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RBP
05-05-2011, 03:48 AM
MADRID/BERLIN (Reuters) – European happiness with the death of Osama bin Laden was tempered on Wednesday by details showing he was unarmed when shot dead and qualms about whether torture of prisoners helped U.S. forces track him down.

Al Qaeda leader bin Laden -- the world's most wanted man -- was shot in the head in a U.S. special forces raid on his walled villa hideout in Pakistan on Monday.

In Germany and Spain, legislators questioned Chancellor Angela Merkel and Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero over their enthusiastic praise of U.S. President Barack Obama.

"It's likely that bin Laden sought his own destiny," Zapatero told parliament on Wednesday after Gaspar Llamazares, deputy from the small leftist party Izquierda Unida, questioned his congratulating Obama.

Zapatero said "any democrat" would have preferred bin Laden stood trial, but that he understood how the operation ended in the way it did for "one of history's bloodiest criminals."

Islamist militants set off bombs simultaneously in four packed commuter trains in Madrid in March 2004, killing 191 people and wounding more than 2,000, in attacks they said were inspired but not ordered by al Qaeda.

In Germany a senior member of parliament from Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union, Siegfried Kauder, criticized her statement on Monday which said she was "glad that killing bin Laden was successful".

"I wouldn't have used those words. That is a vengeful way of thinking that one shouldn't have. That's mediaeval," he said.

"A random killing is not permitted according to international agreements. If one concludes that bin Laden was no longer active (running al Qaeda operations around the world), the killing could be seen as random."

Defending the choices made by the troops who stormed bin Laden's compound in the early hours of Monday, the U.S. government's attorney-general, Eric Holder, said on Wednesday: "It was justified as an act of national self-defense."

He said bin Laden made no attempt to surrender. If he had done, that would have been accepted, he added.

WHY NO TRIAL?

Television and radio hosts zeroed in Washington's revision of certain details of the operation, such as the fact that bin Laden was not armed and that the woman killed had not been used as a shield, saying his death looked more now like an execution.

Speakers on a Spanish talk show questioned the official version of the burial at sea of bin Laden's body and said Obama's image would suffer among Europeans who would rather have seen a capture and trial.

Europeans also jumped into the renewed debate over torture and so-called enhanced interrogation technique after U.S. officials said key sources of initial information that led to bin Laden came from at least one prisoner that was tortured.

Many Europeans struggled to understand the open celebrations in the streets of New York and Washington earlier this week.

"While many nations suffered from al Qaeda's terrorism and few in the world will mourn bin Laden's death, the United States is the only place where it sparked spontaneous outpourings of raucous jubilation," wrote columnist Gary Younge in Britain's left-leaning Guardian newspaper.

"The initial euphoria in the United States may be quite difficult for people in Western Europe to take, but in one sense is understandable in the context. The 9-11 attacks were perhaps more visceral than most people expected. The impact on the United States was more deep-seated," said Paul Rogers, professor of Peace Studies at the University of Bradford.

Al Qaeda militants flew hijacked airliners into New York's World Trade Center and Washington's Pentagon building on September 11, 2001, killing nearly 3,000 people.

Some commentators said Obama could lose his luster in Europe, where he has been widely admired for taking a more multilateral, collaborative approach to foreign policy than his predecessor George W. Bush.

But the center-left French daily Le Monde said in an editorial that Obama had struck the right tone, saying he had announced the news in a sober speech, without sounding triumphant.

"Nothing of the ridiculous 'mission accomplished' of ... Bush, dressed as a fighter pilot, to proclaim in 2003 ... the U.S. 'victory' in Iraq," said le Monde.

Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper expressed misgivings about the legality of the killing.

"Which law covers the execution of bin Laden?" wrote Heribert Prantl, a senior editor at the left-leaning daily.

"U.S. law requires trials before death penalties are carried out. Executions are forbidden in countries based on rule of law. Martial law doesn't cover the U.S. operation either. The decision to kill the godfather of terror was political."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110504/wl_nm/us_binladen_europe


:-k

Deepsepia
05-05-2011, 03:58 AM
ah . . . second thoughts?

OK, someone send a fishing boat to dredge the Indian Ocean, and then have docs put him back together.

I'm sure he'll be OK, and we can give him a trial . . .

for fucks sake people . . . the dude sought martyrdom, he got what he wanted.

Godfather
05-05-2011, 04:11 AM
The fog of war is a bitch.... suck it up princess

samarchepas
05-05-2011, 04:31 AM
He was not armed...so? Were the 2900ish people he got killed armed?... It took months to prepare the attacks...plenty of time for second thoughts.

Hal-9000
05-05-2011, 07:10 AM
Living next door to America is like going to school with an older brother.He's stronger, he can run faster, he's more popular and he gets more girls.After a while you resign yourself to a position of
passive interested observation, much like watching a good football game as you're standing behind a fence.

Is America too proud, too arrogant, maybe a little too pushy at times? Perhaps...

America is also the country that goes where angels fear to tread.In this past century, my big brother has done everything from helping stop a lunatic from exterminating entire races off of this planet...
to helping tiny third world countries put the pieces back together again, after mother nature tears them apart.

I sometimes forget that I live beside the largest superpower on the planet.I've read about every war and conflict since 1901.The commonality or recurring theme I see, is that America gives other countries a chance.
I believe this fact is overlooked too often.The world may not agree with some of the choices America has made, yet I find that I sleep more soundly knowing my asshole big brother is around somewhere.



To the people in this article I can only say this - Time heals all wounds...unless the wounds are yours.This isn't just about 911.It's about Madrid, it's about London, it's about Paris...it is about the entire Middle East and a religious ideal that's out of control.Some will write history and say that America executed a defenseless man without giving him a trial.The history I foresee is that America saved lives by removing one more monster from the chess board of life.Well done.

Pony
05-05-2011, 10:43 AM
Living next door to America is like going to school with an older brother.He's stronger, he can run faster, he's more popular and he gets more girls.After a while you resign yourself to a position of
passive interested observation, much like watching a good football game as you're standing behind a fence.

Is America too proud, too arrogant, maybe a little too pushy at times? Perhaps...

America is also the country that goes where angels fear to tread.In this past century, my big brother has done everything from helping stop a lunatic from exterminating entire races off of this planet...
to helping tiny third world countries put the pieces back together again, after mother nature tears them apart.

I sometimes forget that I live beside the largest superpower on the planet.I've read about every war and conflict since 1901.The commonality or recurring theme I see, is that America gives other countries a chance.
I believe this fact is overlooked too often.The world may not agree with some of the choices America has made, yet I find that I sleep more soundly knowing my asshole big brother is around somewhere.



To the people in this article I can only say this - Time heals all wounds...unless the wounds are yours.This isn't just about 911.It's about Madrid, it's about London, it's about Paris...it is about the entire Middle East and a religious ideal that's out of control.Some will write history and say that America executed a defenseless man without giving him a trial.The history I foresee is that America saved lives by removing one more monster from the chess board of life.Well done.


:beerchug:

Muddy
05-05-2011, 12:51 PM
Living next door to America is like going to school with an older brother.He's stronger, he can run faster, he's more popular and he gets more girls.After a while you resign yourself to a position of
passive interested observation, much like watching a good football game as you're standing behind a fence.

Is America too proud, too arrogant, maybe a little too pushy at times? Perhaps...

America is also the country that goes where angels fear to tread.In this past century, my big brother has done everything from helping stop a lunatic from exterminating entire races off of this planet...
to helping tiny third world countries put the pieces back together again, after mother nature tears them apart.

I sometimes forget that I live beside the largest superpower on the planet.I've read about every war and conflict since 1901.The commonality or recurring theme I see, is that America gives other countries a chance.
I believe this fact is overlooked too often.The world may not agree with some of the choices America has made, yet I find that I sleep more soundly knowing my asshole big brother is around somewhere.



To the people in this article I can only say this - Time heals all wounds...unless the wounds are yours.This isn't just about 911.It's about Madrid, it's about London, it's about Paris...it is about the entire Middle East and a religious ideal that's out of control.Some will write history and say that America executed a defenseless man without giving him a trial.The history I foresee is that America saved lives by removing one more monster from the chess board of life.Well done.

That was a nice piece Hal.. It's different to hear someone outside the boundary lines put forth a viewpoint that isnt pointed and hurtful... Thanks! I to lift a beer in your honor..:beerchug:

Acid Trip
05-05-2011, 01:04 PM
Living next door to America is like going to school with an older brother.He's stronger, he can run faster, he's more popular and he gets more girls.After a while you resign yourself to a position of
passive interested observation, much like watching a good football game as you're standing behind a fence.

Is America too proud, too arrogant, maybe a little too pushy at times? Perhaps...

America is also the country that goes where angels fear to tread.In this past century, my big brother has done everything from helping stop a lunatic from exterminating entire races off of this planet...
to helping tiny third world countries put the pieces back together again, after mother nature tears them apart.

I sometimes forget that I live beside the largest superpower on the planet.I've read about every war and conflict since 1901.The commonality or recurring theme I see, is that America gives other countries a chance.
I believe this fact is overlooked too often.The world may not agree with some of the choices America has made, yet I find that I sleep more soundly knowing my asshole big brother is around somewhere.



To the people in this article I can only say this - Time heals all wounds...unless the wounds are yours.This isn't just about 911.It's about Madrid, it's about London, it's about Paris...it is about the entire Middle East and a religious ideal that's out of control.Some will write history and say that America executed a defenseless man without giving him a trial.The history I foresee is that America saved lives by removing one more monster from the chess board of life.Well done.

Amen to that! The United States is the equivalent of someone who is drop dead sexy, smart as hell, and tough as nails. If you aren't friends with us you're jealous. It's human nature to be jealous so we forgive you Europe :wave:

FBD
05-05-2011, 01:44 PM
smart as hell, with a huge spending problem...:-s

KevinD
05-05-2011, 02:24 PM
Living next door to America is like going to school with an older brother.He's stronger, he can run faster, he's more popular and he gets more girls.After a while you resign yourself to a position of
passive interested observation, much like watching a good football game as you're standing behind a fence.

Is America too proud, too arrogant, maybe a little too pushy at times? Perhaps...

America is also the country that goes where angels fear to tread.In this past century, my big brother has done everything from helping stop a lunatic from exterminating entire races off of this planet...
to helping tiny third world countries put the pieces back together again, after mother nature tears them apart.

I sometimes forget that I live beside the largest superpower on the planet.I've read about every war and conflict since 1901.The commonality or recurring theme I see, is that America gives other countries a chance.
I believe this fact is overlooked too often.The world may not agree with some of the choices America has made, yet I find that I sleep more soundly knowing my asshole big brother is around somewhere.



To the people in this article I can only say this - Time heals all wounds...unless the wounds are yours.This isn't just about 911.It's about Madrid, it's about London, it's about Paris...it is about the entire Middle East and a religious ideal that's out of control.Some will write history and say that America executed a defenseless man without giving him a trial.The history I foresee is that America saved lives by removing one more monster from the chess board of life.Well done.

Hmm, having never truly lived outside the USA, I can't say that I really truly understand other viewpoints. That is one of the reasons I don't get why so many bash the USA. Unless you grew up here, you really can't understand what it means to me to be from the USA, just like I can't truly get all the nuances of growing up in say, Thailand...
I have spent years traveling the globe, and l have ate, gotten drunk, shared religious services, and in general had a grand ole time with so many people I have truly lost track. That said, I can get where some think the USA is a bully in ways, but, like Hal alluded to here, okay, yeah we're the big brother (I think of it more as the younger brother), and yeah maybe we'll give you a beat down when we think you're screwing up, but..who is right there with you, no matter what, ask questions later, got your back..etc, etc.
One of the things that truly confuses me, it that some of the countries that espouse the most vitriol against the USA are the same ones we spend the most $$ helping to support. I honestly think sometimes that given just a bit more BS, I could easily turn into an Isolationist, but realistically, it just wouldn't work in theis day and age.
I get pretty tired of my government spending billions of dollars aiding other countries after natural disasters, but, it doesn't seem to me that others help us in our time of need. I could be mistaken, but that's the way if feels sometimes.

In my rambling, semi-coherent fashion, what I am trying to say is: Thanks Hal (and others who agree) It's nice to know that some of the good things aren't completely being ignored. We are no more perfect as a people, government or society than any other.

KevinD
05-05-2011, 02:28 PM
Oh yeah, and Hal? Perhaps you should lay down the pipe for a bit..you almost sounded like you kinda sorta like us, hahhahaha J/k bro, very nicely written.

beowulf
05-05-2011, 03:28 PM
no discomfort here.................i am kinda disgusted that he was shot twice tho, no need for that..................id have finished off the whole mag!

seriously, everyone i know is damn glad how it turned out

the world is one motherfucker short today....rejoice!

Acid Trip
05-05-2011, 03:29 PM
I just realized why I like KevinD so much. He's a fellow Texan :mrgreen:

Hal-9000
05-05-2011, 03:58 PM
:oops:

Lance musta logged on last night and used my account

beowulf
05-05-2011, 04:00 PM
:oops:

Lance musta logged on last night and used my account

pish!.....we will be calling you Bubba next ;)

Hal-9000
05-05-2011, 04:00 PM
no discomfort here.................i am kinda disgusted that he was shot twice tho, no need for that..................id have finished off the whole mag!

seriously, everyone i know is damn glad how it turned out

the world is one motherfucker short today....rejoice!

:lol: the whole mag...




I guess for the naysayers the alternative could be - Let's just let people like Saddam and Osama do their thing and see how the world turns out :face: