Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham: Is creation a viable model of origins in today’s modern, scientific era?

[PorkChopSandwiches]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z6kgvhG3AkI

[PorkChopSandwiches]

:lol: The Ken Ham guys biggest argument is "you werent there, you dont know" :lol:

[DemonGeminiX]

2 hours, 45 minutes, and 33 seconds

You really believe people are going to sit down and watch this?

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Maybe, I had it running in the background at work. I had to hear the creationists side. Hoping they had something remotely viable. It's obvious they picked the wrong guy for the argument.

[Muddy]

Im 55 minutes in and at his point id like to ask Dr Ham.. " What historical evidence do you offer up to defend your views on creationism"? Now, back to the show...

[Hugh_Janus]

the bible.... next question

[Muddy]

Ok, im at an hour and 29 and i need a break.. Honestly.. I dont think anything bill nye will say will ever change the way a creationist thinks.. Creationists are just taught at a certain level to just blindly accept. Have faith.

[Griffin]

I guess I'm the exception then.
I was not force fed any doctrine in my youth and went to church in my teens by choice.
My adult years have been spent without any organized religion influencing my ideology.
So I feel that my belief that all of this is here by design as opposed to a chance joining of random proteins is hardly blind.

[Muddy]

So you are a creationist grif?

[deebakes]

http://i.imgur.com/SwB2g7q.png

[Griffin]

So you are a creationist grif?

There is no indisputable proof to either side, both argue speculative proof.
My personal belief is that there was a definite thought process behind the "creation" of our being here.

[deebakes]

:shock:

[Muddy]

There is no indisputable proof to either side, both argue speculative proof.
My personal belief is that there was a definite thought process behind the "creation" of our being here.

So thats a yes. Thats cool, everyone is entitled to think what they want..

[Hal-9000]

I guess I'm the exception then.
I was not force fed any doctrine in my youth and went to church in my teens by choice.
My adult years have been spent without any organized religion influencing my ideology.
So I feel that my belief that all of this is here by design as opposed to a chance joining of random proteins is hardly blind.

I was not force fed any doctrine in my youth
Most of my adult years I was an atheist, always trying to disprove the existence of God
I found Christianity/my spirituality at a time I definitely did not want it or welcome it

Similar to Griff...I believe in evolution, yet I don't believe that a random event created every object in the universe including man. Something can not come from nothing in simplified terms of physics, (matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed) so the question remains - Where did the particles that formed our universe originate? Or to dumb it down further - The Big Bang was a true event in history according to science, where did the components come from to start the process? They blinked into existence on their own? Now you're talking about God like things....



http://i.imgur.com/SXB20Q4.png

[Hal-9000]

To further the debate, let's look at the Bible. It's a collection of stories and parables, for argument's sake written over 2000 years ago. It contains first hand observations of a guy who came long during a time of pagan beliefs. Multiple gods for varying circumstances (Roman beliefs primarily).

So this dude starts stretching his mouth about one true God and knows that even speaking against the current belief system is considered dire heresy, and people doing that will likely be rewarded with a free tanning package for a few days, while nailed to a cross. (read - death).

So what was his motivation? Money? Adulation of the masses? He knew that he would gain neither. What was his proof of the existence of one God? At the time, only his words and actions that he committed that were witnessed by others could validate his beliefs.

These others...reporters if you will, risked the same danger even agreeing with these new found beliefs. So what inspired the witnesses to go on record and agree with Jesus and spread the word? We have to imagine that people of the time were similar to us. They didn't welcome death and it must have been easier to agree with the beliefs of the time, rather than eschew that entire belief system and support another new set of beliefs. They could have met at a secret club and kept their opinions to themselves, but they did not.

Did Jesus heal the sick and the lame, did he walk on water, did he turn water into wine? Did he escape entombment after death? We'll never know, but the witnesses (with the risk of grievous bodily harm) seemed to think the man was the real deal. What inspired them to support this man? Was it a tiny cult comprised of small minded people following a charismatic man blindly?

Or was it something based in absolute truth that's lasted almost 3000 years, with the handbook still intact? The rational pragmatic part of me says - If if was a cult of idiots a la Waco or Jonestown, the beliefs certainly would not have lasted thousands of years.

I've mentioned this before. The Bible is composed of multiple accounts relayed by multiple people, and passed down orally first, before being committed to paper. Is a parable a true retelling of an event, or is it symbolic in nature, instructing the reader to live a certain way based on the story told?

5 people can read a chapter of the Bible and come away with 5 different interpretations. Example would be ' eye for an eye '. Most people think the terms means if someone fucks you over, you should return the favor. The actual phrasing is a little different...more the form of a question asking the reader - If someone screws you hard, should you really retaliate or let the universe take care of things.


The Bible is contradictory and imperfect. How dare I say this being a Christian? Because man wrote it. It wasn't magically created by God or Jesus. The word of God is within, but He didn't write the copy and run the printing press, or do any editorial work. I think that's important to remember when arguing about the validity of the text and how it relates to our lives.

[KevinD]

Couldn't have said it better. Thanks Hal

[Hal-9000]

http://i.imgur.com/6v9BTfa.png


Ham is an idiot... I believe Mr Nye did say this..

[Griffin]

Most world religions regardless of planet orientation or culture have a few common factors, mankind populated the planet about 20,000 years ago and every concentrated center had a messiah.
Since these "centers" are the only documented histories we have, I have a hard time believing in the carl saganist of today saying " billions and billions of years ago"!

[deebakes]

http://i.imgur.com/SwB2g7q.png


http://i.imgur.com/6v9BTfa.png


Ham is an idiot... I believe Mr Nye did say this..

:porky:

[deebakes]

http://i60.tinypic.com/20sd0s3.jpg

[PorkChopSandwiches]

:lol:

Hal, you weren't there. You don't know ;)

[Muddy]

The Bible is contradictory and imperfect. How dare I say this being a Christian? Because man wrote it. It wasn't magically created by God or Jesus. The word of God is within, but He didn't write the copy and run the printing press, or do any editorial work. I think that's important to remember when arguing about the validity of the text and how it relates to our lives.


People take that thing so friggin literally.. I cant tell you how many times I've heard "Because the bible says so". That closed mindedness is so frustrating to me.

[Acid Trip]

I'm still waiting for a "Big Bang" scientist to answer this one simple question (that Hal eluded to earlier).

Where did the infinitely dense ball of matter come from that you (Big Bang theorist) say exploded and created our Universe?

[Hugh_Janus]

more to the point.... what did it expand in to? :-k

[PorkChopSandwiches]

I'm still waiting for a "Big Bang" scientist to answer this one simple question (that Hal eluded to earlier).

Where did the infinitely dense ball of matter come from that you (Big Bang theorist) say exploded and created our Universe?

Im sure they will figure it out at some point, not knowing doesn't mean it must be supernatural

With that logic, where did god come from

[Hal-9000]

:lol:

Hal, you weren't there. You don't know ;)


:x oh there you go clouding the debate with logic and facts and shit





I won't argue with you if you're going to keep pulling that shit man :lol:

[Hal-9000]

Im sure they will figure it out at some point, not knowing doesn't mean it must be supernatural

With that logic, where did god come from


Durrr, a scientist obviously created Him




:dance:

[Hal-9000]

:lol:

Hal, you weren't there. You don't know ;)


seriously...I never once claimed that I did know. I postulated questions based on historical fact.



I did however know that you would respond in some form or another :tup:

[Muddy]

Im not religious.. Mainly because of the mysticism. But i will say this one thing about Christianity. It's members are free willing and not forced to be participants. Thats why I respect it. (That and mostly they are accepting and dont preach intolerance). Do they want you to change and not be what they deem sinful? Yes. Do they hold a gun to your head? No.

Try that with Islam.

[Hal-9000]

eat me Porky here's your damn proof


http://i.imgur.com/OcJEaci.png

[PorkChopSandwiches]

seriously...I never once claimed that I did know. I postulated questions based on historical fact.



I did however know that you would respond in some form or another :tup:

My comment was pure sarcasm based on the argument in the video, I was just trying to be funny.

[Hal-9000]

Im not religious.. Mainly because of the mysticism. But i will say this one thing about Christianity. It's members are free willing and not forced to be participants. Thats why I respect it. (That and mostly they are accepting and dont preach intolerance). Do they want you to change and not be what they deem sinful? Yes. Do they hold a gun to your head? No.

Try that with Islam.

I get questioned all the time about my faith...but hal you swear, but hal you smoke dope, but hal you don't seem the type...

I only know this. The faith I follow is steeped in science and common sense. It also preaches tolerance and trying to improve what you perceive to be weaknesses within yourself.

Am I a better person than I was 12 years ago because of this. Yes.
Am I trying to achieve perfection? No, I leave that for my higher power.

I don't pick and choose what I like from Christian doctrines..I commit to helping people and chastise myself for my shortcomings. Example - I don't turn the other cheek very well. If someone angers me or hurts me, I tell them and if they don't respond in what I think is a fitting way, I hurt them back :oops:


Sorry Muddster for the rant but you mentioned a very key part of what I consider true Christianity. It is of free will and no one ' forces it down people's throats '. I hate hearing that. If someone is asking you if you've heard the word of Christ, that's hardly forcing it down your throat. You're perfectly capable of saying - No and I don't want to.....

If the person persists or won't leave you alone, they're probably Westboro Baptists and you then have the option of punching them in the throat.

Every Christian I've met (and I've met a buttload...), have never harassed a stranger on the street or randomly showed up at their home. True Homies don't play that shit. Like my minister says - All are welcome in this house, any denomination or belief. We will not impose our will in someone else's house.


fuckshitpiss...end/rant

[Hal-9000]

My comment was pure sarcasm based on the argument in the video, I was just trying to be funny.


I gots that you bitch....now watch the fucking movie and prepare to have your mind changed by the little boy's story :x

[Muddy]

Hal, why do you apologize? Read what i said again please sir.. :lol:


It's members are free willing and not forced to be participants.

[Hal-9000]

I was agreeing whole heartedly because your post inspired a thought...


unfortunately my thoughts are sometimes 54 paragraphs long and the apology was to you...because you have the attention span of a gnat when faced with a wall of words



:lol:








nice quote work btw :lol:

[Hal-9000]

I should have worked the punctuation differently Mudd


"Sorry Muddster for the rant............ but you mentioned a very key part of what I consider true Christianity

[Muddy]

I was agreeing whole heartedly because your post inspired a thought...


unfortunately my thoughts are sometimes 54 paragraphs long and the apology was to you...because you have the attention span of a gnat when faced with a wall of words



:lol:








nice quote work btw :lol:

Excellent. :lol:

[PorkChopSandwiches]

You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.

[Hal-9000]

I am the left hand of God and through His will, I will kick your everloving pansy ass from here to fucking Kingdom Come




welcome to the church of hal, where I shall smite the sins out of your corporal body and in the very least, most of your teeth if you piss me off :x








:) Imma be an awesome pastor

[Muddy]

You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.

What is that line from, Heathen?

[PorkChopSandwiches]

What is that line from, Heathen?

Deuteronomy 14:1

[Muddy]

Deuteronomy 14:1

:hand: I haven't given the Jews my blessing yet.. Im not sure they don't want me dead either..

[Teh One Who Knocks]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee!

[Hal-9000]

preach it to the rafters brother Lance! :dance:

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Say what again mutha fucka

[Acid Trip]

I've actually read that book. It was a very interesting.

[FBD]

I was not force fed any doctrine in my youth
Most of my adult years I was an atheist, always trying to disprove the existence of God
I found Christianity/my spirituality at a time I definitely did not want it or welcome it

Similar to Griff...I believe in evolution, yet I don't believe that a random event created every object in the universe including man. Something can not come from nothing in simplified terms of physics, (matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed) so the question remains - Where did the particles that formed our universe originate? Or to dumb it down further - The Big Bang was a true event in history according to science, where did the components come from to start the process? They blinked into existence on their own? Now you're talking about God like things....

and what is matter, energy
what is the nature of energy?
transformation
the energy potential does not disappear
you can create matter from energy
just the right spark, out of quantum foam "nothingness"
the "void" is not "empty"
quantum mechanics is god's way of saying "hell yeah I play dice, motherfucker!" because something can indeed appear to arise from nothing - but the main point is, there was no energetic potential created that did not already exist, so there is no "creating something from nothing."
at GUT level energies from planck time until x10^-20ish, the energy level of the "universe" was beyond the coefficient of friction - the whole "inflaton" field idea that smooths everything in its wake to such an extent that the first evidence of cosmic microwave background everything was smooth to a preposterously fine level....giving the relative appearance of there having been "nothing" beforehand.
refer to the different concepts of "timelike" which is our normal path through spacetime, vs "spacelike" where speed is beyond time.

evolution and creation are two sides of the same coin. everything flows forth from fundamentals. creationists say god designed the fundamentals and everything else is merely these vectored potentials experiencing paths that are set out by the rules of the construct.

[Hugh_Janus]

Im not religious.. Mainly because of the mysticism. But i will say this one thing about Christianity. It's members are free willing and not forced to be participants. Thats why I respect it. (That and mostly they are accepting and dont preach intolerance). Do they want you to change and not be what they deem sinful? Yes. Do they hold a gun to your head? No.

Try that with Islam.

its not always like that. Unfortunately, the vast majority of islamic states seem to be stuck in the dark ages