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View Full Version : Judge deals blow to Ohio village's use of speeding traffic cameras



Teh One Who Knocks
02-26-2014, 11:57 AM
The Associated Press


http://i.imgur.com/ScObVDt.jpg

HAMILTON, Ohio – A judge Tuesday ordered a southwest Ohio village to stop using speeding cameras and said they're being used to violate motorists' rights to due process, in the latest ruling against automatic traffic enforcement around the state.

Butler County Common Pleas Judge Michael J. Sage also approved class action status, meaning thousands of drivers potentially could seek refunds from the village of New Miami.

It was estimated in court Tuesday that more than $1 million has been collected from more than 10,000 drivers, although some may have been ticketed multiple times. An attorney for the village said an appeal was likely. The village had contended it had the right under state law to use the cameras to ticket motorists, with a compelling interest for safety.

Questioning attorneys during more than two hours of legal arguments, Sage wondered aloud whether the speed camera system in the village, along a busy highway just outside this county seat city, was like taxing people for driving through. The cameras have been used for more than a year in the village of some 2,200 residents; the lawsuit charged that the system bypassed courts and made it difficult for motorists to challenge the $95 citations.

"The court has great concerns about due process in this case," Sage said, questioning the system's fairness. "This is a fundamental value in our system."

Motorists can challenge citations, but in an administrative system the judge said favors the village and police, which he said have "a vested interest" in collecting the revenues. Sage said he could reconsider his ruling if New Miami changed the speeding cameras system to allow motorists to challenge tickets in court.

Attorney Wil Weisenfelder said afterward he would confer with village officials about their plans. He had told the judge in court that more than half of the motorists who did challenge their tickets in the current system had them dismissed.

The village's attorneys wanted the judge to reject the claims or wait until the Ohio Supreme Court rules in a lawsuit pending before it challenging Toledo cameras. But attorney Josh Engel argued for the motorists that waiting on that case, which likely will take months more, would unfairly continue to subject people to an unconstitutional system in the meantime.

The New Miami lawsuit was filed last year in the aftermath of a ruling against speed camera use in neighboring Hamilton County. There, Judge Robert Ruehlman ordered a similarly sized village, Elmwood Place, to stop using cameras, calling them a scam against motorists. He also has ordered refunds of fines and fees, but pending an appellate court's ruling on his grant of class action.

Camera enforcement has been spreading nationally. Supporters say cameras stretch police resources and make communities safer. Opponents charge that they are revenue-raisers that violate constitutional rights.

Some Ohio legislators want to ban or restrict traffic cameras statewide, while legal challenges in at least five municipalities have been working their ways through courts, with recent appellate rulings against Cleveland and Toledo traffic cameras. The Ohio Supreme Court has previously upheld camera use in the city of Akron.

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 07:46 PM
:-k

If the tech to measure speed is the same as a hand-held gun an officer uses, what's the difference?


I hate photo-tickets but I've also asked to see my speed on a cop's gun and he said quickly - It's been cleared, you don't need to see that.

Hugh_Janus
02-26-2014, 07:51 PM
if you don't break the law, you won't get a ticket.... simple really :shrug:

Pony
02-26-2014, 08:16 PM
:-k

If the tech to measure speed is the same as a hand-held gun an officer uses, what's the difference?


I hate photo-tickets but I've also asked to see my speed on a cop's gun and he said quickly - It's been cleared, you don't need to see that.

A lot of it boils down to having the right to face your accuser in court. But there's also some cameras being run by third party companies and the fact that it's a huge pain and immensely expensive to even get a court date if you want to fight the ticket. Basically even if you weren't driving your car or someone stole your plates or if there was any other reason you are not guilty the system is set up to get people to not fight and just pay. Guilty until proven innocent.

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 08:19 PM
A lot of it boils down to having the right to face your accuser in court. But there's also some cameras being run by third party companies and the fact that it's a huge pain and immensely expensive to even get a court date if you want to fight the ticket. Basically even if you weren't driving your car or someone stole your plates or if there was any other reason you are not guilty the system is set up to get people to not fight and just pay. Guilty until proven innocent.

that's how I often feel when I question the cop giving me a speeding ticket...they tell me to be quiet and there's the address on the back of the ticket if you want to fight it...









not that I speed very much 8-[

Pony
02-26-2014, 08:22 PM
that's how I often feel when I question the cop giving me a speeding ticket...they tell me to be quiet and there's the address on the back of the ticket if you want to fight it...

not that I speed very much 8-[

Pretty much. But here if you plead not guilty you get a trial where the officer is required to appear. Many cops don't bother. If he doesn't show it's thrown out.

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 08:26 PM
Pretty much. But here if you plead not guilty you get a trial where the officer is required to appear. Many cops don't bother. If he doesn't show it's thrown out.

same up here for cops appearing in court


I was at the cop station getting a work thing done and asked to see one of my photo radar pics....it was clear as day, you could see me smoking with my right hand and long hair blowing in the breeze....

so I make an obvious joke and say - What if that was my Mom in the picture driving my car, who pays? The cop gets all antsy and pissed off telling me that I'm the registered owner and have to pay no matter what. blah blah blah, foam, spittle...

It started as a joke because it was obviously me in the picture, but then her attitude made me want to press the issue further :lol:

PorkChopSandwiches
02-26-2014, 08:27 PM
Multiple times these 3rd party companies have been found guilty of generating false tickets since they get a commission for everyone they issue.

And again with this Canadian so ready to hand over any freedom to the government for a shake down :dance:

Pony
02-26-2014, 08:33 PM
telling me that I'm the registered owner and have to pay no matter what.

Pretty sure that's not the case here, if you can prove you were not the driver you cannot be guilty. Doesn't stop them from tracking down who was driving your car and ticketing them though.

Pony
02-26-2014, 08:36 PM
Multiple times these 3rd party companies have been found guilty of generating false tickets since they get a commission for everyone they issue.

And again with this Canadian so ready to hand over any freedom to the government for a shake down :dance:

False tickets, shortening the cycle on red light cameras, changing the settings on how far over the speed limit before the camera gets you....
.... it would be real shady to set that camera to bust you at 35.8MPH in a 35 zone.

Noilly Pratt
02-26-2014, 08:46 PM
They used to do photo-radar using vans here, but they phased that out when they considered the costs involved (multiple vans, equipment came from Europe, and the police genuinely hating the duty) Because it was hated, it became an election promise to eliminate them. A few million down the drain...

Damned near bought one of those vans at a Government auction. All had low miles but most had dead batteries(!)

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 08:46 PM
Multiple times these 3rd party companies have been found guilty of generating false tickets since they get a commission for everyone they issue.

And again with this Canadian so ready to hand over any freedom to the government for a shake down :dance:


:lol: you don't know me very well....

a question about policy is not an agreement about this issue at hand :nono:

my point is simple - if a cop hands you a ticket and the end result is the same (not being able to even look at the gun with your alleged speed reading), as a photo ticket....it all falls out exactly the same way. You have to appear in court at your time and expense.

I got a handful of photo radar tickets within a short period of time (5 in 2 months), all occurring at the same place, with me magically doing the same speed (69 kms in a 50 zone)

I went down to the cop station and demanded to see the officers in charge of the process, displayed all 5 tickets and told them I had my speedometer calibrated. I actually had my friend follow me to determine a ballpark figure...

and the idiot in charge says - We have no control over the cameras....I interrupt him right there laughing maniacally and ask - How can I take the charge seriously if you can't control the technology that provides you with the information???


It went downhill from there and they agreed to 'excuse' 3 of my 5 tickets....which tells me much without admitting anything at all.

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 08:48 PM
Pretty sure that's not the case here, if you can prove you were not the driver you cannot be guilty. Doesn't stop them from tracking down who was driving your car and ticketing them though.

I was told point blank that if I own the vehicle, it's up to me to settle the finances if someone else was driving. Unless I could prove that the car was stolen.

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 08:50 PM
They used to do photo-radar using vans here, but they phased that out when they considered the costs involved (multiple vans, equipment came from Europe, and the police genuinely hating the duty) Because it was hated, it became an election promise to eliminate them. A few million down the drain...

Damned near bought one of those vans at a Government auction. All had low miles but most had dead batteries(!)

I find them dangerous at night because you see this bright flash in your rear view and it does distract for a few moments...








not that I speed at night or anything 8-[

PorkChopSandwiches
02-26-2014, 08:52 PM
I was told point blank that if I own the vehicle, it's up to me to settle the finances if someone else was driving. Unless I could prove that the car was stolen.

Thats the same in my experience, the mentality is the car is registered to you, so unless you want to tell us who was driving, then you get to keep the ticket.

Having a cop give you a ticket is one thing, speeding tickets are not about safety anyway, its a revenue stream. If they cant take the time to catch me themselves....fuck em

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 08:56 PM
One guy jumped out into the middle of the street yelling at me.....PULL OVER, NO SEAT BELT AND SPEEDING!!!! :x

after I nearly knocked him off the road he only wrote me the speeding ticket...never did find out why I didn't get the belt ticket


then I thought about it and I was pulling out from a parking lot, turned and that's where he said I was doing so much over the limit....my Grand Am can't do what he claimed I did :lol:




still....like the photo ticket, he provided no proof that I was speeding...in fact I've never seen a cop display a gun reading to a motorist after a stop....

Pony
02-26-2014, 10:16 PM
my point is simple - if a cop hands you a ticket and the end result is the same (not being able to even look at the gun with your alleged speed reading), as a photo ticket....it all falls out exactly the same way. You have to appear in court at your time and expense.


That's the problem right there. With a photo camera you get mailed the ticket and a envelope for the fine to mail in. No court date. If you don't mail it in they issue a warrant. It's very difficult and expensive to get a court date on a speed or red light camera. You might as well hire a lawyer and plan on missing multiple days of work. Even if you are innocent for whatever reason it will cost you 10x the fine just to have your day in court.

When an officer gives you a ticket your court date is set on the spot.

Hal-9000
02-26-2014, 11:21 PM
That's the problem right there. With a photo camera you get mailed the ticket and a envelope for the fine to mail in. No court date. If you don't mail it in they issue a warrant. It's very difficult and expensive to get a court date on a speed or red light camera. You might as well hire a lawyer and plan on missing multiple days of work. Even if you are innocent for whatever reason it will cost you 10x the fine just to have your day in court.

When an officer gives you a ticket your court date is set on the spot.


and thus the difference rears it's ugly head :thumbsup:


up here...and I could be wrong since it's been a while for me, I think we had a contingency on the back of the photo radar statement in case you wanted to dispute it.

FBD
02-27-2014, 12:33 AM
when anarchy breaks, those cameras are getting shot the fug out