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Teh One Who Knocks
02-05-2013, 11:57 AM
By Michael Isikoff, National Investigative Correspondent, NBC News


http://i.imgur.com/nJIcmqY.jpg

A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.

The 16-page memo (PDF) (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf), a copy of which was obtained by NBC News, provides new details about the legal reasoning behind one of the Obama administration’s most secretive and controversial polices: its dramatically increased use of drone strikes against al-Qaida suspects, including those aimed at American citizens, such as the September 2011 strike in Yemen that killed alleged al-Qaida operatives Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both were U.S. citizens who had never been indicted by the U.S. government nor charged with any crimes.

The secrecy surrounding such strikes is fast emerging as a central issue in this week’s hearing of White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan, a key architect of the drone campaign, to be CIA director. Brennan was the first administration official to publicly acknowledge drone strikes in a speech last year, calling them “consistent with the inherent right of self-defense.” In a separate talk at the Northwestern University Law School in March, Attorney General Eric Holder specifically endorsed the constitutionality of targeted killings of Americans, saying they could be justified if government officials determine the target poses “an imminent threat of violent attack.”

But the confidential Justice Department “white paper” introduces a more expansive definition of self-defense or imminent attack than described by Brennan or Holder in their public speeches. It refers, for example, to what it calls a “broader concept of imminence” than actual intelligence about any ongoing plot against the U.S. homeland.

“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.

Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”

As in Holder’s speech, the confidential memo lays out a three-part test that would make targeted killings of American lawful: In addition to the suspect being an imminent threat, capture of the target must be “infeasible, and the strike must be conducted according to “law of war principles.” But the memo elaborates on some of these factors in ways that go beyond what the attorney general said publicly. For example, it states that U.S. officials may consider whether an attempted capture of a suspect would pose an “undue risk” to U.S. personnel involved in such an operation. If so, U.S. officials could determine that the capture operation of the targeted American would not be feasible, making it lawful for the U.S. government to order a killing instead, the memo concludes.

The undated memo is entitled “Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a U.S. Citizen who is a Senior Operational Leader of Al Qa’ida or An Associated Force.” It was provided to members of the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary committees in June by administration officials on the condition that it be kept confidential and not discussed publicly.

Although not an official legal memo, the white paper was represented by administration officials as a policy document that closely mirrors the arguments of classified memos on targeted killings by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides authoritative legal advice to the president and all executive branch agencies. The administration has refused to turn over to Congress or release those memos publicly -- or even publicly confirm their existence. A source with access to the white paper, which is not classified, provided a copy to NBC News.

“This is a chilling document,” said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, which is suing to obtain administration memos about the targeted killing of Americans. “Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. … It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it’s easy to see how they could be manipulated.”

In particular, Jaffer said, the memo “redefines the word imminence in a way that deprives the word of its ordinary meaning.”

A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment on the white paper. The spokeswoman, Tracy Schmaler, instead pointed to public speeches by what she called a “parade” of administration officials, including Brennan, Holder, former State Department Legal Adviser Harold Koh and former Defense Department General Counsel Jeh Johnson that she said outlined the “legal framework” for such operations.

Pressure for turning over the Justice Department memos on targeted killings of Americans appears to be building on Capitol Hill amid signs that Brennan will be grilled on the subject at his confirmation hearing before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Thursday.

On Monday, a bipartisan group of 11 senators -- led by Democrat Ron Wyden of Oregon — wrote a letter to President Barack Obama asking him to release all Justice Department memos on the subject. While accepting that “there will clearly be circumstances in which the president has the authority to use lethal force” against Americans who take up arms against the country, it said, “It is vitally important ... for Congress and the American public to have a full understanding of how the executive branch interprets the limits and boundaries of this authority.”

The completeness of the administration’s public accounts of its legal arguments was also sharply criticized last month by U.S. Judge Colleen McMahon in response to a lawsuit brought by the New York Times and the ACLU seeking access to the Justice Department memos on drone strikes targeting Americans under the Freedom of Information Act. McMahon, describing herself as being caught in a “veritable Catch-22,” said she was unable to order the release of the documents given “the thicket of laws and precedents that effectively allow the executive branch of our government to proclaim as perfectly lawful certain actions that seem on their face incompatible with our Constitution and laws while keeping the reasons for the conclusion a secret.”

In her ruling, McMahon noted that administration officials “had engaged in public discussion of the legality of targeted killing, even of citizens.” But, she wrote, they have done so “in cryptic and imprecise ways, generally without citing … any statute or court decision that justifies its conclusions.”

In one passage in Holder’s speech at Northwestern in March, he alluded – without spelling out—that there might be circumstances where the president might order attacks against American citizens without specific knowledge of when or where an attack against the U.S. might take place.

“The Constitution does not require the president to delay action until some theoretical end-stage of planning, when the precise time, place and manner of an attack become clear,” he said.

But his speech did not contain the additional language in the white paper suggesting that no active intelligence about a specific attack is needed to justify a targeted strike. Similarly, Holder said in his speech that targeted killings of Americans can be justified if “capture is not feasible.” But he did not include language in the white paper saying that an operation might not be feasible “if it could not be physically effectuated during the relevant window of opportunity or if the relevant country (where the target is located) were to decline to consent to a capture operation.” The speech also made no reference to the risk that might be posed to U.S. forces seeking to capture a target, as was mentioned in the white paper.

The white paper also includes a more extensive discussion of why targeted strikes against Americans does not violate constitutional protections afforded American citizens as well as a U.S. law that criminalizes the killing of U.S. nationals overseas.

It also discusses why such targeted killings would not be a war crime or violate a U.S. executive order banning assassinations.

“A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination,” the white paper reads. “In the Department’s view, a lethal operation conducted against a U.S. citizen whose conduct poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States would be a legitimate act of national self-defense that would not violate the assassination ban. Similarly, the use of lethal force, consistent with the laws of war, against an individual who is a legitimate military target would be lawful and would not violate the assassination ban.”

FBD
02-05-2013, 12:37 PM
hahaha, someone calling to release all the justice dept files on this. did you say pretty please, with fast & furious on top? :roll:

Acid Trip
02-05-2013, 02:07 PM
No due process = against the law = murder

Unless you are a narcissistic dumb ass who doesn't think the rules apply to you. Then it's fine.

RBP
02-05-2013, 02:24 PM
No due process = against the law = murder

Unless you are a narcissistic dumb ass who doesn't think the rules apply to you. Then it's fine.

Since when do we give anyone due process in theater? That would be never.

Perhaps I missed it but this isn't referring to attacks on US soil from my read.

FBD
02-05-2013, 02:36 PM
the white paper does explicitly mention that is the only context being considered by the paper. foreign land not already where the military is already on the ground or something.

but - process is process. if person in question is an american citizen, you cant kill him before he gets his day in court. they could at least notify him and have a trial, if suspect refuses to show then I'm sure the ACLU would be more than happy to provide legal representation. that is the proper way to do this, not kill first worry about fallout later.

Acid Trip
02-05-2013, 02:37 PM
Since when do we give anyone due process in theater? That would be never.

Perhaps I missed it but this isn't referring to attacks on US soil from my read.

It's attacks on US citizens without due process. They called it assassinations back when they were honest about it.

RBP
02-05-2013, 02:42 PM
Of course they are assassinations... that's what drone attacks are.

Let me think about this some more...

FBD
02-05-2013, 02:52 PM
so let's say you participate in treasonous activities and are part of a group that wants to take out the government.

does that exempt you from a trial?

RBP
02-05-2013, 02:55 PM
so let's say you participate in treasonous activities and are part of a group that wants to take out the government.

does that exempt you from a trial?

That's a big stretch from the definitions provided in the article.

FBD
02-05-2013, 07:59 PM
teh fook?

you dont need a trial to be convicted of treason and sentenced to death?

or is this simply the whole entire basis of calling these things extrajudicial, since they are taking place entirely outside of the realm of law?

Teh One Who Knocks
02-05-2013, 08:01 PM
teh fook?

you dont need a trial to be convicted of treason and sentenced to death?

or is this simply the whole entire basis of calling these things extrajudicial, since they are taking place entirely outside of the realm of law?

So if you (the general you, not you in particular) as an American perpetrate an act of war against the United States from foreign soil, you should be arrested and held for trial? :-s

DemonGeminiX
02-05-2013, 08:08 PM
The problems that I'm hearing and reading is that the language in these memos justifying the use of these drones is very vague. So vague that it can conceivably allow for the use of drones against Americans on US soil without judicial or congressional review.

The most extreme scenario that was painted was the guy in his mother's basement who vents on twitter or facebook several years down the line and whoever's in the Executive branch rules him as a threat to the security of the US and uses the drone to bomb the house.

RBP
02-05-2013, 08:09 PM
Part of me gets the concern, they're Americans, I know.

But part of me says "fuck 'em - reap what you sow motherfucker."

RBP
02-05-2013, 08:11 PM
The problems that I'm hearing and reading is that the language in these memos justifying the use of these drones is very vague. So vague that it can conceivably allow for the use of drones against Americans on US soil without judicial or congressional review.

The most extreme scenario that was painted was the guy in his mother's basement who vents on twitter or facebook several years down the line and whoever's in the Executive branch rules him as a threat to the security of the US and uses the drone to bomb the house.

I didn't read anything that makes me concerned about drone attacks on US soil coming from this.

Acid Trip
02-05-2013, 08:11 PM
So if you (the general you, not you in particular) as an American perpetrate an act of war against the United States from foreign soil, you should be arrested and held for trial? :-s

Charge him with treason THEN blow him up. We just can't have our government killing citizens without a reason.

RBP
02-05-2013, 08:15 PM
Charge him with treason THEN blow him up. We just can't have our government killing citizens without a reason.

I am not sure I value an American born terrorist's life any more than foreign born terrorist's life though... and we kill the the foreign ones and their innocent families at will.

DemonGeminiX
02-05-2013, 08:16 PM
I didn't read anything that makes me concerned about drone attacks on US soil coming from this.

I've had Fox News on all morning and they've been talking about it. The picture painted was an extreme case. I'm just relaying what was said.

FBD
02-05-2013, 08:18 PM
So if you (the general you, not you in particular) as an American perpetrate an act of war against the United States from foreign soil, you should be arrested and held for trial? :-s

Well, arrested and held sorta depends on extradition treaties, right? There's nothing preventing them from bringing the lawsuit and telling him to appear. That is the established legal way to do it.

At the same time, this is the process that needs to happen for such a determination to be made - and no amount of justice dept blather is going to change what the law is.

Vague language only complicates it further, it doesnt matter what the hell's in a memo saying "oh its only this one tiny little context we're intending on applying this to" because they dont write stuff for specific instances, they write it so that it can be applied in the future, and its opening a big door for them.

What of supply chain failures, martial law? How much of a stretch does it become to adapt the verbiage for use on terrorists? They're already in there, and all the government needs to do is declare you a terrorist, see we dont need to bother hauling your ass into court.

Hal-9000
02-05-2013, 08:19 PM
*looks upwards in thoughful looking pose*

so help me understand this....



If a US citizen is on foreign soil and does this from the article - "...even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S."


they get to use drones and wipe him out?

DemonGeminiX
02-05-2013, 08:21 PM
They just said it again. The idea was: if the President can kill an American citizen abroad without Congressional consultation or Judicial review, how long will it be until the President takes that extra extreme step and uses drones against American citizens here?

Again, it's an extreme point of view, but apparently the talking heads that've read this memo believe that the language is vague enough that it's possible that it could happen, nevermind the fact that they believe that an American citizen needs to be tried for their transgressions.

Hal-9000
02-05-2013, 08:28 PM
They just said it again. The idea was: if the President can kill an American citizen abroad without Congressional consultation or Judicial review, how long will it be until the President takes that extra extreme step and uses drones against American citizens here?

Again, it's an extreme point of view, but apparently the talking heads that've read this memo believe that the language is vague enough that it's possible that it could happen, nevermind the fact that they believe that an American citizen needs to be tried for their transgressions.

The movie Taxi to the dark Side featured similar terminology when it came to torturing suspected Al Qaeda members. After 9/11 they went ahead full bore when interrogating prisoners and then later tried to pin the oblique wording of the law on Donald Rumsfeld. Point is, they can't be vague when it comes to human lives :lol:

Muddy
02-05-2013, 08:35 PM
I didn't read anything that makes me concerned about drone attacks on US soil coming from this.

That's what the header makes you believe.. Propaganda story.

FBD
02-05-2013, 08:36 PM
Exactly, the lawyers got told "craft an argument that might get us around this problem."

DemonGeminiX
02-05-2013, 08:36 PM
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

That's the 5th amendment.


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 1 of the 14th amendment.

Muddy
02-05-2013, 08:40 PM
City in Virginia Becomes First to Pass Anti-Drone Legislation
Resolution bans all municipal agencies from buying or leasing drones





Charlottesville, Va., has become the first city in the United States to formally pass an anti-drone resolution.

The resolution, passed Monday, "calls on the United States Congress and the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia to adopt legislation prohibiting information obtained from the domestic use of drones from being introduced into a Federal or State court," and "pledges to abstain from similar uses with city-owned, leased, or borrowed drones."

PorkChopSandwiches
02-05-2013, 08:48 PM
:facepalm:

http://tehbasement.com/showthread.php?46622-City-in-Virginia-Becomes-First-to-Pass-Anti-Drone-Legislation

Hal-9000
02-05-2013, 08:49 PM
...city owned, leased or borrowed drones...


hey buddy can you lend me your drone for the weekend? :lol:

Acid Trip
02-05-2013, 08:59 PM
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

That's the 5th amendment.


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 1 of the 14th amendment.

Like I said, they killed him without charging him with any crime. That = problem according to the Constitution.

PorkChopSandwiches
02-05-2013, 09:31 PM
http://i.imgur.com/sAG2jmH.jpg

FBD
02-06-2013, 03:06 PM
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-02-05/white-house-judge-jury-and-executioner-both-drone-and-cyber-attacks

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/obamawithdrone.jpg






NBC News reports (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/05/16855539-judge-jury-and-executioner-legal-experts-fear-implications-of-white-house-drone-memo?lite):


Legal experts expressed grave reservations Tuesday about an Obama administration memo concluding that the United States can order the killing of American citizens believed to be affiliated with al-Qaida — with one saying the White House was acting as “judge, jury and executioner.”

“Anyone should be concerned when the president and his lawyers make up their own interpretation of the law or their own rules,” said Mary Ellen O’Connell, a law professor at the University of Notre Dame and an authority on international law and the use of force.

***

“This is a very, very dangerous thing that the president has done,” she added.
Glenn Greenwald, a constitutional lawyer who writes about security and liberty for the British newspaper The Guardian, described the memo as “fundamentally misleading,” with a clinical tone that disguises “the radical and dangerous power it purports to authorize.”

“If you believe the president has the power to order U.S. citizens executed far from any battlefield with no charges or trial, then it’s truly hard to conceive of any asserted power you would find objectionable,” he wrote (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/obama-kill-list-doj-memo).

Senator Wyden said (http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-statement-on-doj-memo-on-the-killing-of-americans-during-counterterrorism-operations):


Every American has the right to know when their government believes that it is allowed to kill them.

Top constitutional law expert Jonathan Turley notes (http://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/05/doj-memo-obama-administration-claims-broader-authority-to-kill-americans/):


In plain language, [the Obama administration memo] means that [any Americans can be assassinated if] the President considers the citizens to be a threat in the future. Moreover, the memo allows killings when an attempt to capture the person would pose an “undue risk” to U.S. personnel. That undue risk is left undefined.


I think I've seen that movie before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precrime#Precrime) ...

Given that drones are being deployed in the American homeland (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-same-secret-government-agency-which-spies-on-all-americans-also-decides-who-gets-assassinated-by-drones.html), some fear that the war is coming home (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/03/legal-experts-destroy-obamas-assassination-policy-and-slam-democrats-for-supporting-it.html).

Indeed, the military now considers the U.S. homeland to be a battlefield (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/03/fbi-director-have-to-check-to-see-if-obama-has-the-right-to-assassinate-americans-on-u-s-soil.html). The U.S. is already allowing military operations within the United States (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/congress-proposes-bill-to-allow.html). The Army is already being deployed on U.S. soil (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2008/09/army-to-be-deployed-inside-u-s-as-part-of-northcom.html), and the military is conducting numerous training exercises on American streets (https://www.google.com/search?q=northcom+exercise&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&sei=6g7IT_rTIqbS2QWZ7-HaDQ&gbv=2). (For more background, see this (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/08/2789687/military-training-in-the-middle.html), this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/12/constitutional-expert-president-obama-says-that-he-can-kill-you-on-his-own-discretion-he-can-jail-you-indefinitely-on-his-own-discretion.html), this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/03/fbi-director-have-to-check-to-see-if-obama-has-the-right-to-assassinate-americans-on-u-s-soil.html), this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/12/americans-are-military-targets-in-the-war-on-terror.html), and this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-same-secret-government-agency-which-spies-on-all-americans-also-decides-who-gets-assassinated-by-drones.html).)
Similarly, the White House has claimed the unilateral power to launch pre-emptive cyber-strikes (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/us/broad-powers-seen-for-obama-in-cyberstrikes.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=global-home&) against foreign nations. As FireDogLake notes (http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/02/04/legal-review-of-presidential-power-to-engage-in-preemptive-cyber-strikes-to-remain-secret/):


Like with the drone program, President Barack Obama is presiding over the creation and development of a power that previous presidents never imagined having. The national security state is effectively appointing him and all future presidents the proverbial judge, jury and executioner when it comes to cyber warfare.


As Greenwald makes clear, virtually all of the U.S. efforts regarding so-called "cyber-security" are actually efforts to create offensive attack (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/28/pentagon-cyber-security-expansion-stuxnet) capabilities.

And given that the government may consider normal Americans who criticize any government policy to be terrorists (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/u-s-military-may-consider-you-a-potential-terrorist-if-you-are-young-use-social-media-or-question-mainstream-ideologies.html) - and that the military is fighting against dissent on the Internet (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/pentagon-smears-usa-today-reporters-for-wait-for-it-investigating-illegal-pentagon-propaganda.html) - it is obvious that the cyber-attack capabilities are coming home to roost.

Of course, indiscriminate drone strikes are war crimes (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/21/drone-strikes-international-law-un) (and here (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/01/un-drone-inquiry/) and here (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/10/26)) , and cyber-attacks are a form of terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberterrorism). But that won't stop the U.S. (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/by-any-measure-the-u-s-is-the-worlds-largest-sponsor-of-terror.html) ... because it's only terrorism when other people do (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/ter·ror·ism-noun-when-other-people-do-what-we-do.html) what we do.

As Greenwald noted (http://www.salon.com/2012/03/06/attorney_general_holder_defends_execution_without_ charges/singleton/) last year:


We supposedly learned important lessons from the abuses of power of the Nixon administration, and then of the Bush administration: namely, that we don’t trust government officials to exercise power in the dark, with no judicial oversight, with no obligation to prove their accusations. Yet now we hear exactly this same mentality issuing from Obama, his officials and defenders to justify a far more extreme power than either Nixon or Bush dreamed of asserting: he’s only killing The Bad Citizens, so there’s no reason to object!

Greenwald notes (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/obama-kill-list-doj-memo) in an article today:

The core distortion of the War on Terror under both Bush and Obama is the Orwellian practice of equating government accusations of terrorism with proof of guilt. One constantly hears US government defenders referring to "terrorists" when what they actually mean is: those accused by the government of terrorism. This entire memo is grounded in this deceit.


Time and again, it emphasizes that the authorized assassinations are carried out "against a senior operational leader of al-Qaida or its associated forces who poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States." Undoubtedly fearing that this document would one day be public, Obama lawyers made certain to incorporate this deceit into the title itself: "Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a US Citizen Who is a Senior Operational Leader of al-Qaida or An Associated Force."

This ensures that huge numbers of citizens - those who spend little time thinking about such things and/or authoritarians who assume all government claims are true - will instinctively justify what is being done here on the ground that we must kill the Terrorists or joining al-Qaida means you should be killed. That's the "reasoning" process that has driven the War on Terror since it commenced: if the US government simply asserts without evidence or trial that someone is a terrorist, then they are assumed to be, and they can then be punished as such - with indefinite imprisonment or death.

But of course, when this memo refers to "a Senior Operational Leader of al-Qaida", what it actually means is this: someone whom the President - in total secrecy and with no due process - has accused of being that. Indeed, the memo itself makes this clear, as it baldly states that presidential assassinations are justified when "an informed, high-level official of the US government has determined that the targeted individual poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the US".

This is the crucial point: the memo isn't justifying the due-process-free execution of senior al-Qaida leaders who pose an imminent threat to the US. It is justifying the due-process-free execution of people secretly accused by the president and his underlings, with no due process, of being that. The distinction between (a) government accusations and (b) proof of guilt is central to every free society, by definition, yet this memo - and those who defend Obama's assassination power - willfully ignore it.

Those who justify all of this by arguing that Obama can and should kill al-Qaida leaders who are trying to kill Americans are engaged in supreme question-begging. Without any due process, transparency or oversight, there is no way to know who is a "senior al-Qaida leader" and who is posing an "imminent threat" to Americans. All that can be known is who Obama, in total secrecy, accuses of this.

(Indeed, membership in al-Qaida is not even required to be assassinated, as one can be a member of a group deemed to be an "associated force" of al-Qaida, whatever that might mean: a formulation so broad and ill-defined that, as Law Professor Kevin
Jon Heller argues (http://opiniojuris.org/2013/02/05/the-doj-white-papers-fatal-international-law-flaw/), it means the memo "authorizes the use of lethal force against individuals whose targeting is, without more, prohibited by international law".)

The definition of an extreme authoritarian is one who is willing blindly to assume that government accusations are true without any evidence presented or opportunity to contest those accusations. This memo - and the entire theory justifying Obama's kill list - centrally relies on this authoritarian conflation of government accusations and valid proof of guilt.

They are not the same and never have been. Political leaders who decree guilt in secret and with no oversight inevitably succumb to error and/or abuse of power. Such unchecked accusatory decrees are inherently untrustworthy (indeed, Yemen experts (https://twitter.com/gregorydjohnsen/status/75837444557258752) have vehemently contested (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/20/opinion/20johnsen.html) the claim that Awlaki himself was a senior al-Qaida leader posing an imminent threat (https://twitter.com/gregorydjohnsen/status/75838992544841729) to the US). That's why due process is guaranteed in the Constitution and why judicial review of government accusations has been a staple of western justice since the Magna Carta: because leaders can't be trusted to decree guilt and punish citizens without evidence and an adversarial process. That is the age-old basic right on which this memo, and the Obama presidency, is waging war.


We've previously pointed out (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/03/the-governments-indefinite-detention-policy-is-based-on-circular-reasoning.html) the absurdity of the government's circular reasoning in the context of indefinite detention:


The government’s indefinite detention policy – stripped of it’s spin – is literally insane, and based on circular reasoning. Stripped of p.r., this is the actual policy:

If you are an enemy combatant or a threat to national security, we will detain you indefinitely (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/07/AR2011030704871.html) until the war is over[/*]
It is a perpetual war (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/01/17-6), which will never be over[/*]
Neither you or your lawyers (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/08/well-known-lawyer-discusses-justice.html) have a right to see the evidence against you, nor to face your accusers[/*]
But trust us, we know you are an enemy combatant and a threat to national security[/*]
We may torture you (and try to cover up the fact that you were tortured (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/7/guantanamo_attorneys_face_possible_prison_time)), because you are an enemy combatant, and so basic rights of a prisoner guaranteed by the Geneva Convention don’t apply to you[/*]
Since you admitted that you’re a bad guy (while trying to tell us whatever you think we want to hear (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/04/top-interrogation-experts-agree-torture-doesnt-work.html) to make the torture stop), it proves that we should hold you in indefinite detention[/*]

See how that works?

The Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves, as the separation of powers they fought and died for is being destroyed. We’ve gone from a nation of laws to a nation of powerful men making laws in secret (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/weve-gone-from-nation-of-laws-to-nation.html), where Congressional leaders themselves aren’t even allow to see the laws (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/06/international-treaty-negotiated-in-secret-even-hiding-the-terms-from-congressmen-with-every-reason-to-see-them-threatens-to-destroy-national-sovereignty.html), or to learn about covert programs (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/07/the-cias-rogue-operation.html). A nation where Congressmen are threatened with martial law (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/10/government-leaders-said-bailouts-were-needed-because-the-house-next-door-was-burning-down-were-they-right.html) if they don’t approve radical programs.
Indeed, Bush and Obama have literally set the clock back 800 years ... to before the signing of the Magna Carta (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/12/its-not-a-fiscal-cliff-its-the-descent-into-lawless-anarchy.html).

FBD
02-06-2013, 09:23 PM
ED SCHULTZ: I have to say, as an American citizen, we are all entitled to due process under the law. And this document gives the president the ability to act as judge, jury and executioner. I’m troubled by it. It doesn’t meet the moral or the constitutional standard that we expect of any administration, and I have to say that liberals have come certainly a long way to crying about the FISA court and the Patriot Act and listening in on conversations to literally taking out innocent people around the world. We’re losing the moral high ground by doing this, and even more troubling, there are people in Washington who are ominously silent and not questioning this process and willing to stand behind the legal opinion of the justice department. This is President Obama’s legacy right now. It is dangerous.


:lol:

RBP
02-06-2013, 09:26 PM
ED SCHULTZ: I have to say, as an American citizen, we are all entitled to due process under the law. And this document gives the president the ability to act as judge, jury and executioner. I’m troubled by it. It doesn’t meet the moral or the constitutional standard that we expect of any administration, and I have to say that liberals have come certainly a long way to crying about the FISA court and the Patriot Act and listening in on conversations to literally taking out innocent people around the world. We’re losing the moral high ground by doing this, and even more troubling, there are people in Washington who are ominously silent and not questioning this process and willing to stand behind the legal opinion of the justice department. This is President Obama’s legacy right now. It is dangerous.


:lol:

Ed Schultz is a moron, but a loyal moron. I am surprised he is going against the Administration on anything.

PorkChopSandwiches
02-06-2013, 09:28 PM
http://i.imgur.com/dDB2y8i.jpg