Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds Baseball Hall of Fame Vote Results to be Released Today

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By ERIN McLAUGHLIN - ABC News


http://i.imgur.com/2uzcc.jpg

Two of Major League Baseball's all-time greats are on the Baseball Hall of Fame ballot for the first time this year, and despite stats that make them look like shoo-ins, it's likely neither will be enshrined in Cooperstown this summer.

Barry Bonds, baseball's home run king, and Roger Clemens, the owner of more Cy Young awards than any other pitcher, are eligible for the Hall this year, and based solely on their numbers, both would be obvious first-year inductees.

However, both players' extraordinary careers were tainted by steroid use during baseball's "Steroids Era."

In nearly all offensive categories, Bonds is among the best ever -- the recipient of a record-setting seven MVP awards and 14 All-Star appearances. Clemens ranks near the top in career wins and strikeouts. But steroid use is the ultimate lightning rod in baseball, and both men have been at the center of the controversy.

In order to make it to Cooperstown, a candidate must be named on 75 percent of the about 600 ballots sent to Baseball Writers Association of America voters. Players are to be elected according to their "record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to [their] team."

This year, several of the 37 players listed on the ballot were implicated for performance enhancing drug use during the steroids era.

A number of baseball writers have publicly released their ballots, with explanations of why they did or did not vote for the candidates. There is a chance that this year, based on the ballots that have been made public so far, none of the eligible players will be elected into the Hall.

Some of the players won't make it because voters don't consider them worthy of one of baseball's highest honors. Others, however, have the stat sheets and credentials, but have also been surrounded by PED-related controversy.

MLB has tried to separate itself from steroid use in recent years by implementing random drug tests and punishing any player who tests positive for banned substances. Since this controversial ballot was released, a number of voters have stated they will never vote for "known steroids users."

"When I vote for a player I am upholding him for the highest individual honor possible," Sports Illustrated columnist Tom Verducci wrote in an article explaining his vote. "Voting for a known steroid user is endorsing steroid use. Having spent too much of the past two decades or so covering baseball on the subject of steroids -- what they do, how the game was subverted by them, and how those who stayed away from them were disadvantaged -- I cannot endorse it."

On the other side of the debate, some of Bonds' supporters have argued that his numbers before his steroid use began would themselves make the left-fielder worthy of the Hall.

In his New York Times column, statistician Nate Silver explains the left fielder's credentials before the 1998 season, when he reportedly began using performance enhancing drugs.

"By that time, he had already won three M.V.P. awards and eight Gold Gloves and had hit 411 home runs and stolen 445 bases," Silver wrote. "On the basis of Wins Above Replacement, he would have ranked as roughly the 30th best player in baseball history had he retired then."

One current Hall of Famer, pitcher Bob Gibson said in 2009 that he might have used steroids had they been available during his playing days, and that he believed players who used PEDs should still be in the Hall.

Two other faces of the so-called "Steroid Era," Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, whose home-run derby of a 1998 season captured the attention of the nation, are also both on the ballot this year.

It's McGwire's seventh year on the ballot (last year, he appeared on 19.5 percent of ballots), and Sosa's first. Based on the votes that have been made public, it doesn't appear likely that either will make it into the Hall this year.

As Silver noted, this ballot "is close to being an up-or-down referendum on whether suspected steroids users are fit for the Hall of Fame." The results could serve as the benchmark for all future players who appear on the ballot with even circumstantial evidence that they may have used PEDs.

Other players who were embroiled by controversy have been kept out of the Hall for undermining the integrity of the game, despite stats that should have gotten them enshrined.

"Shoeless" Joe Jackson, an outstanding offensive outfielder, has been permanently banned from baseball (and therefore, the Hall of Fame) due to his alleged involvement in the so-called "Black Sox scandal," in which White Sox players fixed the 1919 World Series. In 1999, the House of Representatives passed a resolution urging MLB to rescind his ineligibilty, but he is still banned.

Pete Rose, MLB's all-time hits leader, three-time batting champion, and an 18-time All-Star (at an unmatched four different positions), is also ineligible for the Hall of Fame. He admitted gambling on baseball games while he was a player, and agreed to permanent ineligibility, but the issue remains a contentious one in baseball.

No player has been elected in their first year on the ballot since Rickey Henderson in 2009, and no player has ever been elected in unanimously. Other first-time players on the ballot this year include Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling, Kenny Lofton, and Craig Biggio. Thirteen players are returning to the ballot this year, including Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Jeff Bagwell, and Time Raines.

The results of the vote will be announced at 2 p.m. ET on MLB Network and streamed live on Baseballhall.org.

Players who make the cut will be inducted in Cooperstown on July 28, along with umpire Hank O'Day, executive Jacob Ruppter, and catcher Deacon White, all of whom were elected by the Pre-Integration Era Committee.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

If there's any integrity left in baseball, none of these fucking cheaters will ever get in.

[RBP]

I get confused on this issue because if I understand it, most of this happened when the substances in question were not banned and were not tested for by the league.

So if the league failed by not having and enforcing rules, why should the players be held accountable for rules they didn't break?

Or do I have this all wrong? :-k

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I get confused on this issue because if I understand it, most of this happened when the substances in question were not banned and were not tested for by the league.

So if the league failed by not having and enforcing rules, why should the players be held accountable for rules they didn't break?

Or do I have this all wrong? :-k

I had to look it up (from Wiki):


Over most of the course of Major League Baseball history, steroid testing was never a major issue. In 1991, Commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to all teams stating that steroid use was against the rules. However, after the BALCO steroid scandal, which involved allegations that top baseball players had used illegal performance-enhancing drugs, Major League Baseball finally decided to issue penalties to steroid users. The current policy, which was accepted by Major League Baseball players and owners, was issued at the start of the 2005 season and went as follows:
A first positive test resulted in a suspension of 10 games, a second positive test resulted in a suspension of 30 games, the third positive test resulted in a suspension of 60 games, the fourth positive test resulted in a suspension of one full year, and a fifth positive test resulted in a penalty at the commissioner’s discretion. Players were tested at least once per year, with the chance that several players could be tested many did not succeed.

This program replaced the previous steroid testing program under which, for example, no player was even suspended in 2004. Under the old policy, which was established in 2002, a first-time offense would only result in treatment for the player, and the player would not be named.

In November 2005, MLB owners and players approved even tougher penalties for positive tests than the ones in place during the 2005 season. Under the new rules, a first positive test would result in a 50-game suspension, a second positive test would result in a 100-game suspension, and a third positive test would result in a lifetime suspension from MLB.

These new penalties are much harsher than the previous ones. The new steroid policy finally brings MLB closer in line with international rules, as well as with the NFL, which has long taken a tough stance on those caught using steroids.

On March 30, 2006, Bud Selig launched an investigation on the alleged steroid use by players such as Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield as the weight of books like Game of Shadows emerged. The inquiry into steroids' use in baseball is expected to go back no further than 2002, when the MLB started testing players for performance-enhancing drugs.

[RBP]

Thanks Lance, I thought that was the case.

So...

Bonds played from 1986 to 2007
Clemens played from 1984 to 2007
Sosa played from 1989 to 2007

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Thanks Lance, I thought that was the case.

So...

Bonds played from 1986 to 2007
Clemens played from 1984 to 2007
Sosa played from 1989 to 2007

And most of them didn't start cheating until midway thru their careers, so well after steroids were decreed illegal by MLB

[RBP]

And most of them didn't start cheating until midway thru their careers, so well after steroids were decreed illegal by MLB

How could it be halfway and also well after when the MLB didn't have a position until 2002 and not a serious one until 2005... so last 5 years at best, but last 2 really.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

How could it be halfway and also well after when the MLB didn't have a position until 2002 and not a serious one until 2005... so last 5 years at best, but last 2 really.

It's easy....Clemens played for 23 seasons....half of that is roughly 12 years....came into the league in 1984....add 12 is 1996 which is 5 years after PED's were officially made illegal by MLB.

Same with Bonds, somewhere around the midpoint of his career he went from being a fairly lanky, skinny guy to a monster with a ginormous head.

[RBP]

It's easy....Clemens played for 23 seasons....half of that is roughly 12 years....came into the league in 1984....add 12 is 1996 which is 5 years after PED's were officially made illegal by MLB.

Same with Bonds, somewhere around the midpoint of his career he went from being a fairly lanky, skinny guy to a monster with a ginormous head.

they were made illegal in 1991? I misread what you posted despite your bolding of it.

Ok, so I was incorrect then. They made a statement in 1991 but just didn't have an enforcement mechanism until 2002/2005.

[FBD]

It's easy....Clemens played for 23 seasons....half of that is roughly 12 years....came into the league in 1984....add 12 is 1996 which is 5 years after PED's were officially made illegal by MLB.

Same with Bonds, somewhere around the midpoint of his career he went from being a fairly lanky, skinny guy to a monster with a ginormous head.

I recall having bonds' rookie card. Looks about 190 lbs in it.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I recall having bonds' rookie card. Looks about 190 lbs in it.

http://i.imgur.com/byjth.jpg

[Teh One Who Knocks]

they were made illegal in 1991? I misread what you posted despite your bolding of it.

Ok, so I was incorrect then. They made a statement in 1991 but just didn't have an enforcement mechanism until 2002/2005.

Exactly...the Players Union has always been anti-drug testing and it was hard to get enforcement pushed thru, even though PED's were illegal they (MLB) couldn't test for them until the early 2000's

[FBD]

yeah, for the same reasons that Congress is anti letting us find shit out, then we'd know almost every single one meets the definition of a criminal.

[Acid Trip]

I had to look it up (from Wiki):

The current policy, which was accepted by Major League Baseball players and owners, was issued at the start of the 2005 season and went as follows:
A first positive test resulted in a suspension of 10 games, a second positive test resulted in a suspension of 30 games, the third positive test resulted in a suspension of 60 games, the fourth positive test resulted in a suspension of one full year, and a fifth positive test resulted in a penalty at the commissioner’s discretion. Players were tested at least once per year, with the chance that several players could be tested many did not succeed.

It appears the accepted policy (meaning players and owners signed off on it) didn't start until 2005, about 2 years shy of their retirement from baseball.

If they used performance enhancing drugs in the last two years they shouldn't get in. If they used them before it the rule was official let them in.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

It appears the accepted policy (meaning players and owners signed off on it) didn't start until 2005, about 2 years shy of their retirement from baseball.

If they used performance enhancing drugs in the last two years they shouldn't get in. If they used them before it the rule was official let them in.

The Commissioner declared steroids against the rules in 1991, that makes it cheating right there. Just because they didn't have a testing policy (held up by the union) or punishment until recently doesn't make it okay that they broke a rule issued in 1991.

[Acid Trip]

The Commissioner declared steroids against the rules in 1991, that makes it cheating right there. Just because they didn't have a testing policy (held up by the union) or punishment until recently doesn't make it okay that they broke a rule issued in 1991.

Where is the proof? They can speculate to high heaven on steroid use but without proof it's a bunch of hot air.

How would you feel if you were accused of murder and the prosecution had no body and no evidence. But man, they're pretty sure you did it so we'll go ahead and jail you for life.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Where is the proof? They can speculate to high heaven on steroid use but without proof it's a bunch of hot air.

How would you feel if you were accused of murder and the prosecution had no body and no evidence. But man, they're pretty sure you did it so we'll go ahead and jail you for life.

Proof? :-s

Maybe you've heard of the Balco scandal, that goes back way into the 1990's? The fact that Bonds turned into some monster in his mid to late 30's? (I guess he was just behind on puberty or something :rolleyes: ) Baseball power records that were falling by the wayside left and right all of a sudden....and then just as suddenly became unreachable again as soon as testing became mandatory? Players that played well into their mid to late 40's and showed no signs that aging was catching up to them?

Sorry, circumstantial evidence is still evidence. If you want to pretend they weren't cheating, that's you're business, but don't piss on my leg and try and convince me it's raining.

[RBP]

*rains on Lance*

8-[

[Teh One Who Knocks]

About 20 minutes until the release the ballot results


*rains on Lance*

8-[

:gtfo:

[Acid Trip]

Proof? :-s

Maybe you've heard of the Balco scandal, that goes back way into the 1990's? The fact that Bonds turned into some monster in his mid to late 30's? (I guess he was just behind on puberty or something :rolleyes: ) Baseball power records that were falling by the wayside left and right all of a sudden....and then just as suddenly became unreachable again as soon as testing became mandatory? Players that played well into their mid to late 40's and showed no signs that aging was catching up to them?

Sorry, circumstantial evidence is still evidence. If you want to pretend they weren't cheating, that's you're business, but don't piss on my leg and try and convince me it's raining.

A court of law would disagree with you. I'm sure you've heard a lawyer say "Objection, circumstantial evidence" and judge says "Sustained" meaning the evidence or question is thrown out.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

A court of law would disagree with you. I'm sure you've heard a lawyer say "Objection, circumstantial evidence" and judge says "Sustained" meaning the evidence or question is thrown out.

Then it's a good thing the Hall of Fame balloting isn't done in a court of law but in the court of public opinion ;)

[FBD]

Gotta agree with Lance here - this doesnt have to withstand the particular rigors of the Courts and standards of proving this or that, its baseball, not murder - there is both a higher and lower rigor to be adhered to here. Just because the enforcement mechanism wasnt in place, that didnt make it ok for Barry and Roger to take shots in the ass and add 40lbs of muscle, breaking records in the process, then get away with some excuse about the players union signing the ok on it after the enforcement mechanisms were in place. The integrity of the game is on the table here, and if they're going to let clemens & bonds in, then they might as well go ahead and put Pete Rose in there, too.

Good point on the suddenly unreachable records. We had dude after dude knockin on the door of Maris' 60 for a time there, then all of a sudden, nothing. That says a heck of a lot right there.

[RBP]

I think Pete Rose should be in.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By Kevin Kaduk | Big League Stew


http://i.imgur.com/yFCWO.jpg

What previously looked like a strong possibility has become a confirmed and controversial certainty. Despite a field loaded with qualified candidates, no one will be elected to the Hall of Fame the writer's ballot this year. It's the first time that's happened since 1996 and the 16th overall since 1940, though none of those years featured such a deep crop of candidates nor such a divisive issue like steroid abuse.

BBWAA.com has the full results of the voting. Barry Bonds (36.2 percent) and Roger Clemens (37.6) didn't come close to getting the 75 percent of the vote necessary for election their first time on the ballot. Neither did Mike Piazza (57.8) or Sammy Sosa (12.5). Craig Biggio led all players with 68.2 percent of the vote and was just 39 votes short of election. He was followed by Jack Morris (67.7 percent), Jeff Bagwell (59.6), Piazza (57.8) and Tim Raines (52.2).

But none of them will see their plaques hoisted alongside three dead inductees from the veteran's committee — Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day and deadball-era player Deacon White — in late July.

[Acid Trip]

Gotta agree with Lance here - this doesnt have to withstand the particular rigors of the Courts and standards of proving this or that, its baseball, not murder - there is both a higher and lower rigor to be adhered to here. Just because the enforcement mechanism wasnt in place, that didnt make it ok for Barry and Roger to take shots in the ass and add 40lbs of muscle, breaking records in the process, then get away with some excuse about the players union signing the ok on it after the enforcement mechanisms were in place. The integrity of the game is on the table here, and if they're going to let clemens & bonds in, then they might as well go ahead and put Pete Rose in there, too.

Good point on the suddenly unreachable records. We had dude after dude knockin on the door of Maris' 60 for a time there, then all of a sudden, nothing. That says a heck of a lot right there.

I put on 30 lbs of muscle in the summer between my senior year of college and graduate school. All it took was 5 workouts a week, a creatine supplement, and a shit load of protein.

If I can do 30 lbs in 3-4 months then 40 lbs in an off season would be easy for a professional athlete that works out everyday.

I need something other than "look how big he got!" to believe something is true. It's probably because I lived in the Show Me state for 4 years.

[FBD]

I know its within the realm of possibility bro, but in the middle of one's career it all of a sudden happens in an offseason? Bonds didnt all of a sudden start working out. He all of a sudden blew up huge, roid rage, etc. I put on 25 years ago over the course of 8-10 months and it fked up my back because it was too much upper body weight :lol: But its a loooong shot from what happened with these dudes.

[Godfather]

My question is when the MLB will find a way to address this once and for all. Will this be the headline every year at HoF time for a decade until they let Rose and Bonds and all those guys in? Or will they knock out eligibility from every player in that era and be done with it. At some point you have to cut the grey area out.

[DemonGeminiX]

My question is when the MLB will find a way to address this once and for all. Will this be the headline every year at HoF time for a decade until they let Rose and Bonds and all those guys in? Or will they knock out eligibility from every player in that era and be done with it. At some point you have to cut the grey area out.

The guys mentioned in the article are 'roid freaks. You let them in and you send a really bad message. I'm thinking they'll never get in and rightfully so. Rose's situation is a different animal altogether.

[Godfather]

The guys mentioned in the article are 'roid freaks. You let them in and you send a really bad message. I'm thinking they'll never get in and rightfully so. Rose's situation is a different animal altogether.

That's reasonable, but does the board on the HoF have the nuts to come out and say "we will never let these goons in." Or will it be something the media gets type hype up every year :lol:

Can you imagine if for some reason Bonds of Clemens got in before Rose? It would be a tragedy.

[DemonGeminiX]

That's reasonable, but does the board on the HoF have the nuts to come out and say "we will never let these goons in." Or will it be something the media gets type hype up every year :lol:

Can you imagine if for some reason Bonds of Clemens got in before Rose? It would be a tragedy.

They might say something eventually. For the longest time, they had an informal ban on all players on the baseball permanent ineligibility list. They made it formal in '91. That's why Rose isn't gonna get in. He was put on that list in '89. So maybe somewhere down the road, they'll take a stand and say something about the 'roid players. Maybe they already have an informal ban in place on them.

Tragedy? Maybe. I don't know. Honestly, I don't believe it'll ever happen. It speaks volumes to me if all the 'roid players were turned away this year. Because of this, I'm pretty sure it's never gonna happen. I could be wrong, but you never know what the Hall's gonna do until they come out and say it.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By MIKE FITZPATRICK | Associated Press


http://i.imgur.com/ZtXJ6.jpg

NEW YORK (AP) — Nobody was happier about the Hall of Fame shutout than the Hall of Famers themselves.

Goose Gossage, Al Kaline, Dennis Eckersley and others are in no rush to open the door to Cooperstown for anyone linked to steroids.

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa: Keep 'em all out of our club.

"If they let these guys in ever — at any point — it's a big black eye for the Hall and for baseball," Gossage said in a phone interview with The Associated Press. "It's like telling our kids you can cheat, you can do whatever you want, and it's not going to matter."

For only the second time in 42 years, baseball writers failed to elect anyone to the Hall of Fame on Wednesday, sending a firm signal that stars of the Steroids Era will be held to a different standard.

All the awards and accomplishments collected over storied careers by Bonds, Clemens and Sosa — all eligible for the first time — could not offset suspicions those exploits were artificially boosted by performance-enhancing drugs.

"I'm kind of glad that nobody got in this year," Kaline said. "I feel honored to be in the Hall of Fame. And I would've felt a little uneasy sitting up there on the stage, listening to some of these new guys talk about how great they were."

Gossage went even further.

"I think the steroids guys that are under suspicion got too many votes," he said. "I don't know why they're making this such a question and why there's so much debate. To me, they cheated. Are we going to reward these guys?"

Not this year, at least.

Bonds received just 36.2 percent of the vote and Clemens 37.6 in totals announced by the Hall and the Baseball Writers' Association of America, both well short of the 75 percent needed for election — yet still too close for Gossage's taste. Sosa, eighth on the career home run list, got 12.5 percent.

"Wow! Baseball writers make a statement," Eckersley wrote on Twitter. "Feels right."

The results keep the sport's career home run leader (Bonds) and most decorated pitcher (Clemens) out of Cooperstown — for now. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa have up to 14 more years on the writers' ballot to gain baseball's highest honor.

Bonds, baseball's only seven-time MVP, hit 762 home runs — including a record 73 in 2001. He has denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs and was convicted of one count of obstruction of justice for giving an evasive answer in 2003 to a grand jury investigating PEDs.

Clemens, the game's lone seven-time Cy Young Award winner, is third in career strikeouts (4,672) and ninth in wins (354). He was acquitted of perjury charges stemming from congressional testimony during which he denied using PEDs.

"If you don't think Roger Clemens cheated, you're burying your head in the sand," Gossage said.

Sosa, who finished with 609 home runs, was among those who tested positive in MLB's 2003 anonymous survey, The New York Times reported in 2009. He told a congressional committee in 2005 that he never took illegal performance-enhancing drugs. He also was caught using a corked bat during his career.

"What really gets me is seeing how some of these players associated with drugs have jumped over many of the greats in our game," Kaline said. "Numbers mean a lot in baseball, maybe more so than in any other sport. And going back to Babe Ruth, and players like Harmon Killebrew and Frank Robinson and Willie Mays, seeing people jump over them with 600, 700 home runs, I don't like to see that.

"I don't know how great some of these players up for election would've been without drugs. But to me, it's cheating," he added. "Numbers are important, but so is integrity and character. Some of these guys might get in someday. But for a year or two, I'm glad they didn't."

Gossage, noting that cyclist Lance Armstrong was stripped of his seven Tour de France titles following allegations that he used performance-enhancing drugs, believes baseball should go just as far. He thinks the record book should be overhauled, taking away the accomplishments of players like Bonds, Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro and Mark McGwire — who has admitted using steroids and human growth hormone during his playing days.

McGwire, 10th on the career home run chart, received 16.9 percent of the vote on his seventh Hall try, down from 19.5 last year.

"I don't know if baseball knows how to deal with this at all," Gossage said. "Why don't they strip these guys of all these numbers? You've got to suffer the consequences. You get caught cheating on a test, you get expelled from school."

Juan Marichal is one Hall of Famer who doesn't see it that way. The former pitcher believes Bonds, Clemens and Sosa belong in Cooperstown.

"I think that they have been unfair to guys who were never found guilty of anything," Marichal said. "Their stats define them as immortals. That's the reality and that cannot be denied."

The BBWAA election rules say "voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

While much of the focus this year was on Bonds, Clemens and Sosa, every other player with Cooperstown credentials was denied, too.

Craig Biggio, 20th on the career list with 3,060 hits, came the closest. He was chosen on 68.2 percent of the 569 ballots, 39 shy of election. Among other first-year eligibles, Mike Piazza received 57.8 percent and Curt Schilling 38.8. Jack Morris topped holdovers with 67.7 percent.

None of those players have been publicly linked to PED use, so it's difficult to determine whether they fell short due to suspicion, their stats — or the overall stench of the era they played in.

"What we're witnessing here is innocent people paying for the sinners," Marichal said.

Hall of Fame slugger Mike Schmidt said that comes with the territory.

"It's not news that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, and McGwire didn't get in, but that they received hardly any consideration at all. The real news is that Biggio and Piazza were well under the 75 percent needed," Schmidt wrote in an email to the AP.

"Curt Schilling made a good point. Everyone was guilty. Either you used PEDs, or you did nothing to stop their use. This generation got rich. Seems there was a price to pay."

At ceremonies in Cooperstown on July 28, the only inductees will be three men who died more than 70 years ago: Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day and barehanded catcher Deacon White. They were chosen last month by the 16-member panel considering individuals from the era before integration in 1947.

[Shady]

Next year we should see at least one inductee. Greg Maddox is eligible next year.

[FBD]

I agree with Goose and Eckersley

[Acid Trip]

I know its within the realm of possibility bro, but in the middle of one's career it all of a sudden happens in an offseason? Bonds didnt all of a sudden start working out. He all of a sudden blew up huge, roid rage, etc. I put on 25 years ago over the course of 8-10 months and it fked up my back because it was too much upper body weight :lol: But its a loooong shot from what happened with these dudes.

Not enough core workouts eh? I made that mistake my first year in college and I hurt my back too.


The guys mentioned in the article are 'roid freaks. You let them in and you send a really bad message. I'm thinking they'll never get in and rightfully so. Rose's situation is a different animal altogether.

So which is worse? Cheating the integrity of the game (Rose) or cheating in the weight room (Bonds and Company)?

[FBD]

nah man, my back was already severely injured, this is post surgery...like 8-10 years post. core is always huge for me, I have no choice in the matter.

cheating in the weight room is cheating in the game.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

So which is worse? Cheating the integrity of the game (Rose) or cheating in the weight room (Bonds and Company)?

Rose has never been accused of cheating as a player, what he was accused of (and admitted to because he was told by the commissioner that if he 'came clean' it would clear him for the HoF) was gambling on games when he was a manager.

He wasn't going into the HoF because of his managerial prowess, he was going in because he was Charlie Hustle and embodied everything that a baseball player, or any athlete for that matter, should be. Pete Rose never cheated, but he was lied to...and he deserves to be in the HoF as a player.

[FBD]

cleared or not, its not the commish who casts the votes. I can appreciate the hustle, and agree he deserves it 100x more than bonds or sosa, but...wouldnt surprise me in the least if he never makes it.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

cleared or not, its not the commish who casts the votes. I can appreciate the hustle, and agree he deserves it 100x more than bonds or sosa, but...wouldnt surprise me in the least if he never makes it.

Oh, I know the commissioner doesn't cast the votes, but he was the one that banned Rose for life from the HoF, so he outright lied to Rose when he told him that if he confessed to gambling that he would be eligible for the Hall.

[FBD]

lol, wut? fkn professional sports, man :roll: