be made, which prove my point, that so and so's father grew up in the Great Depression and made it through, that's exactly it, the resources were there to be had. America is, especially during that time frame, Horatio Alger philosophy derived, it is exactly what the families who are currently still in decent financial standings did. I'm trying to think of a way to make this absolutely clear.... he was not alone, if we are were we are right now (and our family was here during the depression, for sake of argument), we had a relation make it through the depression by using every resource available. My family did too, why I didn't defend it, it's irrelevant if you understand the concept of the point I was making, as an argument, again, because it actually backs up my argument that we do what is in our culture, our ethnicity and standards we were born into and taught by our parents and their parents and down the line. I can't control that some people don't think other ethnicities don't have a right to decent living conditions because of bad experiences, I've had them too, so there goes that one, I know not all people are the same, it doesn't matter what your race, creed, nationality, there are bad apples in every group.
I think explaining every single thing to a macro point is insane and diverts from the topic, which is why they are fallacious arguments, and exactly why I said, and here you'll say "this" and here you'll say "this". Because it's predictable, at this point it's also futile... I don't know why the hell I'm typing this.
That saying, minds are like parachutes, they don't work unless they're open

I saw shit almost exactly the same way you guys did (probably embarrassingly worse), until I saw how wrong I was. I apologize you see what I said as a sorry rebuttal. Can I fully rationalize it? Absolutely, I'm just surprised it's necessary, as I've had this conversation well past this point with other people, to the point of solutions and problems with those solutions for the given issue, this is going nowhere, it's all a matter of what is popular and who influenced your thought, and yes, if those sources are absolutely proven wrong... what does that say? It seems to be the general trend, so I say forget it. Not worth anymore thought here, think what you will and judge how you want.
It's all good.

[FBD]

I can't control that some people don't think other ethnicities don't have a right to decent living conditions because of bad experiences,

Ah, there's a big part of the issue right there. #1, why are you assuming racism, like this is a matter of not liking a particular group of people? This is about the rule of law. I no more want a white man jumping the border to get in here than I do a black, hispanic, chinese or pashtun for that matter. If you arent walking in through the door, there is a problem.

Issue #2, simply put,

you do not have the power to invent rights.

Do you know what a "right" is? Yes, let's listen to one of those esteemed intellectuals you said we should listen to, who calls things as they are in the world - Walter E Williams explains it very well here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrT0kBeld3Q

"A right does not confer an obligation on another. For example, my right of free speech does not confer an obligation on you. My right to travel to another state does not confer an obligation on you."

So you're going to pitch your argument based on your belief in a fictitious "right" that does not exist as a right, it exists as an obligation, as a service, that one must necessarily provide to another? That is not a "right" and as such the very foundation of your argument begins to fall apart right there. Healthcare, equal living, equal outcomes, the "right" to collectively bargain....these are all usurpations of the concept of a "right." In calling something like that a "right" you are necessarily diverging from the very definition of the word. You're trying to tell me that an illegal has a RIGHT to bust into this country and demand we support him? Third world countries have a RIGHT to our charity? Nay, they have a RIGHT to the product of our efforts??? Whereas juxtaposed next to one another we somehow have less of a right to the fruits of our own labors and efforts?

It helps if you take your ideas and convictions to their logical conclusions and then see if you still support them.

What are you really trying to say? That entire last post was basically still trying to empathize with one who breaks a law for the sake of themselves or their family. Oh, I quite understand that people have motivations. We all do. Does that make it any more or less legal? Does that make it any more or less detrimental? I recognize the nature of these drives, but I do not give people a pass if one decides that he has no other choice but to break the law. Especially in this regard where an outright ignoring of the law has wound up becoming a burden on the entire country.

So what made you realize how wrong you were? I honestly cant imagine anything outside of....guilt. In which case, why are you faulting your predecessors for their success? Why are you faulting yourself for their success? Mine busted their ass to get here, through the door, the proper way, did well, and I enjoy the life I do partially because of their efforts.

That is proper. It is good to be charitable...but forced charity is theft, just as a good life, housing, job, are outcomes from you fulfilling your obligations, not some "right" that you automatically receive the benefit of.

Now that we've established this is about the rule of law and not racism, I'm really still baffled at how you're reaching your conclusion...I'm willing to listen, though I most likely will not agree, I'm just trying to figure it...most liberal/progressive ideas have major logical flaws, and I cant seem to get people (supporters) to back them up and draw them out to a sensible conclusion when I point out the fallacies, its cut and run every time. I'm just not going to allow arbitrary redefining of terms, so if you're hellbent on telling me that "a good living" is a right then...well, yeah, you're wrong and I guess we wont breach that impasse.

[AntZ]

I saw shit almost exactly the same way you guys did (probably embarrassingly worse), until I saw how wrong I was. I apologize you see what I said as a sorry rebuttal. Can I fully rationalize it? Absolutely, I'm just surprised it's necessary, as I've had this conversation well past this point with other people


So the classic leftest ending, of any argument, comes out in the end! :roll:

You were once even more lost and in the dark then we all are, including the A.P. and Fox News. Then at some point, you found truth and enlightenment! Now you can look down and marvel at all us foolish ones as we are so hopelessly without this enlightened knowledge. :(

So fill us in!

Where do we find "truth" in the media? Unlike the evil Fox News and A.P.?

Where are these scholars and intellectuals in the ivory towers that can show us the light?

Please share some more of your deep thought that's been acquired from living next to a Mexican family!

I know I have no experience with Mexican people! Aside from traveling all over Mexico and being from Southern California, the Mecca for Mexicans. And the fact that I was a Reserve Deputy Sheriff and dealt with the unpleasant side of them. And I can't forget the fact that in the company I ran, I did a tremendous amount of business with Mexican people and spoke with them on a daily basis.

But please share some truth with me that you've learned in your awakening that could erase a lifetime of my experiences!

I look forward to the awakening! :woot:

[Softdreamer]

I look forward to the awakening! :woot:

Like all things worth learning, it cannot be taught.
You have to figure things out for yourself.

Being told what is wrong or right is part of the problem in the first place. Deep down we all know when something feels wrong, and when you start to analyse everything from the very beginning, without prejudice, you may just stumble on some free thinking. and in that moment you will know.

There are bad sides to everybody, because we are human. and most of us only every get to see a balanced view of a handful of people in our lifetime. Some of us are so closed minded that they never see the complete picture of anyone.

Take a little from everything, but dont accept the whole. you will build your own jigsaw puzzle eventually. and it will NOT look like anything you've seen before.

You may think im talking bollocks, and if you wont accept that you yourself are not all knowing and all seeing, then you are more foolish than you first appeared to be.

No offence.

[FBD]

:lol: Did it ever occur to you that we *have* figured things out for ourselves, and drawing upon the entirety, came to the very conclusions we're presenting? "Free thinking" somehow engenders "free....everything!!!"???? Except when you...hm, draw it out to its logical conclusion, and you see the bill on the table when the meal's done...

[AntZ]

Like all things worth learning, it cannot be taught.
You have to figure things out for yourself.

Being told what is wrong or right is part of the problem in the first place. Deep down we all know when something feels wrong, and when you start to analyse everything from the very beginning, without prejudice, you may just stumble on some free thinking. and in that moment you will know.

There are bad sides to everybody, because we are human. and most of us only every get to see a balanced view of a handful of people in our lifetime. Some of us are so closed minded that they never see the complete picture of anyone.

Take a little from everything, but dont accept the whole. you will build your own jigsaw puzzle eventually. and it will NOT look like anything you've seen before.

You may think im talking bollocks, and if you wont accept that you yourself are not all knowing and all seeing, then you are more foolish than you first appeared to be.

No offence.

I got it now!

You see, I'm still a kid and I haven't had the years you and Binky have had to really wake up and see what the world is all about!

I think I'll just go to a car lot tomorrow and drive away with a new car because I feel it's wrong for the evil car companies to only allow the wealthy to have new cars! If the police chase me, I'll just tell them that I deserve a new car as a human right! :thumbsup:


:rolleyes:

So your in the same mind set as this other person, you will just make up your mind that anyone that disagrees with you is ignorant, wrong, or still in the dark and need their enlightenment! Now it's clear who are the truly close minded! And so typical that the people that can't provide any evidence or a strong point of view are the first to just paint their opposition with a blanket judgement! Just pathetic!


_______________

I have a new position!

Open borders for all countries! :cheerlead: And no one should be allowed to own houses either, if someone climbs through your window and claims your bed as their own, that's the new world!

[Pony]

Lets not let this get out of hand folks. All are passionate about their views, please don't let it turn into personal attacks.

[Binky]

Sorry to imply anything that says I know more, or you know less, anything, I know very, very little.

I know I voted republican this last year... lol

I know on Ellis Island there is a famous quote:
"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"
cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your
poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
—Emma Lazarus, 1883





I know these people are coming here, and it doesn't bother me, but a solution needs to be found, instead of wasting time with arguing



I know it is wrong to let people live like this, if they want help



The Ayn Rand philosophy, "The Virtue of Selfishness" explains all of what Williams said and more, but hand outs aren't necessary , the money which goes to war, preventing aliens, all of it wasted...



God and you know, it breaks my heart to think this could be someone I love.



and I see this






and I know there is an axiom here.

[Loser]

Kinda like the reverse of the panda's eh? Wont fuck to save their own species, while certain human cultures are fucking themselves into starvation...

I have no sympathy for cultures that fuck themselves into starvation, nor do i have sympathy for the 100,000+ fat asses that die each year due to obesity.

Does that make me evil? I would think not. Apathetic? Definitely.

One saying someone told me long ago has stuck with me, and it rings true in almost every situation.

People create their own misery.

As for the 50+ mil Hispanics in america? Learn spanish, because eventually your life, job, and culture will depend on it. Those that fail to acknowledge or accept this will be left behind. Times change, you have to adapt.

[Softdreamer]

I think I'll just go to a car lot tomorrow and drive away with a new car because I feel it's wrong for the evil car companies to only allow the wealthy to have new cars! If the police chase me, I'll just tell them that I deserve a new car as a human right! :thumbsup:

NO. I am not talking about materialism, property, money or human rights.


So your in the same mind set as this other person, you will just make up your mind that anyone that disagrees with you is ignorant, wrong, or still in the dark and need their enlightenment! Now it's clear who are the truly close minded! And so typical that the people that can't provide any evidence or a strong point of view are the first to just paint their opposition with a blanket judgement! Just pathetic!


Consider the really big picture. This planet has been around for a few billion years. But even that is nothing compared to the Universe as a whole.
Anything you or I achieve means nothing when compared to everything else out there.
Your life and mine will amount to nothing compared to this. Nothing we do would be anything more than graffiti on the beauty of nature.

Even the human species will amount to nothing if we continue in this selfish greedy out for my own interests attitude.
I am no Communist (perhaps that will put you at ease) But I do believe that unless things change drastically there wont be much more opportunity for us to make things worse. Id give us maybe a couple of hundred years.

Now consider the OP. It was a measure of the ethnic history of current residents of America...
Then read this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12851772

Who can really claim to call America their land, and justify the unfair treatment of others in that name.

[FBD]

Who can really claim to call America their land, and justify the unfair treatment of others in that name.

Who can really claim to call America "their land"??? Americans, that's who!!! In case you didnt notice, the world has a sort of order to it, f*kd up though as it may be at times - and this is not frickin star trek, we do not have unlimited energy to provide for everyone, so until such time you need to get your own group of people in order and do something constructive with yourselves and build up a nation.

Surprise, the model that allows the most freedoms has produced incredible amounts of prosperity.

The ability to produce energy strongly correlates with how affable a society can be. Accept some reality; we are not even close to ahead of that curve yet. Until such time, we cannot be the policemen of the world, the protectors of the world, the providers of the world...without being able to take care of #1 right here at home. And when you have an infestation of something that causes stress fractures here at home, you have an issue.

So sorry. Following the established rule of law will result in more affability, more power production, more happiness and stability that can be passed on to these nations - it must trickle down for now since we arent ahead of that energy curve, it cant be handed out like candy, like brand new car keys to a 16 year old that hasnt needed to clean a plate in his entire life. These other countries "dont have parents that can afford to just buy them a new car and take care of their every need until they're 36 and sorta ready to move out." They have halfass parents that have a bit of a drinking and gambling problem and cant afford to send them to college or but them a wii and tell them to get their ass out and get a job when they're 17.

Make sense? Refer to Mr Williams "wishes."

[Softdreamer]

America's reliance on Energy for growth isn't getting their economy anywhere. It is NOT a stable long term strategy. Regardless of how they have managed to scrape the barrel until now. What happens when the oil runs out?

Based upon you principles, if aliens landed tomorrow and decided that the US of A was the best country to set up their home in, they would have a right to kick out all the humans, because the majority of Americans (by their standards) are stupid lazy and not worthy of living there?

Selfish greed, and a look after your own attitude will get one person/family to the top of the world, but get a species wiped out.
Your choice.

[FBD]

:lol: do you think that because you include but an aspect of an opposing argument that necessarily means your correlations are applicable in the least?

"Reliance on energy for growth" - if you're trying to tie that in to our economic issues, we have other problems that are only exacerbated by spikes in energy prices, but they are not the root cause in the least. Most of our economic issues arise from the government playing favorites and distorting markets - basically departures from capitalism. If the playing field were level and entities were treated equally, we would not be in the mess we are in. The gov of USA has yet again succeeded in causing problems and making long protracted solutions that make sure we're in the slump longer than we should be.

If aliens invaded...why cripes, other than we'd be dealing with an opponent who has a higher level of technology, we'd still be having unwanted beings just appearing in our country - although the aliens probably wouldnt want welfare!



Since I have to explain the main idea of the paragraph like we were taught in third grade;

Fact:

Energy and cheaper access to it is what has made the lives of umpteen millions more robust, safer, healthier. The planet was never able to sustain anywhere close to what we have now because we never had 1) the technology and 2) the energy to support said paradigm. We count grow enough food, transport it, etc.

Bitch about "American's bloodlust for oil" - but...bullshit, the human race has a bloodlust for oil. Are you ok with Libya being bombed and such? Where's France, Italy, a bunch or european countries get a whole bunch of their oil from? Amazingly enough, the UN moved pretty damned fast on it when the impetus came from a NOT-USA who had some skin in the game...not like on Iraq where all it could do was issue worthless pieces of paper. They didnt give two shits about the Iraqi people who had it WAY worse off under Saddam, but now...cripes, that Gaddafi...we're GOT to do something about him :roll:

This is how its coming across:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyCdfOXvec

Its funny because you're so shortsighted you dont even realize that the way forward I'm describing is actually the best for everyone and will result in the fastest increases in technology, the fastest increases in support, the fastest increases in the wealth and prosperity of third world nations. Its just not going to do a quarter-assed job more quickly like what you're proposing.

The problem is, it requires you to drop your envy and jealousy of other's successes! And therein lies the problem with the "everything must be shared" mentality - the ensuing gridlock is also shared.

[RBP]

@FBD - that video is pretty spot on

[St. George]

:-s FBD & RBP.........one of you is gonna have to change your name.

[Arkady Renko]

I have neighbors who happen to be Mexican, the woman and I talk, our kids play outside together, the husband repairs things for me that I can't fix. A lot of white folks around, I've yet to see one be as kind or friendly. Usually they're too busy trying to take over the road with their gas guzzling SUVs


http://www.opednews.com/populum/uploaded/american-indian-homeland-securit-21694-20080918-4.jpg

How cynical :outtahere:

God forbid someone had to consider them as actual people...it makes it so hard to hate them.


You're entirely missing the point.


Am I?

yeah, cause you don't agree with him. Duh.

[FBD]

God forbid someone had to consider them as actual people...it makes it so hard to hate them.





yeah, cause you don't agree with him. Duh.

Again, this is not about racism. This is about the rule of law and cascading effects caused by the acceptable ignorance and dismissal of such.

I've provided pretty clear reasoning for how I feel the way I feel, economic, social and more. Binky & softdreamer have but paid lip service to a warped version of "compassion" and have provided no other reasoning than if you dont just open up and give it all away, then you are greedy.

Treating people equally means you use the same measuring stick. It doesnt mean that everyone gets gifts.

[Softdreamer]

FBD
You obviously have very strong views and are not willing to change them. Even in the face of human suffering.

Warped compassion???
All I'm talking about is live and let live, and an end to exploitation.

I mearly suggested that part of Mexicos problem may be caused by America, and that the current situation is not working.

that is all.

[Loser]

edit.. because i really dont want to piss people off with my rantings about how my hard earned money should help people i dont even fucking know when i cant even help loved ones who are homeless and destitute.

Put up a secured border between the U.S and Mexico. Bring our fucking jobs back to this country and let our economy get stable again. Then, and only then, should we as a country worry about OTHER nations problems.

[FBD]

SD, you simply do not seem to understand that a certain amount of suffering is going to happen regardless of our compassionate efforts - and if those efforts are misplaced then they will not reach the same level of fruition. By allowing exploitation of our laws like the authorities have done and illegals have taken advantage of, they have created a contentious situation both for illegals as well as citizens.

So yes, I'm all for getting rid of this exploitation - the exploitation of our country, laws, and good will.

"Part of" Mexico's problems...have the Mexicans no responsibility of their own? We somehow "did something" to Mexico that made them economically shitty and overrun with warlords?? Did we force them to disarm their citizens leaving them helpless? Do you think that Mexico is better off with our border porous and drugs free flowing, the cartels having control of the border? Or do you think Mexicans in general would be better off with a solidly closed border and they are forced to get their cartels in order, in line, in jail?

Saying "the current setup isnt working" is pretty obvious - but what's your solution? Get rid of the border altogether so that whomever wants to can just walk on in to the USA? What's more compassionate, giving a man a fish, or teaching him to fish and then expecting him to go out and catch his own goddam fish? I'd assert that giving a man a fish over and over and over again is LESS compassionate because you are making him less of a man, reliant on others for his well being, unable to become all he otherwise might be with a little bit of discipline and hard work under his belt. But you have to be "less compassionate" for that moment and tell him this is something he needs to learn and make him go fish - yes, denying him fish!!!

We cant solve Mexico's problems. Mexico has to. But why should we be expected to be responsible for solving them? People generally dont want the USA to go in and solve a country's problems, that's looked down upon. Why shouldnt we take care of our own problems?

You dont think a ton of people that shouldnt be here putting stress on our institutions and services is a problem??? We should just ignore the issue? Like I said before, it doesnt sound like you have any idea of a possible solution, you just think that compassion will solve everything and we all ride off into the sunset holding hands if we could only get along and stop hating.

I'm saying, you need a reality check - compassion is a great asset, but you cannot simply ignore reality. So, even in the face of human suffering, sometimes the best course forward is a tough one that may not appear to be the most "helpful" at the get go.

Ever seen a teacher not respond to a student when a student asks a rather obvious question? A good one will know when the student just needs to figure it out for themselves. The learning process happens, growth takes place - not a handout and an expectation.

Tough love, brother. Tough love. Sometimes its necessary to uphold the order of things. Unfortunately you're viewing this a little too narrowly to see that the "shut the borders" approach is more beneficial and compassionate in the long run. Not to mention, better for the country, the world by extension.

[FBD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKc6esIi0_U

[Binky]

OK, well, there is always a happy, or not so happy middle ground, build a big wall, like the Great Wall of China, (that did fail in keeping out the Mongols) [ Do you want this in MLA or Chicago? I really don't like APA..jk ] or the Berlin wall was excellent, at least the guards who shot anyone who tried to cross had good aim... tangent, walls don't work, the problem is inevitability. Straight out genocide, UN won't take too kindly to that...
According to the US National Academy of Sciences and Britain's Royal Society -who the hell are they right? "Humanity is approaching a crisis point with respect to the interlocking issues of population, environment, and development." Mexico City's population was 3 million in 1950, 2000, it's population 18.1 million, 2015 iit is projected to be at 20.6 million. (United Nations Population Division)
Why does this matter to the US?
1. Fossil fuel consumption
http://www.earthsci.org/education/teacher/basicgeol/fossil_fuels/world-oil-reserves.jpg
how much we use, how much we produce, and how much is left, we need it to keep our economy going.
Information on how much is left of the fossil fuels varies, but it's looking like it will run dry in about 43-50 years, give or take a decade. Should we perhaps at the very least start a transition to other sources?

2. pollution
Because global warming is :bs:.. (hah)
"No single bit of scientific evidence makes a convincing argument that global warming is having an impact on wildlife and plants, but the cumulative evidence cannot be ignored.The question is no longer 'Is global warming happening?' The question is, what are we going to do about it?" Doug Inkley (another nobody)

google the info if it's really necessary, start with air pollutants and their effects, also Mexico's contribution to pollution, I'm too lazy to type that much.

How is this relevant? Resources, again, whether we like it or not, the illegal immigrants are here and more are coming.
Population control, food production/consumption, impact from increase in fossil fuel use
I'm sick of typing
the question is, do you want the people who come here, to come here uneducated and rarin to pop out more kids? Or do you think educating them to use birth control is not worth it? What costs more, here and now, or later? When it comes to economy, think of the world as a whole, it's much safer that way...
Mexico itself, wow... what a friggin mess... clean it up, or leave it and let it continue to rapidly deplete our current conditions? Hell, take it over if you want! More land, more resources, if they're educated, this is possible. If things continue as they are :think: (This probably sounds more heartless than the 'let them keep climbing the walls,float in on inner tubes, or let them die where they are plan) Thing is, they're not dying, they're starving, suffering, living in inhumane conditions, but certainly not dying off.. that won't happen in our lifetimes. Unless we nuke um? There's a thought.. joking..
Is it all gibberish still?

Any thoughts on how China owns the US? :mrgreen:

[Hal-9000]

It's easy for me to see both sides of this issue...I was in the 'compassion' camp but I think there's a lot of merit in FBD's last post (#51)

We have a similar, albeit it not so prevalent problem up here in Canada with native Indians.I used to think that we rolled in and took their land for a song and now they're bearing the brunt of what happened 200 years ago.

That's not the case.Our government gives Indians monetary supplements, tax breaks, breaks on food and living expenses and they're exempt from a lot of daily bills that we 'native Canadians' must pay.

Like the Mexicans, our Indians have taken advantage of the situation.They've become complacent, with most becoming welfare casualties and alcoholics.In our country it's not so much about migration or immigration, it's about having an opportunity and squandering it.

I often wonder what would happen to the US's economy if tomorrow....all illegals were deported.Perhaps touching on part of FBD's post, part of the problem is due to American companies hiring the cheap labor and turning a blind eye to the problem (and the law) But for the most part, Mexicans have to stop wandering over that border in search of work/living and they have to start rebuilding the infrastructure within their own country.

[Griffin]

Since it's conception as a nation, Mexico has been wrought with a corrupt government intent on exploiting it's people!
So why are the people of The United States of America responsible for Mexico's' predicament?

We have our own needs to feed the babies who don't have enough to eat.
Shoe the children with no shoes on their feet.
House the people livin' in the street.
Oh, oh, there's a solution
Time keeps on slippin' Into the future

[Loser]

I saw this picture and it instantly made me think of this thread....

http://i55.tinypic.com/x3fio.jpg

[FBD]

OK, well, there is always a happy, or not so happy middle ground, build a big wall, like the Great Wall of China, (that did fail in keeping out the Mongols) [ Do you want this in MLA or Chicago? I really don't like APA..jk ] or the Berlin wall was excellent, at least the guards who shot anyone who tried to cross had good aim... tangent, walls don't work, the problem is inevitability. Straight out genocide, UN won't take too kindly to that...
According to the US National Academy of Sciences and Britain's Royal Society -who the hell are they right? "Humanity is approaching a crisis point with respect to the interlocking issues of population, environment, and development." Mexico City's population was 3 million in 1950, 2000, it's population 18.1 million, 2015 iit is projected to be at 20.6 million. (United Nations Population Division)
Why does this matter to the US?
1. Fossil fuel consumption

how much we use, how much we produce, and how much is left, we need it to keep our economy going.
Information on how much is left of the fossil fuels varies, but it's looking like it will run dry in about 43-50 years, give or take a decade. Should we perhaps at the very least start a transition to other sources?

2. pollution
Because global warming is :bs:.. (hah)
"No single bit of scientific evidence makes a convincing argument that global warming is having an impact on wildlife and plants, but the cumulative evidence cannot be ignored.The question is no longer 'Is global warming happening?' The question is, what are we going to do about it?" Doug Inkley (another nobody)

google the info if it's really necessary, start with air pollutants and their effects, also Mexico's contribution to pollution, I'm too lazy to type that much.

How is this relevant? Resources, again, whether we like it or not, the illegal immigrants are here and more are coming.
Population control, food production/consumption, impact from increase in fossil fuel use
I'm sick of typing
the question is, do you want the people who come here, to come here uneducated and rarin to pop out more kids? Or do you think educating them to use birth control is not worth it? What costs more, here and now, or later? When it comes to economy, think of the world as a whole, it's much safer that way...
Mexico itself, wow... what a friggin mess... clean it up, or leave it and let it continue to rapidly deplete our current conditions? Hell, take it over if you want! More land, more resources, if they're educated, this is possible. If things continue as they are :think: (This probably sounds more heartless than the 'let them keep climbing the walls,float in on inner tubes, or let them die where they are plan) Thing is, they're not dying, they're starving, suffering, living in inhumane conditions, but certainly not dying off.. that won't happen in our lifetimes. Unless we nuke um? There's a thought.. joking..
Is it all gibberish still?

Any thoughts on how China owns the US? :mrgreen:

-You'll notice that I continually referred to energy, not oil. Sure we're going to run out of oil at some point. That's not my point - I was making a correlation between energy availability and affluence, it is a strong one. What's transitioning to other energy sources aside from oil got to do with closing our border and controlling who comes in and out? (and the resultant increase in Order thereof...)

-You're stuck on the assumption that there is absolutely nothing we can do to keep illegals out. You made two terrible comparisons that have moderate at best correlation. Our problem with securing the border is not technical, it is political.

-Do you think we're NOT educating and taking care of the illegals we already have? They're in our schoolz, eatin ur mealz, takin ur quizzez...um...edumucate them a little better??? (of course we cant have that discussion without bringing teachers unions into this argument but now that's getting a little out of scope, I dont want to bring in all these other pretty well irrelevant subjects to straw man and obfuscate, why would you want to do that?) What's that got to do with keeping new ones from coming in?

-How many times in the past have people warned of population bombs? How many times has our technology overcome it?




How many different ways are you guys going to avoid addressing the crux of the argument? The border needs to be closed and the flow of illegals (et al) across the border needs to stop. What's the problem with doing that???

[Binky]

Whether the border is open, blocked, or guarded, there are people still crossing.
I agree,and you make some good points, I completely understand where you are coming from, but what is the solution?

[FBD]

Like I said, the problem is political not technical. We do have the technical means, if we decide to implement them. You cant blame a pithy sub-sub-par implementation for not working.

I dont mean to come across like a dick but its like you guys are saying this is an issue of we have no compassion or we're racist or whatever...and that's simply not the case. :)