PDA

View Full Version : Stephen Hawking: 'There are no black holes'



Teh One Who Knocks
01-27-2014, 11:51 AM
Zeeya Merali - Nature


http://i.imgur.com/BIq2PPB.jpg

Most physicists foolhardy enough to write a paper claiming that “there are no black holes” — at least not in the sense we usually imagine — would probably be dismissed as cranks. But when the call to redefine these cosmic crunchers comes from Stephen Hawking, it’s worth taking notice. In a paper posted online, the physicist, based at the University of Cambridge, UK, and one of the creators of modern black-hole theory, does away with the notion of an event horizon, the invisible boundary thought to shroud every black hole, beyond which nothing, not even light, can escape.

In its stead, Hawking’s radical proposal is a much more benign “apparent horizon”, which only temporarily holds matter and energy prisoner before eventually releasing them, albeit in a more garbled form.

“There is no escape from a black hole in classical theory,” Hawking told Nature. Quantum theory, however, “enables energy and information to escape from a black hole”. A full explanation of the process, the physicist admits, would require a theory that successfully merges gravity with the other fundamental forces of nature. But that is a goal that has eluded physicists for nearly a century. “The correct treatment,” Hawking says, “remains a mystery.”

Hawking posted his paper on the arXiv preprint server on 22 January1. He titled it, whimsically, 'Information preservation and weather forecasting for black holes', and it has yet to pass peer review. The paper was based on a talk he gave via Skype at a meeting at the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics in Santa Barbara, California, in August 2013 (watch video of the talk).

Fire fighting

Hawking's new work is an attempt to solve what is known as the black-hole firewall paradox, which has been vexing physicists for almost two years, after it was discovered by theoretical physicist Joseph Polchinski of the Kavli Institute and his colleagues (see 'Astrophysics: Fire in the hole!').

In a thought experiment, the researchers asked what would happen to an astronaut unlucky enough to fall into a black hole. Event horizons are mathematically simple consequences of Einstein's general theory of relativity that were first pointed out by the German astronomer Karl Schwarzschild in a letter he wrote to Einstein in late 1915, less than a month after the publication of the theory. In that picture, physicists had long assumed, the astronaut would happily pass through the event horizon, unaware of his or her impending doom, before gradually being pulled inwards — stretched out along the way, like spaghetti — and eventually crushed at the 'singularity', the black hole’s hypothetical infinitely dense core.

But on analysing the situation in detail, Polchinski’s team came to the startling realization that the laws of quantum mechanics, which govern particles on small scales, change the situation completely. Quantum theory, they said, dictates that the event horizon must actually be transformed into a highly energetic region, or 'firewall', that would burn the astronaut to a crisp.

This was alarming because, although the firewall obeyed quantum rules, it flouted Einstein’s general theory of relativity. According to that theory, someone in free fall should perceive the laws of physics as being identical everywhere in the Universe — whether they are falling into a black hole or floating in empty intergalactic space. As far as Einstein is concerned, the event horizon should be an unremarkable place.

Beyond the horizon

Now Hawking proposes a third, tantalizingly simple, option. Quantum mechanics and general relativity remain intact, but black holes simply do not have an event horizon to catch fire. The key to his claim is that quantum effects around the black hole cause space-time to fluctuate too wildly for a sharp boundary surface to exist.

In place of the event horizon, Hawking invokes an “apparent horizon”, a surface along which light rays attempting to rush away from the black hole’s core will be suspended. In general relativity, for an unchanging black hole, these two horizons are identical, because light trying to escape from inside a black hole can reach only as far as the event horizon and will be held there, as though stuck on a treadmill. However, the two horizons can, in principle, be distinguished. If more matter gets swallowed by the black hole, its event horizon will swell and grow larger than the apparent horizon.

Conversely, in the 1970s, Hawking also showed that black holes can slowly shrink, spewing out 'Hawking radiation'. In that case, the event horizon would, in theory, become smaller than the apparent horizon. Hawking’s new suggestion is that the apparent horizon is the real boundary. “The absence of event horizons means that there are no black holes — in the sense of regimes from which light can't escape to infinity,” Hawking writes.

“The picture Hawking gives sounds reasonable,” says Don Page, a physicist and expert on black holes at the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada, who collaborated with Hawking in the 1970s. “You could say that it is radical to propose there’s no event horizon. But these are highly quantum conditions, and there’s ambiguity about what space-time even is, let alone whether there is a definite region that can be marked as an event horizon.”

Although Page accepts Hawking’s proposal that a black hole could exist without an event horizon, he questions whether that alone is enough to get past the firewall paradox. The presence of even an ephemeral apparent horizon, he cautions, could well cause the same problems as does an event horizon.

Unlike the event horizon, the apparent horizon can eventually dissolve. Page notes that Hawking is opening the door to a scenario so extreme “that anything in principle can get out of a black hole”. Although Hawking does not specify in his paper exactly how an apparent horizon would disappear, Page speculates that when it has shrunk to a certain size, at which the effects of both quantum mechanics and gravity combine, it is plausible that it could vanish. At that point, whatever was once trapped within the black hole would be released (although not in good shape).

If Hawking is correct, there could even be no singularity at the core of the black hole. Instead, matter would be only temporarily held behind the apparent horizon, which would gradually move inward owing to the pull of the black hole, but would never quite crunch down to the centre. Information about this matter would not destroyed, but would be highly scrambled so that, as it is released through Hawking radiation, it would be in a vastly different form, making it almost impossible to work out what the swallowed objects once were.

“It would be worse than trying to reconstruct a book that you burned from its ashes,” says Page. In his paper, Hawking compares it to trying to forecast the weather ahead of time: in theory it is possible, but in practice it is too difficult to do with much accuracy.

Polchinski, however, is sceptical that black holes without an event horizon could exist in nature. The kind of violent fluctuations needed to erase it are too rare in the Universe, he says. “In Einstein’s gravity, the black-hole horizon is not so different from any other part of space,” says Polchinski. “We never see space-time fluctuate in our own neighbourhood: it is just too rare on large scales.”

Raphael Bousso, a theoretical physicist at the University of California, Berkeley, and a former student of Hawking's, says that this latest contribution highlights how “abhorrent” physicists find the potential existence of firewalls. However, he is also cautious about Hawking’s solution. “The idea that there are no points from which you cannot escape a black hole is in some ways an even more radical and problematic suggestion than the existence of firewalls,” he says. "But the fact that we’re still discussing such questions 40 years after Hawking’s first papers on black holes and information is testament to their enormous significance."

Hal-9000
01-27-2014, 02:59 PM
:shock:

"...in the sense of regimes from which light can't escape to infinity,” Hawking writes"

Matter has to go somewhere or change, so I agree with Stephen :thumbsup:

Goofy
01-27-2014, 06:36 PM
Yeah, i was thinking exactly the same as Mister Hawking :thumbsup:























:theyareontome:

Muddy
01-27-2014, 07:59 PM
Lots of words.. Imma pretend I agree and *nod* slowly..

Hal-9000
01-27-2014, 08:06 PM
just theory on what happens to objects going into a black hole

1st thought - the object would get crushed because of the dense gravity within
2nd thought - the object would burst into flame
3rd thought - object would go into, but there's no singularity at the 'base' of the hole to crush objects or burst into flame....it would stay, then be converted to something else and 'ejected', but we wouldn't be able to tell what the original object was because the composition would be changed so drastically

Muddy
01-27-2014, 08:07 PM
*This has been an episode of 'deep thoughts with Jack Handy'*

Hal-9000
01-27-2014, 08:08 PM
they also bounce in between quantum theory and the theory of relativity

the latest thought from Hawkins includes a little of both

Hal-9000
01-27-2014, 08:10 PM
if a black hole is essentially a gravity well, drawing all objects within....even light....that simply means there is no good end to traveling in one and if you're near....GTFO NOW!!!! :lol:

DemonGeminiX
01-27-2014, 08:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8V0r_sK2fw

Hal-9000
01-27-2014, 08:26 PM
watch....they'll finally send a probe into a black hole, it will appear to vanish/get crushed/whatever...and then it will appear in front of the black hole again, aged by 150 years :lol:

Acid Trip
01-27-2014, 10:44 PM
No black holes eh? I do believe that's racist.

Muddy
01-27-2014, 10:48 PM
No black holes eh? I do believe that's racist.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efiW2K8gASM

Hal-9000
01-27-2014, 10:54 PM
I need to raise the fur on the back of FBD's neck ...:lol:

All of this is complete speculation since no one has ever got close enough to a black hole to collect relevant data. So through observation only of the entities around these so called black holes, they postulate theory on what would happen if a vehicle or person got close... you have to know that they're literally looking through telescopes at phenomenon that are billions of miles away and saying - Yep, lots of gravity and UR fooked if you get close :lol:

Black holes could be birthplaces of stars...like reverse wells...they don't really know :)

Griffin
01-28-2014, 12:46 AM
We are all just a science project living in an ant farm on gods desk. He has gone to summer camp and forgotten that we exist.

...boy is his mom going to be pissed when she comes in to prep his room for homecoming and finds out we have broken out of our terrarium.

Muddy
01-28-2014, 01:50 AM
My hole is black if you look deep inside its vortex...

deebakes
01-28-2014, 02:22 AM
:drool:

Muddy
01-28-2014, 02:32 AM
:squeezepush:

deebakes
01-28-2014, 02:59 AM
*boingflip*

:sad2:

Muddy
01-28-2014, 03:00 AM
*boingflip*

:sad2:

:empathy:

Godfather
01-28-2014, 03:40 AM
Hes not exactly saying black holes don't exist. Hes saying he now believes that the event horizons which characterize their appearances don't exist or fluctuate depending on changes inside the black hole. If he's right, black holes may let matter escape as radiation instead of being trapped forever. Also this paper has not yet been peer reviewed, and he's in his 70's with declining health. I know he's a superstar but it's still worth taking lightly until some other 'beautiful mind' types have a look.

Hal-9000
01-28-2014, 05:08 AM
That's the reason I love Hawking...he proposes a theory that stands up to scrutiny for 20 years, then recants his hypothesis and says - I could have been wrong :lol: (not this recent development, the 2nd theory)

MrsM
01-28-2014, 03:30 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/kak65z.png

Acid Trip
01-28-2014, 04:16 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/kak65z.png

:bwaha:

FBD
01-28-2014, 10:18 PM
I need to raise the fur on the back of FBD's neck ...:lol:

All of this is complete speculation since no one has ever got close enough to a black hole to collect relevant data. So through observation only of the entities around these so called black holes, they postulate theory on what would happen if a vehicle or person got close... you have to know that they're literally looking through telescopes at phenomenon that are billions of miles away and saying - Yep, lots of gravity and UR fooked if you get close :lol:

Black holes could be birthplaces of stars...like reverse wells...they don't really know :)we havent personally, but when you've taken pictures of stars getting ripped apart by invisible objects, or observe light getting bent by its direction past another massive body, or the perilhelion procession of mercury, correctly predicted by GR equations well before it was observed...you can make enough educated guesses.

I dont understand why they make this distinction between "firewall" or not. "Supposedly" one would feel nothing as one crossed the event horizon - REALLY?? I think that is absolutely asinine if you consider just what the event horizon is. E=mc^2 (is just rest mass, but you guys dont need to see the other form) ....the event horizon is where escape velocity = speed of light. since the equations of this produce an asymptote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote) at c, just what is happening to a person well before he even gets close to the EH?

if we try to accelerate something to the speed of light, you wind up using an exponential, "infinite" amount of energy trying to "push something past that barrier."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Lorentz_factor.svg/591px-Lorentz_factor.svg.png

so if something is close to that black hole, it is going to have quite an accelerated time.

if all of the particles that make up your body get accelerated to 95% of c, any idea how much extra mass you're going to have due to that accelerated frame of reference? how about .98c? eventually...there will be too much energy for the physical body to keep its structure, eventually too much energy for chemical bonds to maintain cohesiveness...eventually too much for the orbital (electron) energy...this is all before you hit the event horizon. (granted it could still be damned close, but...if the math's right...then the net result is a freeing of the rest mass energy and a resultant conversion, whether it adds to the gravity well of the black hole or is able to make some other transition, who knows - and there's nothing to say that a black hole could "crush your consciousness"...so, what now is this conglomeration of particles you find yourself controlling?)

that said, I think any notion of "an observer would feel nothing special" is complete malarkey. an observer would be dead before getting to the horizon, period, if the horizon was where you were headed. all of your rest mass is basically gone at c, it all becomes energy the further up that asymptote you go.

whether there is a wall of quantum fluctuations or what not, we definitely dont have enough info. I think most of the terminological differences are minor and petty, because reading hawking's words it was as if he said something different but not really much all that different at all.




here is where it might be useful:

http://www.davidyerle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/penrose_Schwpar.gif

normal infalling matter follows the blue line. but if you want to hit that parallel universe that the equations say is there, you basically have to "shoot the moon" right through the center of the X, which would take an amazingly precise shot-approach. if your craft and body could withstand that, of course. but if you "go into" the black hole you're fooked.