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PorkChopSandwiches
12-12-2012, 04:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Es2ug.jpg


Lesbians get it from fathers, gay men from mothers?

Scientists may have finally solved the puzzle of what makes a person gay, and how it is passed from parents to their children.

A group of scientists suggested Tuesday that homosexuals get that trait from their opposite-sex parents: A lesbian will almost always get the trait from her father, while a gay man will get the trait from his mother.



The hereditary link of homosexuality has long been established, but scientists knew it was not a strictly genetic link, because there are many pairs of identical twins who have differing sexualities. Scientists from the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis say homosexuality seems to have an epigenetic, not a genetic link.

Long thought to have some sort of hereditary link, a group of scientists suggested Tuesday that homosexuality is linked to epi-marks — extra layers of information that control how certain genes are expressed. These epi-marks are usually, but not always, "erased" between generations. In homosexuals, these epi-marks aren't erased — they're passed from father-to-daughter or mother-to-son, explains William Rice, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California Santa Barbara and lead author of the study.



"There is compelling evidence that epi-marks contribute to both the similarity and dissimilarity of family members, and can therefore feasibly contribute to the observed familial inheritance of homosexuality and its low concordance between [identical] twins," Rice notes.

Rice and his team created a mathematical model that explains why homosexuality is passed through epi-marks, not genetics. Evolutionarily speaking, if homosexuality was solely a genetic trait, scientists would expect the trait to eventually disappear because homosexuals wouldn't be expected to reproduce. But because these epi-marks provide an evolutionary advantage for the parents of homosexuals: They protect fathers of homosexuals from underexposure to testosterone and mothers of homosexuals from overexposure to testosterone while they are in gestation.



"These epi-marks protect fathers and mothers from excess or underexposure to testosterone — when they carry over to opposite-sex offspring, it can cause the masculinization of females or the feminization of males," Rice says, which can lead to a child becoming gay. Rice notes that these markers are "highly variable" and that only strong epi-marks will result in a homosexual offspring.

Though scientists have long suspected some sort of genetic link, Rice says studies attempting to explain why people are gay have been few and far between.



"Most mainstream biologists have shied away from studying it because of the social stigma," he says. "It's been swept under the rug, people are still stuck on this idea that it's unnatural. Well there are many examples of homosexuality in nature, it's very common." Homosexual behavior has been observed in black swans, penguins, sheep, and other animals, he says.

Rice's model still needs to be tested on real-life parent-offspring pairs, but he says this epigenetic link makes more sense than any other explanation, and that his team has mapped out a way for other scientists to test their work.



"We've found a story that looks really good," he says. "There's more verification needed, but we point out how we can easily do epigenetic profiles genome-wide. We predict where the epi-marks occur, we just need other studies to look at it empirically. This can be tested and proven within six months. It's easy to test. If it's a bad idea, we can throw it away in short order."

FBD
12-12-2012, 05:02 PM
to be filed under "correlation conflation with causation"

PorkChopSandwiches
12-12-2012, 05:04 PM
IDk what that means

FBD
12-12-2012, 05:11 PM
it means that correlation is not causation. why are people so hellbent on saying its genetic, I have no choice, as if its all nature and no nurture. while there may be some correlation, I'd be hesitant to lay all of it there. I think if it gets explored sufficiently then this will be found to be not statistically significant. (not that such a thing will change some people's minds.)

Teh One Who Knocks
12-12-2012, 05:20 PM
http://i.imgur.com/4XcfI.jpg

PorkChopSandwiches
12-12-2012, 05:22 PM
it means that correlation is not causation. why are people so hellbent on saying its genetic, I have no choice, as if its all nature and no nurture. while there may be some correlation, I'd be hesitant to lay all of it there. I think if it gets explored sufficiently then this will be found to be not statistically significant. (not that such a thing will change some people's minds.)

So you are on the side of gay is a choice?

FBD
12-12-2012, 05:51 PM
I'd say its more of an outcome rather than a choice. All kinds of different impressions and ideas have different impacts at different times in the formative years. Your soul might just be gay for all we know. All I'm saying is that if there is a genetic link, it is a portion of the equation and most absolutely certainly (as certainly as you can say without being god and knowing for sure :dance: ) not the entire equation.

I mean, look at the fkn bronies for chrissakes :lol: What makes one like the fkn bronies?! Is there some genetic link? Or is it just certain combinations of all these circumstances, which likely includes epi-marks?

PorkChopSandwiches
12-12-2012, 05:52 PM
fair enough

FBD
12-12-2012, 06:09 PM
I like things to be as simple as possible, but no simpler, because then you have problems - it goes reciprocal on you and gets much more complex in practice if you try to make it too simple. Its the same as planck-scale physics in some iterations of string theory, if you try to get smaller than the planck size the way te physics works out it literally flips and you get no smaller, it gets bigger if you try to make a smaller description (that's actually how the different flavor-descriptions of string theory fit into the larger M theory framework, they morph into one another and each has certain things it is better at describing.) Or, in these other life sized things, you just get a poor description of the reality that you are really trying to describe, and any models built upon it will have little real predictive value.

sometimes I should just shut my trap and go train :sad2:

Hal-9000
12-12-2012, 06:42 PM
I would disagree with FBD....science has already found that there's different levels of hormones in gay people, it's the chemistry angle, not the nurturing angle...

their explanation that gays would just 'breed out' if it was genetic, is completely weak for a lot of reasons.


You tell me....you have 5 generations of heterosexual husbands and wives and all of sudden 'epi marks' make little Jimmy gay. FROM WHO? :lol:

redred
12-12-2012, 06:48 PM
so is campness learnt ? or are they born with it

Hal-9000
12-12-2012, 06:53 PM
I've read a little on the subject and don't know the actual reason for people's orientation....I only know one thing:

When I was 9, my brother was caught with a Playboy magazine. My Dad kept it and I read it :lol:

I knew from the first pictorial that yes Virginia, women were for me :dance:


Hell I even remember the cover with some chicks in baseball uniforms, it was dated 1973...Karen Witter was the playmate and some of the cartoons :lol:

Godfather
12-13-2012, 04:22 AM
So at what moment in your lives did you guys realize you were heterosexual? :-k

KevinD
12-13-2012, 04:31 AM
Evolutionarily speaking, if homosexuality was solely a genetic trait, scientists would expect the trait to eventually disappear because homosexuals wouldn't be expected to reproduce.

I've said this for years. I dunno why some are gay and some aren't. I actually could care less. As long as people treat me with respect, they'll get the same from me, and I try to treat others with respect until they disrespect me.

When did I know I was straight? I don't think being gay ever crossed my mind tbh. I know the first time I was aware of a difference between boys and girls was in 1st grade. There was a little strawberry blond girl with curly hair that I absolutely fell in love with. Still remember her name actually.

Godfather
12-13-2012, 04:51 AM
Genetic traits can skip generations, lay dormant, be passed down in a variety of ways... even severely fatal genes or genes that cause extreme handicaps limiting the likelihood of reproduction can skip generations and do continue to be present. There is a 'perpetuity of dilapidated genes.' Secondly, Homosexuality doesn't prevent reproduction. There are other reasons too, but the argument that homosexuality would burn itself out if was was a genetic just doesn't make sense.

There have also been detected physical differences in the brains of homosexuals. Homosexuality is widespread and documented throughout the animal kingdom. And for me, the most damning evidence is the point I was making in my goofy first post: For homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, for the vast majority of people there is no element of choice or decisions, we just are that way. I'm not saying I believe it's entirely genetic as I know little about genes, but at the same time I whole-hardheartedly believe that people are born gay just as honestly as most are born straight.

FBD
12-13-2012, 02:06 PM
I dont believe you're born anything. Its like saying you're a born poker champion. you're born with the tools to become a great amount of things, and genetics are part of the equation, but most certainly not the entire equation.