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View Full Version : Price of Keystone Pipeline may be Carbon Tax



Acid Trip
02-13-2013, 03:09 PM
For our friends up North. It appears as though Obama is your problem too!

Tax could provide cover for approval of oil sands pipeline

http://i.imgur.com/Y60qfba.jpg

Hello Canada! Are you ready — ready for a new national tax on carbon that will ding pocketbooks across the country? My bet is that a new carbon tax is coming, made almost inevitable by Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s full-bore push to secure Washington’s approval of the Keystone XL pipeline.

For early clues on the carbon tax/Keystone trade-off, tune in Tuesday night to President Barack Obama’s State of the Union address. As the president speaks, he will be alert to the chorus of Hollywood stars, environmental activists, editorial writers and industry leaders who are pushing for him to make the biggest climate-change decision he can possibly make: Impose a carbon tax.

It is time Canadians became aware of the giant trap being set in Washington over Keystone. The short version is this: The president approves Keystone, greatly expanding the flow of Canadian oil sands production into the United States. In return, however, Canada has no choice but to accept a carbon tax at home as part of a grand bargain.

I first mentioned the likely Obama pipelines-for-taxes strategy in comments at the annual Financial Post forecast luncheon at the New Year. “I see new taxes coming in the United States, including an energy or carbon tax, to try to cover the deficits. The new energy tax would serve as partial cover for President Obama’s approval of the Keystone XL pipeline.”

That Mr. Obama might offer some kind of carbon tax as a carrot to environmentalists and climate activists opposed to Keystone has since emerged as more than plausible. Wall Street Journal columnist Kimberley Strassel recently outlined how the president might demand a carbon tax in return for approval of energy projects, including Keystone. Getting a carbon tax through Congress looks tricky. But Ms. Strassel reported that California Senator Barbara Boxer outlined how a carbon tax could be imposed administratively through the Environmental Protection Agency.

The Keystone-carbon tax trade off was also suggested in a recent editorial in Nature, the science journal. The editorial was big news in Canada, thanks to its endorsement of Keystone and Canada’s oil sands. “Regarding the Keystone pipeline,” said Nature, “the administration should face down critics of the project, ensure environmental standards are met and then approve it.” The science writers at Nature also benevolently said Canada’s oil sands are “not as dirty as many believe.”

Wow. Prestige science mag says tar sands OK! What Nature was really proposing, however, was that Mr. Obama use Keystone as cover for a range of other policies. “By approving Keystone, Obama can bolster his credibility within industry and among conservatives.” While conservatives are lulled, Nature proposed new regulations, crackdown on the coal industry, and a carbon tax.

The Washington Post is on the same two-track policy theme. Last month the Post urged the president to “ignore the activists who have bizarrely chosen to make Keystone XL a line-in-the-sand issue.” Last week, in a climate-change editorial, the Post presented the other half of the bargain with a ringing endorsement of a carbon tax. Putting a “slowly rising, significant price on carbon emissions” would encourage people to burn less fossil fuel. As an added fiscal bonus, since Washington needs new revenues to meet its fiscal crisis, “a carbon tax would be an ideal source” of revenue.

So the stage is set for Mr. Obama to magically saw the climate-change issue down the middle and come out a winner: approve Keystone to placate one side and impose a carbon tax and other regulations to keep the other side happy.

Keeping peace with the activist left will not be easy. A two-bit chorus of B-grade Hollywood stars — Alec Baldwin, Ed Norton, Yoko Ono — are backing the Sierra Club’s call for a march on Washington next weekend, “the largest climate rally in U.S. history.” Under the “Forward on Climate” banner, the target is clear in the Sierra Club’s marching call: “The first step to putting our country on the path to addressing the climate crisis is for President Obama to reject the Keystone XL tar sands pipeline.”

Under the Sierra Club vision, however, nothing short of total elimination of fossil fuels will satisfy. Since Mr. Obama cannot and does not want to fulfill that particular extreme fantasy, he can afford to disappoint activists on some issues — including Keystone — if he can deliver something that looks like a carbon tax.

If the United States does shuffle toward a carbon tax, Canada will have little choice. A carbon tax, as proposed by many, would impose a levy on carbon entering the United States, including oil from Canada. The bargain offered Canada would be this: We accept your oil and gas, but if you don’t put a carbon tax on it we will. In other words, a North American carbon tax would unite Canada and the United States.

Ottawa and Alberta seem ready for anything to get Keystone approved. The level of appeasement if not desperation in the language of Canadian politicians rises by the day. Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver — heading to Washington to plead for Keystone’s approval — says Canada is moving in “lockstep” with Washington on environmental issues. Trade Minister John Baird said Ottawa is “like-minded” on environmental objectives. Mr. Obama and Mr. Harper, he said, have both set a 17% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

Alberta’s new representative in Washington, David Manning, said last week Premier Alison Redford is ready to deal with Washington over Keystone. “We have much more in our toolbox” to offer Washington in return for a green light on Keystone, he said, without elaborating.

Many in the oil industry in Canada and the United States support a carbon tax paid by consumers, especially if it means getting political support for energy projects. Better to tax consumers than industry. The Canada West Foundation, a big Keystone booster, has often supported a carbon tax in Canada. “We need a carbon price: transparent, unmistakable and extending across the economy,” wrote a foundation official recently.

Fully implemented, a carbon tax would impose major burdens on consumers and energy users in an effort to use so-called “market signals” to reduce fossil fuel use. For Canadians, the trade-off would be higher prices for energy at home in exchange for greater energy exports to the United States. Hello Canada!

FBD
02-13-2013, 03:15 PM
ya beat me to it, except my headline was going to be...

and here you canadians thought you were safely far away from Obama! he's like mr hankey, wherever he jumps he's going to leave a blob of shitstain there!

how are yall going to feel now that he's fucking you guys, too?

RBP
02-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Obama said a "market-based" solution in the speech last night, so to me that means a carbon credit market and taxes. Stupidity.

FBD
02-13-2013, 03:42 PM
No shit, the carbon trading market is already 99.9% dead because it is an utter farce

Muddy
02-13-2013, 04:09 PM
Why is everybody have such a hard on for this pipeline? It's not going to bring us cheaper oil.. It will only make it easier to export off of the continent.

Acid Trip
02-13-2013, 04:15 PM
Why is everybody have such a hard on for this pipeline? It's not going to bring us cheaper oil.. It will only make it easier to export off of the continent.

Easy. You have to build the pipeline (jobs), maintain it (jobs), refine the oil into gasoline (jobs), ship the gasoline (jobs), and reduce our trade deficit with other countries.

And then there is added benefit of the USA getting oil that would otherwise be sold to Communist China. And not just some oil, LOTS of oil.

Muddy
02-13-2013, 04:16 PM
Easy. You have to build the pipeline (jobs), maintain it (jobs), refine the oil into gasoline (jobs), ship the gasoline (jobs), and reduce our trade deficit with other countries.


http://i.imgur.com/lDFrypp.jpg




And then there is added benefit of the USA getting oil that would otherwise be sold to Communist China. And not just some oil, LOTS of oil.


We arent getting the oil though!! It's a commodity and still go's to the highest bidder..

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2013, 04:20 PM
We arent getting the oil though!! It's a commodity and still go's to the highest bidder..

Only the price is set on the commodity market, the actual money still goes to who you are buying it from. So in this case we would be paying PetroCanada (for example) instead of Sheik Habib Oil Co in Saudi Arabia.

Muddy
02-13-2013, 04:25 PM
Only the price is set on the commodity market, the actual money still goes to who you are buying it from. So in this case we would be paying PetroCanada (for example) instead of Sheik Habib Oil Co in Saudi Arabia.

Not to be mean to our Canadian friends.. But really, exploiting sensitive lands so they can benefit over the Saudis doesn't make me want to jump in rank and file..

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2013, 04:32 PM
Not to be mean to our Canadian friends.. But really, exploiting sensitive lands so they can benefit over the Saudis doesn't make me want to jump in rank and file..

The Canadians aren't using their oil money to fund and train terrorists that want to blow us up ;)

Muddy
02-13-2013, 04:36 PM
The Canadians aren't using their oil money to fund and train terrorists that want to blow us up ;)

Regardless of who purchases the oil from the Saudis, the Saudis will continue and pump and sell their oil on the open market. I'm not sure how this transaction actually changes that.. No where does it say that OPEC will be the purchaser of this oil.. And if the Chinese are the current high bidder (which I have heard tales/threats of from the Canadians) we wont be buying it either..

Obviously the Canadians need us to be able sell this oil because of our infrastructure that is in place. They need to buck up and foot the bill for being able to do this thing responsibly..

FBD
02-13-2013, 04:39 PM
exploiting sensitive lands :lol: muddy, you wish you could exploit sensitive lands :razz:

what do you think it does to the market price when a whole shitass ton of new product comes on line?

Muddy
02-13-2013, 04:43 PM
what do you think it does to the market price when a whole shitass ton of new product comes on line?

I cant dispute this...

But I also can't dispute that most of this transaction is so an American Oil company can get their commission on a huge oil deal.. Do we really need our broke govt. subsidizing their profits?

FBD
02-13-2013, 04:45 PM
Are they subsidizing it? I thought this whole hubbub was just over the lease/ability to do it, not the gov financing it. Because that's why it was initially blocked, permit shit, not government funding.

Muddy
02-13-2013, 04:49 PM
Are they subsidizing it? I thought this whole hubbub was just over the lease/ability to do it, not the gov financing it. Because that's why it was initially blocked, permit shit, not government funding.

There always is a cost.. It may be indirect, but we'll pay.. Don't worry. :tinfoil:

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2013, 05:05 PM
I cant dispute this...

But I also can't dispute that most of this transaction is so an American Oil company can get their commission on a huge oil deal.. Do we really need our broke govt. subsidizing their profits?

http://i.imgur.com/06p8tZi.png

Acid Trip
02-13-2013, 05:25 PM
http://i.imgur.com/06p8tZi.png

I don't think he actually meant commission. Yes, an American oil company will make a lot of money refining Canadian oil into fuel but that's generally how businesses operate.

You send it to me, I refine it, I send it back (or somewhere else) minus my refining fee.

Muddy
02-13-2013, 05:30 PM
I don't think he actually meant commission. Yes, an American oil company will make a lot of money refining Canadian oil into fuel but that's generally how businesses operate.

You send it to me, I refine it, I send it back (or somewhere else) minus my refining fee.

I struggled for the appropriate word in that statement.

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
ok here's the truth...we already pay more for the same products up here. Everything from food to electronics to furniture to cars...and for gas. Since the dollars are almost comparable on the world market, it's time we started enjoying some sort of parity for the same damn things.

Decades ago a little thing called the Free Trade Agreement was signed between our two countries and it's been anything but equitable for Canadian goods and services.


Not trying to start a continental war here but we are one of the largest entities in the world market when it comes to exploration, refining and distributing of fuel. America is no slouch in that department either, but the truth of the matter is - do you want to live off the whim of the Saudis the rest of your life or do business with your closest neighbor and ally?

The pipeline is just that...a method to move a resource from A to B. If Obama wants to impose a carbon tax on a commodity that originates in Alaska or northern Alberta....he better step lightly. The world oil market is so precarious that when a terrorist group merely threatens a refinery in Arabia, with no actual physical action, the price of a barrel of oil goes up 20 bucks.

It's time both of our countries looked further inward for a better, more beneficial solution to oil refining and distribution and started edging those overseas guys away from thinking that the world needs them to survive

Muddy
02-13-2013, 11:25 PM
Hal, the pipeline moves oil to the gulf.. For shipping.. Out of North America.

I do see your valid points though...

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:26 PM
I went off in a little FBD tangent there :lol:

point is - a carbon tax implemented just to discourage people from using fossil fuels is asinine and helps neither of our countries...Obama can try and placate whomever he likes, we've been on the world market for years with our province's number one export and he can suck huge CANADIAN COCK

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:28 PM
Hal, the pipeline moves oil to the gulf.. For shipping.. Out of the US.

Yeah...I'm aware. Don't forget where I live and what our city's economy is based on.


My point was simple, the pipeline transverses both of our countries and Mr Obama can only speak for one....

Muddy
02-13-2013, 11:28 PM
I went off in a little FBD tangent there :lol:

point is - a carbon tax implemented just to discourage people from using fossil fuels is asinine and helps neither of our countries...Obama can try and placate whomever he likes, we've been on the world market for years with our province's number one export and he can suck huge CANADIAN COCK

Whats it like having Obama be your president as well? :mrgreen:

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:33 PM
I got a little riled up there :lol:

sure, I'm all for moving to better forms of energy but the simple fact of the story is that he wants to impose a tax to appease a green group... and levy that gift onto us


fookin bastid :x

Muddy
02-13-2013, 11:34 PM
Welcome to America, Brudder.. :lol:

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:40 PM
and this is another thing that pisses me off.....solid line is original plan

they can save over 1000 miles distance by having it run diagonally down to the gulf rather than the goofy dogleg east, then south




http://i47.tinypic.com/13zqzac.jpg

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:41 PM
and yes I know why it was planned that way..

Muddy
02-13-2013, 11:42 PM
and this is another thing that pisses me off.....solid line is original plan

they can save over 1000 miles distance by having it run diagonally down to the gulf rather than the goofy dogleg east, then south




http://i47.tinypic.com/13zqzac.jpg

Everybody wants a piece of that pie

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:43 PM
yeah....just made us top 3 on the terrorist hit list :sad2:

Muddy
02-13-2013, 11:46 PM
Watch out for the drones..

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2013, 11:46 PM
Hal, the pipeline moves oil to the gulf.. For shipping.. Out of North America.

I do see your valid points though...

It's not just for exporting, the Gulf Coast is where there is a boatload of refineries. The crude gets shipped there to be refined and then much of it (the gasoline) will stay here in this country and the rest will be exported.

Would you rather have American refineries get the oil or have those jobs go overseas to the Chinese along with all the other jobs they have taken?

Hal-9000
02-13-2013, 11:50 PM
I could cut into the pipeline, strap on a Krazy Carpet and swim fins.....and then go down and visit Muddy :face:

Muddy
02-13-2013, 11:55 PM
It's not just for exporting, the Gulf Coast is where there is a boatload of refineries. The crude gets shipped there to be refined and then much of it (the gasoline) will stay here in this country and the rest will be exported.

Would you rather have American refineries get the oil or have those jobs go overseas to the Chinese along with all the other jobs they have taken?

Run it through the tip,of Virginia so we can get our 5% and i'll sign off on it.. :razz:

Hal-9000
02-14-2013, 12:01 AM
It veers away from the hollar....wtf Muddy? You guys don't use oil? :lol:

Muddy
02-14-2013, 12:33 AM
It veers away from the hollar....wtf Muddy? You guys don't use oil? :lol:

Its modern day racism...

Acid Trip
02-14-2013, 02:30 PM
Not trying to start a continental war here but we are one of the largest entities in the world market when it comes to exploration, refining and distributing of fuel.

Yup, and if you combine that with the US (world's largest refiner and exporter of gasoline) it's a match made in heaven.

FBD
02-14-2013, 03:06 PM
ok here's the truth...we already pay more for the same products up here. Everything from food to electronics to furniture to cars...and for gas. Since the dollars are almost comparable on the world market, it's time we started enjoying some sort of parity for the same damn things.

Decades ago a little thing called the Free Trade Agreement was signed between our two countries and it's been anything but equitable for Canadian goods and services.


Not trying to start a continental war here but we are one of the largest entities in the world market when it comes to exploration, refining and distributing of fuel. America is no slouch in that department either, but the truth of the matter is - do you want to live off the whim of the Saudis the rest of your life or do business with your closest neighbor and ally?

The pipeline is just that...a method to move a resource from A to B. If Obama wants to impose a carbon tax on a commodity that originates in Alaska or northern Alberta....he better step lightly. The world oil market is so precarious that when a terrorist group merely threatens a refinery in Arabia, with no actual physical action, the price of a barrel of oil goes up 20 bucks.

It's time both of our countries looked further inward for a better, more beneficial solution to oil refining and distribution and started edging those overseas guys away from thinking that the world needs them to survive

we tried, they stole the election anyway :dance: the pundits were correct but they stayed inside the lines in their assessments.

NAFTA was a fuck job.

Muddy
02-14-2013, 03:15 PM
Yup, and if you combine that with the US (world's largest refiner and exporter of gasoline) it's a match made in heaven.

Lets do it and close the global trade out of the equation.

Hal-9000
02-14-2013, 03:20 PM
we tried, they stole the election anyway :dance: the pundits were correct but they stayed inside the lines in their assessments.

NAFTA was a fuck job.


NAFTA is a word like fu-Q up here :lol:

screwed like a 20 dolla ho in a marine boot camp on a Friday night...yep

FBD
02-14-2013, 03:31 PM
also part of the myth of the clinton surplus ;) sacrifice at home fundamentals for a better looking aggregate trade balance. look what it manifested yearsss down the line.