Gun Ownership Up, Crime Down

[Acid Trip]

The last sentence is the best.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/18/gun-ownership-up-crime-down/

Gun-control advocates are noticeably silent when crime rates decline. Their multimillion-dollar lobbying efforts are designed to manufacture mass anxiety that every gun owner is a potential killer. The statistics show otherwise.

Last week, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) announced that violent crime decreased 4 percent in 2011. The number of murders, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults all went down, continuing a pattern.

“This is not a one-year anomaly, but a steady decline in the FBI’s violent-crime rates,” said Andrew Arulanandam, spokesman for the National Rifle Association. “It would be disingenuous for anyone to not credit increased self-defense laws to account for this decline.”

Mr. Arulanandam pointed out that only a handful of states had concealed-carry programs 25 years ago, when the violent-crime rate peaked. Today, 41 states either allow carrying without a permit or have “shall issue” laws that make it easy for just about any noncriminal to get a permit. Illinois and Washington, D.C., are the only places that refuse to recognize the right to bear arms. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence did not respond to requests for comment.

If the gun grabbers were right, we’d be in the middle of a crime wave, considering how many guns are on the streets. “Firearms sales have increased substantially since right after the 2008 election,” said Bill Brassard, spokesman for the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), which represents the $4 billion firearms and ammunition industry. “There was a leveling off in 2010, but now we’re seeing a surge again.”

The FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) serves as one of the best indicators of gun sales because it counts each time someone buys a gun. Checks hit an all-time high of 16.5 million last year. In the first five months of this year, the numbers have gone up 10 percent over the same period last year as Americans rush to the gun store in case President Obama decides to exercise “more flexibility” in restricting guns in a second term.

Gun manufacturing is the one private-sector industry “doing fine” on Mr. Obama’s watch. Sturm, Ruger & Co. sold 1 million firearms in the first quarter of 2012 - an amazing 50 percent increase from the first quarter of 2011. The jump was so steep that the company stopped accepting orders from March to May to catch up with demand for its products.

Last month, Smith & Wesson announced a firearm-order backlog of approximately $439 million by the end of April, up 135 percent from the same quarter in 2011. Sales in that period were up 28 percent from 2011 and 14 percent over its own predictions to investors. NSSF estimates the industry is responsible for approximately 180,000 jobs and has an annual impact on the U.S. economy of $28 billion.

Mr. Obama could honestly take credit for this jobs program, economic boost and the reduction in violent crime that has followed the spike in gun ownership on his watch. Instead, he’s silent about his greatest positive accomplishment.

[minz]

To be fair, every gun owner is a potential killer, I just guess it depends on how you choose to see it, if you have a gun then you have a capacity to kill, be that in self defence, but never the less it's there. I don't see what gun control in the US would possibly serve now as this has been part of the US culture for as long as most can remember, it's too deeply embedded in society to even consider changing it.

[Muddy]

As long as we have all these whacked out, funked up peoples that hate me for my color and are armed to the hilt.. It's what levels the playing field when you're dealing with someone that has a different value of life than yourself.

[Hal-9000]

a 4% drop of violent crimes doesn't negate the fact that firearms are still too easy to get and that lunatics spray handfuls of innocent people at schools and local McDonalds..

[Acid Trip]

To be fair, every gun owner is a potential killer, I just guess it depends on how you choose to see it, if you have a gun then you have a capacity to kill, be that in self defence, but never the less it's there. I don't see what gun control in the US would possibly serve now as this has been part of the US culture for as long as most can remember, it's too deeply embedded in society to even consider changing it.

Every human being on the planet is a "potential killer". Guns don't magically give you the ability to kill.

[minz]

Every human being on the planet is a "potential killer". Guns don't magically give you the ability to kill.

No but they give you a far better ratio than your fists would.

[Hal-9000]

Every human being on the planet is a "potential killer". Guns don't magically give you the ability to kill.

No but they give cowards, smaller people and wasted drug addicts the ability...

[Hal-9000]

No but they give you a far better ratio than your fists would.

cheers :thumbsup:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

http://i.imgur.com/vC5Bf.jpg

[Teh One Who Knocks]

http://i.imgur.com/55iJs.jpg

[Acid Trip]

Guns are banned in London and guns are everywhere in Dallas. So why is violent crime higher in London than Dallas?

Why is violent crime higher in Chicago and DC than Oklahoma City? Same situation. No guns vs. tons of guns.

If anti-gun people actually used facts in their arguments they might get somewhere.

[Southern Belle]

We have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

[minz]

We can all pick and choose which events suit our beliefs.

[Hal-9000]

Guns are banned in London and guns are everywhere in Dallas. So why is violent crime higher in London than Dallas?

Why is violent crime higher in Chicago and DC than Oklahoma City? Same situation. No guns vs. tons of guns.

If anti-gun people actually used facts in their arguments they might get somewhere.

I have a fact - Without a gun, most lunatics can't shoot someone. I have another one - When 23 innocent people die of gunshot wounds at a fast food restaurant, you can't tell me that the same criminal would still kill 23 people in a fit of rage within 30 seconds with his hands...

One thing you gun people never admit to, is that guns empower those who need to kill someone quickly, without much effort.

[minz]

Guns are banned in London and guns are everywhere in Dallas. So why is violent crime higher in London than Dallas?

Why is violent crime higher in Chicago and DC than Oklahoma City? Same situation. No guns vs. tons of guns.

If anti-gun people actually used facts in their arguments they might get somewhere.


London is a shit hole enough said!

This is from the NRA website http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/phil.html

Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire: 16,907 in firearm suicides, 11,920 in firearm homicides, 730 in unintentional shootings, and 232 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries.


Nobody or ceratainly not myself is denying you have a right to bare arms if you so choose, perhaps if you re read my first post you would see that, I dont see what purpose that would serve now, but you surely cant deny that guns play a significant part in the mortality rates of American citizens???

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Recent Knife Attacks in China

March 2010

On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng 41, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping, Fujian province; The attack was widely reported in Chinese media, sparking fears of copycat crimes. Following a quick trial, Zheng Minsheng was executed about one month later on April 28.

April 2010

Just a few hours after the execution of Zheng Minsheng in neighboring Fujian Province, in Leizhou, Guangdong another knife-wielding man named Chen Kangbing, 33 at Hongfu Primary School wounded 16 students and a teacher. Chen Kangbing had been a teacher at a different primary school in Leizhou; he was sentenced to death by a court in Zhanjiang in June. On April 29 in Taixing, Jiangsu, 47-year-old Xu Yuyuan went to Zhongxin Kindergarten and stabbed 28 students, two teachers and one security guard; most of the Taixing students were 4 years old. On April 30, Wang Yonglai used a hammer to cause head injury to preschool children in Weifang, Shandong, then used gasoline to commit suicide by self-immolation.

May 2010

An attacker named Wu Huanming, 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010; early reports were removed from the internet in China, for fear that mass coverage of such violence can provoke copycat attacks. The attacker later committed suicide at his house; he was the landlord of the school, Shengshui Temple private kindergarten, and had been involved in an ongoing dispute with the school administrator about when the school would move out of the building.

On May 18, 2010 at Hainan Institute of Science and Technology, a vocational college in Haikou, Hainan, more than 10 men charged into a dormitory wielding knives around 2:30 am; after attacking the security guard and disabling security cameras, 9 students were injured, 1 seriously. The local men attacked the dorm in an act of revenge and retaliation against college students following conflict the previous day at an off-campus food stall in which 4 students were injured, for a total of 13.

August 2010

On 4 August 2010, 26-year-old Fang Jiantang slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong province. Of the injured, 3 other children and 4 teachers were taken to the hospital. After being caught Fang confessed to the crime; his motive is not yet known.

August 2011

Eight children, all aged four or five, were hurt in Minhang District, Shanghai when an employee at a child-care centre for migrant workers slashed them with a box-cutter.

September 2011

In September 2011, a young girl and three adults taking their children to nursery school were killed in Gongyi, Henan by 30-year-old Wang Hongbin with an axe. Another child and an adult were seriously wounded but survived. The suspect is a local farmer who is suspected of being mentally ill.

Yup, nobody can injure multiple people without a firearm.

[Hal-9000]

Yup, nobody can injure multiple people without a firearm.

Your sarcasm is lost on me considering two things - Most knife wounds are not fatal and comparing a gun's power and killing ability to a knife is ludicrous.

I'll take the gun, you take the knife and we'll stand 20 feet apart.

[Acid Trip]

London is a shit hole enough said!

This is from the NRA website http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/phil.html

Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire: 16,907 in firearm suicides, 11,920 in firearm homicides, 730 in unintentional shootings, and 232 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries.


Nobody or ceratainly not myself is denying you have a right to bare arms if you so choose, perhaps if you re read my first post you would see that, I dont see what purpose that would serve now, but you surely cant deny that guns play a significant part in the mortality rates of American citizens???

By that reasoning we should outlaw alcohol and automobiles before we even think about guns. Both cause more death and injury than guns.

There is no denying that a weapon which puts ALL HUMANS on an equal playing field is dangerous. It's a weapon and that is the purpose of a weapon.

What puts a 300 lbs man and a 90 lbs woman on an equal playing field? How about an MMA fighter vs Hal (sorry Hal)? A crackhead thief vs. Grandma?

The only weapon in the history of mankind to make all those match ups equal is a gun. It's called being fair. The moral high ground folks should support a fair fight. Anti-gun people seem to think that Grandma should stand no chance, that Hal gets pounded it the cement, and the woman has her head bashed in.

[Hal-9000]

:lol: you may have used the wrong person for your example.....I'll fight a MMA fighter. Half of their 'belt' claims are false anyways..

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Your sarcasm is lost on me considering two things - Most knife wounds are not fatal and comparing a gun's power and killing ability to a knife is ludicrous.

I'll take the gun, you take the knife and we'll stand 20 feet apart.

Well your "...you gun people..." comment set the tone, just replying in kind

[Lambchop]

Guns are banned in London and guns are everywhere in Dallas. So why is violent crime higher in London than Dallas?

Why is violent crime higher in Chicago and DC than Oklahoma City? Same situation. No guns vs. tons of guns.

If anti-gun people actually used facts in their arguments they might get somewhere.
The violent crime rate differs greatly even among states with gun ownership.

Example:

Alaska - 14,616 guns per 100,000 residents

Violent crime rate - 6.39 (per 1,000 residents)

-----

Oregon - 8,287 guns per 100,000 residents

Violent crime rate - 2.52 (per 1,000 residents)

(Data: NICS background checks + http://www.neighborhoodscout.com)

Applying the same technique as you have I have just proven than less guns means less violence, right?


:mrgreen:

[minz]

By that reasoning we should outlaw alcohol and automobiles before we even think about guns. Both cause more death and injury than guns.

There is no denying that a weapon which puts ALL HUMANS on an equal playing field is dangerous. It's a weapon and that is the purpose of a weapon.

What puts a 300 lbs man and a 90 lbs woman on an equal playing field? How about an MMA fighter vs Hal (sorry Hal)? A crackhead thief vs. Grandma?

The only weapon in the history of mankind to make all those match ups equal is a gun. It's called being fair. The moral high ground folks should support a fair fight. Anti-gun people seem to think that Grandma should stand no chance, that Hal gets pounded it the cement, and the woman has her head bashed in.

I'm sorry, but your confusing me now, where in ANY of my posts does it say I disagree that you have a right to bear arms? The only point I'm making is that nobody can be so naive as to think that guns in the hands of anyone and everyone isnt going to result in deaths!

[Acid Trip]

:lol: you may have used the wrong person for your example.....I'll fight a MMA fighter. Half of their 'belt' claims are false anyways..

Are you confusing MMA and WWE?

[Acid Trip]

I'm sorry, but your confusing me now, where in ANY of my posts does it say I disagree that you have a right to bear arms? The only point I'm making is that nobody can be so naive as to think that guns in the hands of anyone and everyone is going to result in deaths!

I never said anything about the right to bear arms. I also never said everyone should have a gun.

I was showing you that guns in the hands of almost everyone (minus felons/mentally disabled/etc) like in Dallas is safer than a populace without guns. The facts support that.

[Hal-9000]

Well your "...you gun people..." comment set the tone, just replying in kind

And your ensuing post proved my point :lol:

I mention that gun people never seem to admit that their weapon of choice kills easier than other weapons, and here comes the stats about knives :lol:


It's not a huge leap by anyone to say that yes - Guns are a quicker, more powerful and easier method to kill someone than ____. Yet you all resist that simple concession of truth like it would somehow weaken your choice to have a gun.

I'm not going to pull a bunch of stats off the net for chainsaws, bombs, knives and weed wackers to make my point, because it's unnecessary.



I get the gun, you get a knife and let's meet :)

[minz]

I never said anything about the right to bear arms. I also never said everyone should have a gun.

I was showing you that guns in the hands of almost everyone (minus felons/mentally disabled/etc) like in Dallas is safer than a populace without guns. The facts support that.

Facts can be manipulated either way, just look at the arguments for climate change :lol: Guns were manufactured for one purpose, to kill.

[Hal-9000]

Are you confusing MMA and WWE?

Nope...MMA started by the Gracies?

side-argument - Fighter A has a black belt in Jiujitsu, Taiwanese Shute fighting and Kung Fu....and then we watch him as he slap-punches his opponent to the ground and puts him in a submission hold to win the match.

First of all, I've taken a wee bit of training throughout my life and my bro in law is a black belt in Tiger Claw Kung-Fu. One of my friends studied Jeet Kune Do (yes, the Bruce Lee discipline) and I've seen both my bro in law and friend fight.

Without writing 18 paragraphs I can say that those guys you see on television are not practicing a martial art. If they were, the match would be over within 30 seconds.

[Griffin]

"My god! What happened to you?" the bartender asked Kelly as he hobbled in on a crutch, one arm in a cast.
"I got in a tiff with Riley."
"Riley? He's just a wee fellow," the barkeep said, surprised. "He must have had something in his hand."
"Aye ... that he did," Kelly said. "A shovel it was."
"Dear Lord ... didn't you have anything in YOUR hand?"
"Aye, that I did ... Mrs. Riley's tit." Kelly said.
"And a beautiful thing it was, but not much use in a fight!"

[Hal-9000]

I'll tell you gun people what I've learned about gun owners from posting at forums on the internet for the past 7 years...


That I have made these concessions - Yes, some gun owners are responsible and will never have an accident that endangers or takes someone's life.

Yes, some people need them for protection based on the environment they live in or their physical size.

Yes, it's a good tool to have when put in a situation of danger by another person who is threatening you.


I feel that I've changed a few of my internal beliefs regarding gun ownership, based on people I've spoken to here. I still will not concede that it's a right of people of America to own one, it's a privilege. And I believe that attitude in the previous sentence is part of the problem. I also believe that it's too easy to acquire a gun and that the people who piss and moan over waiting times and/or permits, should never be allowed to carry one.

Finally, I have still yet to hear a 'real' story, from people that I'm posting with, about how a gun saved their life or how the gun somehow improved their quality of life. I guess I always envision a Shoot out at the OK Corral scenario featuring a shitbag criminal who pulls out a gun to threaten someone, and that person pulls their gun and stops the shitbag with a shot.

[RBP]

pew pew pew

[DemonGeminiX]

pew pew pew


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLPI_p5RnR0

[Hal-9000]

pew pew pew

Did I read correctly that Chicago has outlawed private gun ownership RBP?

[RBP]

Did I read correctly that Chicago has outlawed private gun ownership RBP?

Chicago had a no-handgun law, but it was ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS.

[DemonGeminiX]

Did I read correctly that Chicago has outlawed private gun ownership RBP?

They did, but then they reversed it.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0702/Chicago-passes-revised-gun-law-allowing-handgun-ownership

[Hal-9000]

So no handguns but a guy living downtown for example could get a permit for a rifle?

[RBP]

So no handguns but a guy living downtown for example could get a permit for a rifle?

Within limits, I believe yes. I didn't follow how the new law took shape so I am not positive.

[Hal-9000]

Within limits, I believe yes. I didn't follow how the new law took shape so I am not positive.

You got a gun?

[RBP]

You got a gun?

I have an owners card but don't currently own a firearm no.

[Hal-9000]

I have an owners card but don't currently own a firearm no.

So if I visit, we won't be having any Friday night fun getting free liquor and money?

wtf kind of host are you?? :x

[RBP]

So if I visit, we won't be having any Friday night fun getting free liquor and money?

wtf kind of host are you?? :x

Liquor up front, poker in the rear.

[Griffin]

So if I visit, we won't be having any Friday night fun getting free liquor and money?

wtf kind of host are you?? :x

You can visit me and choose revolver or semi auto handguns in various calibers.
Choice of different gauge shotguns in pump, bolt, single shot or semi.
If long range shooting is more to your liking I have .308 or British .303 that will take the hair off of a frogs ass.
Perhaps even step back in time and try a muzzle loader.

...but for just plain all out fun you really should bust a 30 round clip from my mini-14 or mini-30.

[Muddy]

Nope...MMA started by the Gracies?

side-argument - Fighter A has a black belt in Jiujitsu, Taiwanese Shute fighting and Kung Fu....and then we watch him as he slap-punches his opponent to the ground and puts him in a submission hold to win the match.

First of all, I've taken a wee bit of training throughout my life and my bro in law is a black belt in Tiger Claw Kung-Fu. One of my friends studied Jeet Kune Do (yes, the Bruce Lee discipline) and I've seen both my bro in law and friend fight.

Without writing 18 paragraphs I can say that those guys you see on television are not practicing a martial art. If they were, the match would be over within 30 seconds.

Dude, I've taken Jeet Kune Do.. It's no match for Jiu-Jitsu and some of the other more effective full contact sports right now.. I don't know if you remember, but Tiger claw and the guys brought their junk to the mat back in the early days and they got crushed... They quit coming because new sign ups started plummeting. These guys on the mat train just as long and probably harder than a lot of these ancient art guys.. What you see in the ring is effective..

[PorkChopSandwiches]

When weed is legal there will be a huge drop in "criminals"

[Muddy]

:lol: It's the key to the universe.

[KevinD]

I'll tell you gun people what I've learned about gun owners from posting at forums on the internet for the past 7 years...


That I have made these concessions - Yes, some gun owners are responsible and will never have an accident that endangers or takes someone's life.

Yes, some people need them for protection based on the environment they live in or their physical size.

Yes, it's a good tool to have when put in a situation of danger by another person who is threatening you.


I feel that I've changed a few of my internal beliefs regarding gun ownership, based on people I've spoken to here. I still will not concede that it's a right of people of America to own one, it's a privilege. And I believe that attitude in the previous sentence is part of the problem. I also believe that it's too easy to acquire a gun and that the people who piss and moan over waiting times and/or permits, should never be allowed to carry one.

Finally, I have still yet to hear a 'real' story, from people that I'm posting with, about how a gun saved their life or how the gun somehow improved their quality of life. I guess I always envision a Shoot out at the OK Corral scenario featuring a shitbag criminal who pulls out a gun to threaten someone, and that person pulls their gun and stops the shitbag with a shot.


I hope that by some chance, I'm one of the more responsible gun owners that you mention, lol

I will have to fundamentally disagree with you however on your statement I highlighted in red. Despite what others have postulated, the second amendment of the US Constitution, does in fact give a citizen of the US the right to own firearms. Not gonna get into it here, as I had a very good thread about it on AS, with all relevant sources, quotes, and despite Deeps arguments, references as to what the founding fathers meant by the entire wording.

I entirely respect your (and any other non gun owners) choice to not have a firearm.

This is to those who don't want me to own a firearm (Not anyone in this thread)

I respect your right to not own a firearm, respect my right to do so.