Drug Use and Incarceration in the United States

[deebakes]

http://i59.tinypic.com/28sxca8.jpg

[PorkChopSandwiches]

http://i59.tinypic.com/28sxca8.jpg

Legalize drugs

[Muddy]

Legalize drugs

Some us us prefer the vampires not walk the streets in the daylight.

[RBP]

Legalize drugs

The overly-reported notion that our prisons are overpopulated because of drug possession charges is not only false, it's irresponsible.

[FBD]

are we talking federal or state prisons? for federal it is over half.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

The overly-reported notion that our prisons are overpopulated because of drug possession charges is not only false, it's irresponsible.

1. Did you look at the graph
2. Dont fucking worry about what people do on their own time, with their own body

[Pony]

2. Dont fucking worry about what people do on their own time, with their own body

I'd agree with that statement if we were specifically talking about "lighter" drugs like pot. Not so much with the "hardcore" drugs that cause those people to rob,steal and kill for their next fix.

[redred]

Not so much with the "hardcore" drugs that cause those people to rob,steal and kill for their next fix.

never done any of them :shrug:

[PorkChopSandwiches]

I'd agree with that statement if we were specifically talking about "lighter" drugs like pot. Not so much with the "hardcore" drugs that cause those people to rob,steal and kill for their next fix.

The people are doing them anyway, if they happen to commit other crimes, there are all ready laws for that. Putting people in jail for doing drugs helps nobody

[Muddy]

Some us us prefer the vampires not walk the streets in the daylight.

Porky, you didnt address my statement..

[FBD]

The people are doing them anyway, if they happen to commit other crimes, there are all ready laws for that. Putting people in jail for doing drugs helps nobody
but it helps keep the money moving in a for-profit prison

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Porky, you didnt address my statement..

They are all ready out there, the fact that they are illegal doesn't stop users from using. You think that since its illegal nobody is doing it?


but it helps keep the money moving in a for-profit prison

*dingdingdingding*

[Muddy]

They are all ready out there, the fact that they are illegal doesn't stop users from using. You think that since its illegal nobody is doing it?


No but I do think it's illegality keeps it somewhat hidden.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

I understand your point, but incarcerating addicts or recreational users is not the answer. You would have much better results at a lower cost with treatment centers.

There are plenty of people who use "hard drugs" like coke for example that have a family and a career only to have it all blown up over possession. So now you have this guy no longer working, no longer supporting his family and spending the next year in jail because he had some dope in his pocket. Ridiculous

[Muddy]

I understand your point, but incarcerating addicts or recreational users is not the answer. You would have much better results at a lower cost with treatment centers.

There are plenty of people who use "hard drugs" like coke for example that have a family and a career only to have it all blown up over possession. So now you have this guy no longer working, no longer supporting his family and spending the next year in jail because he had some dope in his pocket. Ridiculous

Treatment centers for one arent lower cost. Two, prison time for a possession is BS, I agree with that... But the outright legalization of hard drugs...? Ohhh no.. Im not sharing the world of the normal with a fucking junkie out there smacking it up in public...

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Always to the extreme, just like we have talked about with legal weed. It doesn't all the sudden mean you can start using in the park.

So decriminalize then, and only fuck with the distributors at the highest levels.

[Muddy]

Always to the extreme, just like we have talked about with legal weed. It doesn't all the sudden mean you can start using in the park.

So decriminalize then, and only fuck with the distributors at the highest levels.

Only because coke and meth and heroin are extreme, man...

[PorkChopSandwiches]

I agree, but changing the laws doesn't make people start shooting up in the streets.

[Muddy]

I agree, but changing the laws doesn't make people start shooting up in the streets.

Vampires, Bubba. Keep them in the shadows..

[RBP]

are we talking federal or state prisons? for federal it is over half.


1. Did you look at the graph
2. Dont fucking worry about what people do on their own time, with their own body


I'd agree with that statement if we were specifically talking about "lighter" drugs like pot. Not so much with the "hardcore" drugs that cause those people to rob,steal and kill for their next fix.


The people are doing them anyway, if they happen to commit other crimes, there are all ready laws for that. Putting people in jail for doing drugs helps nobody


but it helps keep the money moving in a for-profit prison


They are all ready out there, the fact that they are illegal doesn't stop users from using. You think that since its illegal nobody is doing it?



*dingdingdingding*


No but I do think it's illegality keeps it somewhat hidden.


I understand your point, but incarcerating addicts or recreational users is not the answer. You would have much better results at a lower cost with treatment centers.

There are plenty of people who use "hard drugs" like coke for example that have a family and a career only to have it all blown up over possession. So now you have this guy no longer working, no longer supporting his family and spending the next year in jail because he had some dope in his pocket. Ridiculous


This is EXACTLY my point. The myth lives on fueled by the media who wants you to believe that recreational users are going to prison. It's bullshit.

To address FBD, yes, half the Federal prisoners are in for drug charges. That is all international or interstate or conspiracy, NOT simple possession for person use, not to mention that the federal numbers are minimal compared to state prisons. At the state level, which houses 1.5 million of the 2 million total inmates, drug charges are around 15-17%. Possession charges are less than around 7%. That does not account for the plea bargains that allow dealers to agree to possession charges to avoid a trial or to give up the bigger fish.

It is completely ridiculous to perpetuate this notion that the prisons are bursting at the seams because people go to jail for smoking a joint. It is simply not true.

You have been sold a lie. I am frankly shocked that this group, who is usually cynical and mindful of the propaganda, actually buys this bullshit. And you know what's driving it don't you? Why we are being told these lies? It's completely racially motivated to excuse the astronomical incarcerations rates of non-whites versus whites. Don't buy that? Just watch an interview with, or read, Michelle Alexander's apologist piece, The New Jim Crow: Mass incarceration in an Age of Colorblindness.

I welcome the debate. Perhaps a separate thread is warranted.

[deebakes]

Perhaps a separate thread is warranted.

i didn't expect my random picture to spur so much debate :lol:

[Muddy]

:lol:do it mods! Lets see your powerrrrrrs!

[Teh One Who Knocks]

:lol:do it mods! Lets see your powerrrrrrs!

Done and stickied for now

[RBP]

Done and stickied for now

Thanks, Lance. :)

[FBD]

I understand what you're saying, RBP, but...

my point is more along the lines of this


While the United States represents about 5 percent of the world's population, it houses around 25 percent of the world's prisoners.

#policestate

and along the lines of #policestate,

"normal" people's lives get fucked up because of association and minor shit, and that's not something you can really put into a graph.

[Muddy]

Nice, Lance!

[deebakes]

:woot:

[perrhaps]

Interesting topic. here's my two cents worth on why drugs other than marijuana probably won't be decriminalized:
1.Think about all those well-armed gangbangers who make their $$$ by selling drugs. legalize drugs, and their income goes away. Think they're going to lay down their arms and eagerly find low-paying manual labor jobs? Or, think they'll take those semi-automatic guns and find new illegal ways to make money out in the suburbs?

2. The insurance companies lobbyists will be spreading lots and lots of green around to stop this from happening.

3. Despite their words to the contrary, do you really think police unions want a drug-free or a drug-decriminalized society, when either would result in massive layoffs for their members? Ditto the prison guard unions.

4. Similar result for judicial system employees. Won't happen, at least not in my lifetime.

5. Think about all the money spent in this country on police salaries and equipment; construction of prisons, etc. ,etc. Will we save money by not spending this, or will the savings be cancelled or even exceeded by the costs of unemployment and a concomitant reduction in consumer spending?

6. Outside of a few urban areas, where reverse racism rules the day, no politician ever gets elected by promising to go easy on those who are criminals under present law.

[FBD]

yep....basically the same reason they keep the speed limits low. (unchanged for the most part in the last 40 years outside of highways moving to omg 65mph or gasp 70...I mean I could see if cars had improved some over the years, maybe...oh wait a minute...)

and the over-militarization of local and state police forces....where do yall think THAT is coming from, because the states and localities dont pay for that shit. its all coming down from the fkn feds. and they want an over militarization of all police forces for...what reason, do ya think?

[Acid Trip]

That is all international or interstate or conspiracy, NOT simple possession for person use

I stopped reading there for one reason: If drugs were legal there would be no international/interstate/conspiracy charges because the basis behind those charges (illegal drugs) would be no longer be illegal.

So yes, you could technically shrink the prison population by almost half. Some of that half had more than just drug charges (murder, assault, etc) so they would get to stay and hang out.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Interesting topic. here's my two cents worth on why drugs other than marijuana probably won't be decriminalized:
1.Think about all those well-armed gangbangers who make their $$$ by selling drugs. legalize drugs, and their income goes away. Think they're going to lay down their arms and eagerly find low-paying manual labor jobs? Or, think they'll take those semi-automatic guns and find new illegal ways to make money out in the suburbs?

2. The insurance companies lobbyists will be spreading lots and lots of green around to stop this from happening.

3. Despite their words to the contrary, do you really think police unions want a drug-free or a drug-decriminalized society, when either would result in massive layoffs for their members? Ditto the prison guard unions.

4. Similar result for judicial system employees. Won't happen, at least not in my lifetime.

5. Think about all the money spent in this country on police salaries and equipment; construction of prisons, etc. ,etc. Will we save money by not spending this, or will the savings be cancelled or even exceeded by the costs of unemployment and a concomitant reduction in consumer spending?

6. Outside of a few urban areas, where reverse racism rules the day, no politician ever gets elected by promising to go easy on those who are criminals under present law.

Ultimately this is what the drug war is all about, we would be ending jobs funded by taxpayer money and we cant have that

[PorkChopSandwiches]

This is EXACTLY my point. The myth lives on fueled by the media who wants you to believe that recreational users are going to prison. It's bullshit.

To address FBD, yes, half the Federal prisoners are in for drug charges. That is all international or interstate or conspiracy, NOT simple possession for person use, not to mention that the federal numbers are minimal compared to state prisons. At the state level, which houses 1.5 million of the 2 million total inmates, drug charges are around 15-17%. Possession charges are less than around 7%. That does not account for the plea bargains that allow dealers to agree to possession charges to avoid a trial or to give up the bigger fish.

It is completely ridiculous to perpetuate this notion that the prisons are bursting at the seams because people go to jail for smoking a joint. It is simply not true.

You have been sold a lie. I am frankly shocked that this group, who is usually cynical and mindful of the propaganda, actually buys this bullshit. And you know what's driving it don't you? Why we are being told these lies? It's completely racially motivated to excuse the astronomical incarcerations rates of non-whites versus whites. Don't buy that? Just watch an interview with, or read, Michelle Alexander's apologist piece, The New Jim Crow: Mass incarceration in an Age of Colorblindness.

I welcome the debate. Perhaps a separate thread is warranted.

Im not even talking about weed, possession of a controlled substance meth/coke/ecstasy mushrooms, can get you 1 to 5 years in prison just for have any amount on you. Not to say that will happen to a first time offender, but the law says it can, and I'm sure plenty of people are in for possession.

Not everyone that uses drugs is a psychopath drug addict, there are plenty of contributing members of society that use drugs and putting them in jail for it is just ruining everyone's life involved and taxing the system. And in the end has little effect in changing the end users ways

[FBD]

I still think its more nefarious than that - its asset and financial stripmining, and TPTB know that if they hit the USA's standard of living too hard too fast they risk backlash from the people (if enough people wind up understanding what they are really facing) so its being done slowly via money printing, financialization, manipulation of precious metals, getting rid of competition ('08 consolidated a lot of resources in the hands of the big ~5 banks, saw the death of thousands of small banks)...this is all outflow from the purchasing of Congress back in 1913. Why do you think there are these entities that exist entirely outside the bounds of any national structures (UN, IMF, WTO, etc, etc, etc)...that wind up dictating very significant things in the financial world - with the again purchased explicit help of legislative bodies in many countries. Working towards one world government. No different than this farcical idea of a whole united europe "to compete on an even playing field" yet really all it is, is a mechanism to blow up currencies, the top .1%etc have it made far easier for them to amass more and more and more wealth, at the explicit emptying of plebes' pockets.

Why do you think I am so pro russia on the entire Ukraine thing? Because the Ukraine coup was another puppet government installed by the forces that "control the west"...just like the fake arab spring taking down any regional dictator that wanted their oil paid for in gold - both Saddam and Kaddafi were demanding just that, and pow, buh bye.

This is a fucking hydra we're dealing with. Things dont make sense because there's a thousand points of fuckery in all of it, and trying to make heads or tails over any of this is a relatively impossible game - but ya know what...one doesnt need to figure out 100% of the story to figure out one is getting fucked, big time.


...like I said in the getting teachers fired thread....I seriously hope I am totally wrong about all this shit. but it dont pass the smell test by a mile.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

The business of prison is a MAJOR problem, there should not be a for profit prison system PERIOD.

[FBD]

The business of prison is a MAJOR problem, there should not be a for profit prison system PERIOD.

+1000

[Muddy]

The business of prison is a MAJOR problem, there should not be a for profit prison system PERIOD.

We have a bunch of business prisons here in VA..

[Muddy]

I still think its more nefarious than that - its asset and financial stripmining, and TPTB know that if they hit the USA's standard of living too hard too fast they risk backlash from the people (if enough people wind up understanding what they are really facing) so its being done slowly via money printing, financialization, manipulation of precious metals, getting rid of competition ('08 consolidated a lot of resources in the hands of the big ~5 banks, saw the death of thousands of small banks)...this is all outflow from the purchasing of Congress back in 1913. Why do you think there are these entities that exist entirely outside the bounds of any national structures (UN, IMF, WTO, etc, etc, etc)...that wind up dictating very significant things in the financial world - with the again purchased explicit help of legislative bodies in many countries. Working towards one world government. No different than this farcical idea of a whole united europe "to compete on an even playing field" yet really all it is, is a mechanism to blow up currencies, the top .1%etc have it made far easier for them to amass more and more and more wealth, at the explicit emptying of plebes' pockets.

Why do you think I am so pro russia on the entire Ukraine thing? Because the Ukraine coup was another puppet government installed by the forces that "control the west"...just like the fake arab spring taking down any regional dictator that wanted their oil paid for in gold - both Saddam and Kaddafi were demanding just that, and pow, buh bye.

This is a fucking hydra we're dealing with. Things dont make sense because there's a thousand points of fuckery in all of it, and trying to make heads or tails over any of this is a relatively impossible game - but ya know what...one doesnt need to figure out 100% of the story to figure out one is getting fucked, big time.


...like I said in the getting teachers fired thread....I seriously hope I am totally wrong about all this shit. but it dont pass the smell test by a mile.

Very deep thoughts...

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Human rights organizations, as well as political and social ones, are condemning what they are calling a new form of inhumane exploitation in the United States, where they say a prison population of up to 2 million – mostly Black and Hispanic – are working for various industries for a pittance. For the tycoons who have invested in the prison industry, it has been like finding a pot of gold. They don’t have to worry about strikes or paying unemployment insurance, vacations or comp time. All of their workers are full-time, and never arrive late or are absent because of family problems; moreover, if they don’t like the pay of 25 cents an hour and refuse to work, they are locked up in isolation cells.

There are approximately 2 million inmates in state, federal and private prisons throughout the country. According to California Prison Focus, “no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens.” The figures show that the United States has locked up more people than any other country: a half million more than China, which has a population five times greater than the U.S. Statistics reveal that the United States holds 25% of the world’s prison population, but only 5% of the world’s people. From less than 300,000 inmates in 1972, the jail population grew to 2 million by the year 2000. In 1990 it was one million. Ten years ago there were only five private prisons in the country, with a population of 2,000 inmates; now, there are 100, with 62,000 inmates. It is expected that by the coming decade, the number will hit 360,000, according to reports.

What has happened over the last 10 years? Why are there so many prisoners?

“The private contracting of prisoners for work fosters incentives to lock people up. Prisons depend on this income. Corporate stockholders who make money off prisoners’ work lobby for longer sentences, in order to expand their workforce. The system feeds itself,” says a study by the Progressive Labor Party, which accuses the prison industry of being “an imitation of Nazi Germany with respect to forced slave labor and concentration camps.”

The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and its investors are on Wall Street. “This multimillion-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors.”

According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.

CRIME GOES DOWN, JAIL POPULATION GOES UP

According to reports by human rights organizations, these are the factors that increase the profit potential for those who invest in the prison industry complex:

. Jailing persons convicted of non-violent crimes, and long prison sentences for possession of microscopic quantities of illegal drugs. Federal law stipulates five years’ imprisonment without possibility of parole for possession of 5 grams of crack or 3.5 ounces of heroin, and 10 years for possession of less than 2 ounces of rock-cocaine or crack. A sentence of 5 years for cocaine powder requires possession of 500 grams – 100 times more than the quantity of rock cocaine for the same sentence. Most of those who use cocaine powder are white, middle-class or rich people, while mostly Blacks and Latinos use rock cocaine. In Texas, a person may be sentenced for up to two years’ imprisonment for possessing 4 ounces of marijuana. Here in New York, the 1973 Nelson Rockefeller anti-drug law provides for a mandatory prison sentence of 15 years to life for possession of 4 ounces of any illegal drug.

. The passage in 13 states of the “three strikes” laws (life in prison after being convicted of three felonies), made it necessary to build 20 new federal prisons. One of the most disturbing cases resulting from this measure was that of a prisoner who for stealing a car and two bicycles received three 25-year sentences.

. Longer sentences.

. The passage of laws that require minimum sentencing, without regard for circumstances.

. A large expansion of work by prisoners creating profits that motivate the incarceration of more people for longer periods of time.

. More punishment of prisoners, so as to lengthen their sentences.

HISTORY OF PRISON LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES

Prison labor has its roots in slavery. After the 1861-1865 Civil War, a system of “hiring out prisoners” was introduced in order to continue the slavery tradition. Freed slaves were charged with not carrying out their sharecropping commitments (cultivating someone else’s land in exchange for part of the harvest) or petty thievery – which were almost never proven – and were then “hired out” for cotton picking, working in mines and building railroads. From 1870 until 1910 in the state of Georgia, 88% of hired-out convicts were Black. In Alabama, 93% of “hired-out” miners were Black. In Mississippi, a huge prison farm similar to the old slave plantations replaced the system of hiring out convicts. The notorious Parchman plantation existed until 1972.

During the post-Civil War period, Jim Crow racial segregation laws were imposed on every state, with legal segregation in schools, housing, marriages and many other aspects of daily life. “Today, a new set of markedly racist laws is imposing slave labor and sweatshops on the criminal justice system, now known as the prison industry complex,” comments the Left Business Observer.

Who is investing? At least 37 states have legalized the contracting of prison labor by private corporations that mount their operations inside state prisons. The list of such companies contains the cream of U.S. corporate society: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom’s, Revlon, Macy’s, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. All of these businesses are excited about the economic boom generation by prison labor. Just between 1980 and 1994, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Inmates in state penitentiaries generally receive the minimum wage for their work, but not all; in Colorado, they get about $2 per hour, well under the minimum. And in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call “highly skilled positions.” At those rates, it is no surprise that inmates find the pay in federal prisons to be very generous. There, they can earn $1.25 an hour and work eight hours a day, and sometimes overtime. They can send home $200-$300 per month.

Thanks to prison labor, the United States is once again an attractive location for investment in work that was designed for Third World labor markets. A company that operated a maquiladora (assembly plant in Mexico near the border) closed down its operations there and relocated to San Quentin State Prison in California. In Texas, a factory fired its 150 workers and contracted the services of prisoner-workers from the private Lockhart Texas prison, where circuit boards are assembled for companies like IBM and Compaq.

[Former] Oregon State Representative Kevin Mannix recently urged Nike to cut its production in Indonesia and bring it to his state, telling the shoe manufacturer that “there won’t be any transportation costs; we’re offering you competitive prison labor (here).”

PRIVATE PRISONS

The prison privatization boom began in the 1980s, under the governments of Ronald Reagan and Bush Sr., but reached its height in 1990 under William Clinton, when Wall Street stocks were selling like hotcakes. Clinton’s program for cutting the federal workforce resulted in the Justice Departments contracting of private prison corporations for the incarceration of undocumented workers and high-security inmates.

Private prisons are the biggest business in the prison industry complex. About 18 corporations guard 10,000 prisoners in 27 states. The two largest are Correctional Corporation of America (CCA) and Wackenhut, which together control 75%. Private prisons receive a guaranteed amount of money for each prisoner, independent of what it costs to maintain each one. According to Russell Boraas, a private prison administrator in Virginia, “the secret to low operating costs is having a minimal number of guards for the maximum number of prisoners.” The CCA has an ultra-modern prison in Lawrenceville, Virginia, where five guards on dayshift and two at night watch over 750 prisoners. In these prisons, inmates may get their sentences reduced for “good behavior,” but for any infraction, they get 30 days added – which means more profits for CCA. According to a study of New Mexico prisons, it was found that CCA inmates lost “good behavior time” at a rate eight times higher than those in state prisons.

IMPORTING AND EXPORTING INMATES

Profits are so good that now there is a new business: importing inmates with long sentences, meaning the worst criminals. When a federal judge ruled that overcrowding in Texas prisons was cruel and unusual punishment, the CCA signed contracts with sheriffs in poor counties to build and run new jails and share the profits. According to a December 1998 Atlantic Monthly magazine article, this program was backed by investors from Merrill-Lynch, Shearson-Lehman, American Express and Allstate, and the operation was scattered all over rural Texas. That state’s governor, Ann Richards, followed the example of Mario Cuomo in New York and built so many state prisons that the market became flooded, cutting into private prison profits.

After a law signed by Clinton in 1996 – ending court supervision and decisions – caused overcrowding and violent, unsafe conditions in federal prisons, private prison corporations in Texas began to contact other states whose prisons were overcrowded, offering “rent-a-cell” services in the CCA prisons located in small towns in Texas. The commission for a rent-a-cell salesman is $2.50 to $5.50 per day per bed. The county gets $1.50 for each prisoner.

STATISTICS

Ninety-seven percent of 125,000 federal inmates have been convicted of non-violent crimes. It is believed that more than half of the 623,000 inmates in municipal or county jails are innocent of the crimes they are accused of. Of these, the majority are awaiting trial. Two-thirds of the one million state prisoners have committed non-violent offenses. Sixteen percent of the country’s 2 million prisoners suffer from mental illness.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

The business of prison is a MAJOR problem, there should not be a for profit prison system PERIOD.

Would it be better to keep them all black holes absorbing taxpayer dollars?

[Muddy]

They dont have as many lockups in China because China executes them without a trial! :lol:

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Would it be better to keep them all black holes absorbing taxpayer dollars?

I feel when you have a for profit prison that is traded on the stock market you will put more people in jail for longer periods since it directly affects your bottom line. I have no problem imprisoning "bad" people, people who cause harm to others that kind of thing. But, to jail people over acts that arent hurting anyone other than yourself is bullshit. (prostitution, drugs...etc)

[FBD]

Very deep thoughts...

its tough having to ask questions like why are "Bush's" continuation of government plans still in effect, we are still technically in a state of national emergency, the shit gets renewed like every 45 days, it effectively sets up a shadow government. and any congressional inquiries are met with "you dont have security clearance" and perchance they do, well, it goes onto Eric (Place)Holder's desk where it will sit indefinitely, unanswered.

any way I slice it, it looks bad for the plebes of the world...

[FBD]

Would it be better to keep them all black holes absorbing taxpayer dollars?
I know you'll see me rail about government spending oplenty...but jails are one thing that should absolutely be the state's responsibility. They dont have that many responsibilities defined for them....the vast majority of their efforts are all on things that they dont have any authority to do (SS, Obamacare, war without declaring, etc...) but...

As we've all seen, Profit and Justice are damn near antonyms in many cases. People will show time and again that profit means WAY more than justice.

[perrhaps]

Human rights organizations, as well as political and social ones, are condemning what they are calling a new form of inhumane exploitation in the United States, where they say a prison population of up to 2 million – mostly Black and Hispanic – are working for various industries for a pittance. For the tycoons who have invested in the prison industry, it has been like finding a pot of gold. They don’t have to worry about strikes or paying unemployment insurance, vacations or comp time. All of their workers are full-time, and never arrive late or are absent because of family problems; moreover, if they don’t like the pay of 25 cents an hour and refuse to work, they are locked up in isolation cells.

There are approximately 2 million inmates in state, federal and private prisons throughout the country. According to California Prison Focus, “no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens.” The figures show that the United States has locked up more people than any other country: a half million more than China, which has a population five times greater than the U.S. Statistics reveal that the United States holds 25% of the world’s prison population, but only 5% of the world’s people. From less than 300,000 inmates in 1972, the jail population grew to 2 million by the year 2000. In 1990 it was one million. Ten years ago there were only five private prisons in the country, with a population of 2,000 inmates; now, there are 100, with 62,000 inmates. It is expected that by the coming decade, the number will hit 360,000, according to reports.

What has happened over the last 10 years? Why are there so many prisoners?

“The private contracting of prisoners for work fosters incentives to lock people up. Prisons depend on this income. Corporate stockholders who make money off prisoners’ work lobby for longer sentences, in order to expand their workforce. The system feeds itself,” says a study by the Progressive Labor Party, which accuses the prison industry of being “an imitation of Nazi Germany with respect to forced slave labor and concentration camps.”

The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and its investors are on Wall Street. “This multimillion-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors.”

According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.

CRIME GOES DOWN, JAIL POPULATION GOES UP

According to reports by human rights organizations, these are the factors that increase the profit potential for those who invest in the prison industry complex:

. Jailing persons convicted of non-violent crimes, and long prison sentences for possession of microscopic quantities of illegal drugs. Federal law stipulates five years’ imprisonment without possibility of parole for possession of 5 grams of crack or 3.5 ounces of heroin, and 10 years for possession of less than 2 ounces of rock-cocaine or crack. A sentence of 5 years for cocaine powder requires possession of 500 grams – 100 times more than the quantity of rock cocaine for the same sentence. Most of those who use cocaine powder are white, middle-class or rich people, while mostly Blacks and Latinos use rock cocaine. In Texas, a person may be sentenced for up to two years’ imprisonment for possessing 4 ounces of marijuana. Here in New York, the 1973 Nelson Rockefeller anti-drug law provides for a mandatory prison sentence of 15 years to life for possession of 4 ounces of any illegal drug.

. The passage in 13 states of the “three strikes” laws (life in prison after being convicted of three felonies), made it necessary to build 20 new federal prisons. One of the most disturbing cases resulting from this measure was that of a prisoner who for stealing a car and two bicycles received three 25-year sentences.

. Longer sentences.

. The passage of laws that require minimum sentencing, without regard for circumstances.

. A large expansion of work by prisoners creating profits that motivate the incarceration of more people for longer periods of time.

. More punishment of prisoners, so as to lengthen their sentences.

HISTORY OF PRISON LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES

Prison labor has its roots in slavery. After the 1861-1865 Civil War, a system of “hiring out prisoners” was introduced in order to continue the slavery tradition. Freed slaves were charged with not carrying out their sharecropping commitments (cultivating someone else’s land in exchange for part of the harvest) or petty thievery – which were almost never proven – and were then “hired out” for cotton picking, working in mines and building railroads. From 1870 until 1910 in the state of Georgia, 88% of hired-out convicts were Black. In Alabama, 93% of “hired-out” miners were Black. In Mississippi, a huge prison farm similar to the old slave plantations replaced the system of hiring out convicts. The notorious Parchman plantation existed until 1972.

During the post-Civil War period, Jim Crow racial segregation laws were imposed on every state, with legal segregation in schools, housing, marriages and many other aspects of daily life. “Today, a new set of markedly racist laws is imposing slave labor and sweatshops on the criminal justice system, now known as the prison industry complex,” comments the Left Business Observer.

Who is investing? At least 37 states have legalized the contracting of prison labor by private corporations that mount their operations inside state prisons. The list of such companies contains the cream of U.S. corporate society: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom’s, Revlon, Macy’s, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. All of these businesses are excited about the economic boom generation by prison labor. Just between 1980 and 1994, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Inmates in state penitentiaries generally receive the minimum wage for their work, but not all; in Colorado, they get about $2 per hour, well under the minimum. And in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call “highly skilled positions.” At those rates, it is no surprise that inmates find the pay in federal prisons to be very generous. There, they can earn $1.25 an hour and work eight hours a day, and sometimes overtime. They can send home $200-$300 per month.

Thanks to prison labor, the United States is once again an attractive location for investment in work that was designed for Third World labor markets. A company that operated a maquiladora (assembly plant in Mexico near the border) closed down its operations there and relocated to San Quentin State Prison in California. In Texas, a factory fired its 150 workers and contracted the services of prisoner-workers from the private Lockhart Texas prison, where circuit boards are assembled for companies like IBM and Compaq.

[Former] Oregon State Representative Kevin Mannix recently urged Nike to cut its production in Indonesia and bring it to his state, telling the shoe manufacturer that “there won’t be any transportation costs; we’re offering you competitive prison labor (here).”

PRIVATE PRISONS

The prison privatization boom began in the 1980s, under the governments of Ronald Reagan and Bush Sr., but reached its height in 1990 under William Clinton, when Wall Street stocks were selling like hotcakes. Clinton’s program for cutting the federal workforce resulted in the Justice Departments contracting of private prison corporations for the incarceration of undocumented workers and high-security inmates.

Private prisons are the biggest business in the prison industry complex. About 18 corporations guard 10,000 prisoners in 27 states. The two largest are Correctional Corporation of America (CCA) and Wackenhut, which together control 75%. Private prisons receive a guaranteed amount of money for each prisoner, independent of what it costs to maintain each one. According to Russell Boraas, a private prison administrator in Virginia, “the secret to low operating costs is having a minimal number of guards for the maximum number of prisoners.” The CCA has an ultra-modern prison in Lawrenceville, Virginia, where five guards on dayshift and two at night watch over 750 prisoners. In these prisons, inmates may get their sentences reduced for “good behavior,” but for any infraction, they get 30 days added – which means more profits for CCA. According to a study of New Mexico prisons, it was found that CCA inmates lost “good behavior time” at a rate eight times higher than those in state prisons.

IMPORTING AND EXPORTING INMATES

Profits are so good that now there is a new business: importing inmates with long sentences, meaning the worst criminals. When a federal judge ruled that overcrowding in Texas prisons was cruel and unusual punishment, the CCA signed contracts with sheriffs in poor counties to build and run new jails and share the profits. According to a December 1998 Atlantic Monthly magazine article, this program was backed by investors from Merrill-Lynch, Shearson-Lehman, American Express and Allstate, and the operation was scattered all over rural Texas. That state’s governor, Ann Richards, followed the example of Mario Cuomo in New York and built so many state prisons that the market became flooded, cutting into private prison profits.

After a law signed by Clinton in 1996 – ending court supervision and decisions – caused overcrowding and violent, unsafe conditions in federal prisons, private prison corporations in Texas began to contact other states whose prisons were overcrowded, offering “rent-a-cell” services in the CCA prisons located in small towns in Texas. The commission for a rent-a-cell salesman is $2.50 to $5.50 per day per bed. The county gets $1.50 for each prisoner.

STATISTICS

Ninety-seven percent of 125,000 federal inmates have been convicted of non-violent crimes. It is believed that more than half of the 623,000 inmates in municipal or county jails are innocent of the crimes they are accused of. Of these, the majority are awaiting trial. Two-thirds of the one million state prisoners have committed non-violent offenses. Sixteen percent of the country’s 2 million prisoners suffer from mental illness.



Now, Porkie, you make those prisons sound as bad as Nike factory.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

:lol:

[RBP]

I stopped reading there for one reason: If drugs were legal there would be no international/interstate/conspiracy charges because the basis behind those charges (illegal drugs) would be no longer be illegal.

So yes, you could technically shrink the prison population by almost half. Some of that half had more than just drug charges (murder, assault, etc) so they would get to stay and hang out.

Complete nonsense.

Assuming Federal prisoners are 25% of state and federal combined, even if all the drug offenses were eliminated you would reduce prison population by 12.5%, maybe a bit more, not 50%.

More importantly, you are making the insane assumption that were it not for the drug business, these choir boys would be law abiding citizens. Good luck with that one.

[RBP]

Human rights organizations, as well as political and social ones, are condemning what they are calling a new form of inhumane exploitation in the United States, where they say a prison population of up to 2 million – mostly Black and Hispanic – are working for various industries for a pittance. For the tycoons who have invested in the prison industry, it has been like finding a pot of gold. They don’t have to worry about strikes or paying unemployment insurance, vacations or comp time. All of their workers are full-time, and never arrive late or are absent because of family problems; moreover, if they don’t like the pay of 25 cents an hour and refuse to work, they are locked up in isolation cells.

There are approximately 2 million inmates in state, federal and private prisons throughout the country. According to California Prison Focus, “no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens.” The figures show that the United States has locked up more people than any other country: a half million more than China, which has a population five times greater than the U.S. Statistics reveal that the United States holds 25% of the world’s prison population, but only 5% of the world’s people. From less than 300,000 inmates in 1972, the jail population grew to 2 million by the year 2000. In 1990 it was one million. Ten years ago there were only five private prisons in the country, with a population of 2,000 inmates; now, there are 100, with 62,000 inmates. It is expected that by the coming decade, the number will hit 360,000, according to reports.

What has happened over the last 10 years? Why are there so many prisoners?

“The private contracting of prisoners for work fosters incentives to lock people up. Prisons depend on this income. Corporate stockholders who make money off prisoners’ work lobby for longer sentences, in order to expand their workforce. The system feeds itself,” says a study by the Progressive Labor Party, which accuses the prison industry of being “an imitation of Nazi Germany with respect to forced slave labor and concentration camps.”

The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and its investors are on Wall Street. “This multimillion-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors.”

According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.

CRIME GOES DOWN, JAIL POPULATION GOES UP

According to reports by human rights organizations, these are the factors that increase the profit potential for those who invest in the prison industry complex:

. Jailing persons convicted of non-violent crimes, and long prison sentences for possession of microscopic quantities of illegal drugs. Federal law stipulates five years’ imprisonment without possibility of parole for possession of 5 grams of crack or 3.5 ounces of heroin, and 10 years for possession of less than 2 ounces of rock-cocaine or crack. A sentence of 5 years for cocaine powder requires possession of 500 grams – 100 times more than the quantity of rock cocaine for the same sentence. Most of those who use cocaine powder are white, middle-class or rich people, while mostly Blacks and Latinos use rock cocaine. In Texas, a person may be sentenced for up to two years’ imprisonment for possessing 4 ounces of marijuana. Here in New York, the 1973 Nelson Rockefeller anti-drug law provides for a mandatory prison sentence of 15 years to life for possession of 4 ounces of any illegal drug.

. The passage in 13 states of the “three strikes” laws (life in prison after being convicted of three felonies), made it necessary to build 20 new federal prisons. One of the most disturbing cases resulting from this measure was that of a prisoner who for stealing a car and two bicycles received three 25-year sentences.

. Longer sentences.

. The passage of laws that require minimum sentencing, without regard for circumstances.

. A large expansion of work by prisoners creating profits that motivate the incarceration of more people for longer periods of time.

. More punishment of prisoners, so as to lengthen their sentences.

HISTORY OF PRISON LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES

Prison labor has its roots in slavery. After the 1861-1865 Civil War, a system of “hiring out prisoners” was introduced in order to continue the slavery tradition. Freed slaves were charged with not carrying out their sharecropping commitments (cultivating someone else’s land in exchange for part of the harvest) or petty thievery – which were almost never proven – and were then “hired out” for cotton picking, working in mines and building railroads. From 1870 until 1910 in the state of Georgia, 88% of hired-out convicts were Black. In Alabama, 93% of “hired-out” miners were Black. In Mississippi, a huge prison farm similar to the old slave plantations replaced the system of hiring out convicts. The notorious Parchman plantation existed until 1972.

During the post-Civil War period, Jim Crow racial segregation laws were imposed on every state, with legal segregation in schools, housing, marriages and many other aspects of daily life. “Today, a new set of markedly racist laws is imposing slave labor and sweatshops on the criminal justice system, now known as the prison industry complex,” comments the Left Business Observer.

Who is investing? At least 37 states have legalized the contracting of prison labor by private corporations that mount their operations inside state prisons. The list of such companies contains the cream of U.S. corporate society: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom’s, Revlon, Macy’s, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. All of these businesses are excited about the economic boom generation by prison labor. Just between 1980 and 1994, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Inmates in state penitentiaries generally receive the minimum wage for their work, but not all; in Colorado, they get about $2 per hour, well under the minimum. And in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call “highly skilled positions.” At those rates, it is no surprise that inmates find the pay in federal prisons to be very generous. There, they can earn $1.25 an hour and work eight hours a day, and sometimes overtime. They can send home $200-$300 per month.

Thanks to prison labor, the United States is once again an attractive location for investment in work that was designed for Third World labor markets. A company that operated a maquiladora (assembly plant in Mexico near the border) closed down its operations there and relocated to San Quentin State Prison in California. In Texas, a factory fired its 150 workers and contracted the services of prisoner-workers from the private Lockhart Texas prison, where circuit boards are assembled for companies like IBM and Compaq.

[Former] Oregon State Representative Kevin Mannix recently urged Nike to cut its production in Indonesia and bring it to his state, telling the shoe manufacturer that “there won’t be any transportation costs; we’re offering you competitive prison labor (here).”

PRIVATE PRISONS

The prison privatization boom began in the 1980s, under the governments of Ronald Reagan and Bush Sr., but reached its height in 1990 under William Clinton, when Wall Street stocks were selling like hotcakes. Clinton’s program for cutting the federal workforce resulted in the Justice Departments contracting of private prison corporations for the incarceration of undocumented workers and high-security inmates.

Private prisons are the biggest business in the prison industry complex. About 18 corporations guard 10,000 prisoners in 27 states. The two largest are Correctional Corporation of America (CCA) and Wackenhut, which together control 75%. Private prisons receive a guaranteed amount of money for each prisoner, independent of what it costs to maintain each one. According to Russell Boraas, a private prison administrator in Virginia, “the secret to low operating costs is having a minimal number of guards for the maximum number of prisoners.” The CCA has an ultra-modern prison in Lawrenceville, Virginia, where five guards on dayshift and two at night watch over 750 prisoners. In these prisons, inmates may get their sentences reduced for “good behavior,” but for any infraction, they get 30 days added – which means more profits for CCA. According to a study of New Mexico prisons, it was found that CCA inmates lost “good behavior time” at a rate eight times higher than those in state prisons.

IMPORTING AND EXPORTING INMATES

Profits are so good that now there is a new business: importing inmates with long sentences, meaning the worst criminals. When a federal judge ruled that overcrowding in Texas prisons was cruel and unusual punishment, the CCA signed contracts with sheriffs in poor counties to build and run new jails and share the profits. According to a December 1998 Atlantic Monthly magazine article, this program was backed by investors from Merrill-Lynch, Shearson-Lehman, American Express and Allstate, and the operation was scattered all over rural Texas. That state’s governor, Ann Richards, followed the example of Mario Cuomo in New York and built so many state prisons that the market became flooded, cutting into private prison profits.

After a law signed by Clinton in 1996 – ending court supervision and decisions – caused overcrowding and violent, unsafe conditions in federal prisons, private prison corporations in Texas began to contact other states whose prisons were overcrowded, offering “rent-a-cell” services in the CCA prisons located in small towns in Texas. The commission for a rent-a-cell salesman is $2.50 to $5.50 per day per bed. The county gets $1.50 for each prisoner.

STATISTICS

Ninety-seven percent of 125,000 federal inmates have been convicted of non-violent crimes. It is believed that more than half of the 623,000 inmates in municipal or county jails are innocent of the crimes they are accused of. Of these, the majority are awaiting trial. Two-thirds of the one million state prisoners have committed non-violent offenses. Sixteen percent of the country’s 2 million prisoners suffer from mental illness.

Outstanding, Porky, thank you for making my case. It's all about racial discrimination, the new Jim Crow! Couldn't have posted a better example of the exact fact manipulation I was talking about.

Use the numbers from this article. Prisoners went up 1 million from 1990 to 2000. For profit prisons house 62,000. Yes, that's clearly the cause.

[FBD]

RBP...just curious if you understand the whole "control mechanism" thing...

[RBP]

RBP...just curious if you understand the whole "control mechanism" thing...

Feel free to be less nebulous.

[FBD]

:lol: is there any real incentive for the government to keep the war on drugs going, by ANY measure it is a spectacular failure and voracious money pit?

weed was made illegal because of the cotton industry lobbying congress.

outside of the government not wanting to admit it was bought and purchased yet again by private interests...what possible reason, outside of another implementation of societal control mechanism, does the government have for this?

[RBP]

:lol: is there any real incentive for the government to keep the war on drugs going, by ANY measure it is a spectacular failure and voracious money pit?

weed was made illegal because of the cotton industry lobbying congress.

outside of the government not wanting to admit it was bought and purchased yet again by private interests...what possible reason, outside of another implementation of societal control mechanism, does the government have for this?

I haven't made a single comment about the necessity of the war on drugs. I was addressing what I see as the completely incorrect idea that prison sentences for possession explains mass incarceration. Drug offenses in general don't explain mass incarceration either.

The history of the US using brute force to control what substances are legal and illegal was driven by protecting and advancing the US pharmaceutical industry. I'll agree there. And yes, there are vested interests in the process. It's not working, but I haven't heard a workable alternative either. Some nations are moving to the position of "minimizing harm" versus prohibition and interdiction but it's too early to tell if that approach has any better results.

[FBD]

I think places that already have that approach do much better. I'll agree that the massive prison population isnt explained by prison sentences for minor drug offenses, I think that's where some context is getting conflated in the discussion here - you're sticking to just the thread topic, ya bastad :lol: I'm fully of the opinion that the heavy hand of state imprisons so many just so that the heavy hand of state can show its got a heavy pimp hand and ye feckin plebes better stay in line so that we dont have to use this heavy hand against you.

hence #policestate

[Acid Trip]

Complete nonsense.

Assuming Federal prisoners are 25% of state and federal combined, even if all the drug offenses were eliminated you would reduce prison population by 12.5%, maybe a bit more, not 50%.

More importantly, you are making the insane assumption that were it not for the drug business, these choir boys would be law abiding citizens. Good luck with that one.

I was basing my numbers on FBDs comment that "are we talking federal or state prisons? for federal it is over half."

Don't forget that drug charges includes all charges related to that illegal activity (selling/moving drugs). So you could throw in a lot of RICO charges, conspiracy, trafficking, intent to distribute, etc etc. Most of those charges stemmed from the drugs and what is involved in moving/selling them.

So could you release half? Maybe. I said technically, based on all charges related to drugs, you could TECHNICALLY release almost half. Here are the numbers to support what FBD said and what I made an assumption based on.

(Drug Offenders in US Prisons 2012)
Federal: On Dec. 31, 2012, there were 196,574 sentenced prisoners under federal jurisdiction. Of these, 99,426 were serving time for drug offenses, 11,688 for violent offenses, 11,568 for property offenses, and 72,519 for "public order" offenses (of which 23,700 were sentenced for immigration offenses, 30,046 for weapons offenses, and 17,633 for "other").

99,426 > 50% of 196,574

[PorkChopSandwiches]

:hand: stop with your math as proof. My hair is a bird

[Acid Trip]

(Drug Offenders in US Prisons 2012)
State: On Dec. 31, 2011, there were 1,341,797 sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction. Of these, 222,738 were serving time for drug offenses, of whom 55,013 were merely convicted for possession. There were also 717,861 serving time for violent offenses, 249,574 for property offenses, 142,230 for "public order" offenses (which include weapons, drunk driving, court offenses, commercialized vice, morals and decency offenses, liquor law violations, and other public-order offenses), and 9,392 for "other/unspecified".

So 25% of drug convictions in state prisons are merely for POSSESSION. That's a lot of people in jail for possession.

[RBP]

(Drug Offenders in US Prisons 2012)
State: On Dec. 31, 2011, there were 1,341,797 sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction. Of these, 222,738 were serving time for drug offenses, of whom 55,013 were merely convicted for possession. There were also 717,861 serving time for violent offenses, 249,574 for property offenses, 142,230 for "public order" offenses (which include weapons, drunk driving, court offenses, commercialized vice, morals and decency offenses, liquor law violations, and other public-order offenses), and 9,392 for "other/unspecified".

So 25% of drug convictions in state prisons are merely for POSSESSION. That's a lot of people in jail for possession.

I'm glad we agree. Based on your numbers, less than 17% of state prisoners are in for drug charges, 13% for trafficking and 4% for possession.

And I am sure you are aware that possession can mean a lot of things, but if they are in state prison they had a large supply.

I have been busting the myth that our prisons are teeming with people put there because they smoked a joint. Simply not true and your numbers support that.

[FBD]

Ok, but do you agree our prisons are WAY too populated, and arbitrary government rulings and favoritism have been a big factor in helping that manifest? :D

[RBP]

Ok, but do you agree our prisons are WAY too populated, and arbitrary government rulings and favoritism have been a big factor in helping that manifest? :D

That may be. I don't have a good handle on the spike. There are a lot of problems. Perhaps drug charges are a part, perhaps 3 strikes laws, perhaps mandatory minimums, I have not seen a fair analysis. Everyone is either spewing racial bias or solely blame the war on drugs. I don't buy either theory. If someone finds a good factual analysis without an agenda, I'd love to read it.

[RBP]

Some you may know I am no fan of the sex offender registry. It's useless public information that may do more harm than good.

Real example. Don't ask me for the actual information or where it came from.

Convicted in 1991 for sexual assault. Served his time. Was subsequently convicted 6 more times and sentenced to a total of 16.5 years. The addition 6 convictions for all for failing to report address changes or to check in with the local police once a year. No criminal acts in 23 years that I know of, but he is in prison again.

I am sure there are a lot of examples where the law doesn't make sense. That may be one.

[Muddy]

Some you may know I am no fan of the sex offender registry. It's useless public information that may do more harm than good.

Real example. Don't ask me for the actual information or where it came from.

Convicted in 1991 for sexual assault. Served his time. Was subsequently convicted 6 more times and sentenced to a total of 16.5 years. The addition 6 convictions for all for failing to report address changes or to check in with the local police once a year. No criminal acts in 23 years that I know of, but he is in prison again.

I am sure there are a lot of examples where the law doesn't make sense. That may be one.

Is this why you hate women too?

[FBD]

there are a lot of examples where the law doesn't make sense. That may be one.

what was that a wise man once said about the tyranny of a kingdom, and the number of laws therein...

[RBP]

Is this why you hate women too?

:stfu:

[KevinD]

:slapyomama:

[FBD]

Submitted by Mike Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog (http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/05/14/how-marijuana-legalization-in-america-is-destroying-mexican-drug-cartel-business/),

Nothing is more amusing (and sad) than when I see some ignorant out of stater commenting about how nightmarish the legalization of marijuana has been for Colorado. The most high-profile and hilarious example of this came from disgraced New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who I have criticized sharply on several occasions, here (http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2013/07/27/chris-christie-calls-libertarianism-a-dangerous-thought/), here (http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/01/13/the-trouble-with-chris-christie-by-chris-hedges/) and here (http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/01/14/jon-stewart-on-chris-christie-absolutely-hilarious/). He foolishly spouted some hysterical nonsense last month when he said:

“See if you want to live in a major city in Colorado, where there’s head shops popping up on every corner and people flying into your airport just to come and get high. To me, it’s just not the quality of life we want to have here in the state of New Jersey and there’s no tax revenue that’s worth that.”

Honestly, what planet does this clown live on? As someone who actually lives in Colorado, I can tell you that the only thing that has changed since legalization is that there is a greater sense of freedom and people are no longer getting arrested in droves for non-violent drug possession charges. Let’s not forget that the police arrest someone every two seconds in America (http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2013/09/17/land-of-the-free-american-police-make-an-arrest-every-2-seconds-in-2012/), many of which are for mere drug possession charges. Apparently, Christie thinks this is a good thing and ultimately results in this mythical wonderful “quality of life” that apparently exists in some corner of New Jersey where rainbow farting unicorns roam the countryside.


As someone who spent nearly three decades in the New York metro area, and who has lived in Colorado now for over three years, I can tell you there’s no comparison. I’ve met many, many people who have intentionally left New Jersey for Colorado, yet I’ve never met a single person who has intentionally left Colorado for New Jersey. Perhaps that person exists and is currently flying back east on his unicorn and is therefore unavailable for comment.
Anyway, while we are on the topic, the Huffington Post posted a great article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/chris-christie-marijuana-colorado_n_5200414.html)comparing the two states. They note:

[i]Business climate: It turns out Colorado is a great place for business, ranking seventh out of the 50 states in a 2013 study from CNBC (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100824779) that took into consideration metrics like economy, infrastructure and the cost of doing business. New Jersey came in 42nd.

Forbes agrees, listing Colorado as the fifth best state for “business and careers (http://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/).” New Jersey comes in 32nd on the Forbes list.

Economic growth and job creation: FreeEnterprise.com gathered data (http://www.freeenterprise.com/enterprisingstates/#map/all/CO/) on just how well the 50 states do at creating jobs and fostering economic growth. They ranked Colorado second in the nation for innovation and entrepreneurship (New Jersey was 14th), 14th in economic performance (New Jersey came in at 33rd), and eighth for business climate (New Jersey was 49th).

The state of the states: Politico recently gathered various data points from the Census Bureau, the FBI and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and incorporated them with a slew of other factors, including income, high school graduation rates, life expectancy and more. In their subsequent ranking of the 50 states (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/states-of-our-union-are-not-all-strong-102547.html?hp=f2#.U1gZb-ZdUif), Colorado came in seventh overall, while New Jersey came in 12th.

General well-being: The health care company Healthways partnered up with Gallup in 2013 to evaluate well-being across the United States (http://info.healthways.com/wbi2013). Looking at residents’ habits and behavior, emotional and physical health, work environments and more, they determined that Colorado ranks seventh in overall well-being. New Jersey comes in 23rd.

Furthermore, the city I currently live in was recently ranked the most fit city in all of America, and 3 of the top 10 cities were in Colorado. New Jersey had no cities in the top ten. Although to be fair, Christie probably skews the data quite a bit. See the rankings here (http://www.gallup.com/poll/168230/boulder-colo-residents-least-likely-obese.aspx).

Technology and science: The Milken Institute, a California think tank, recently took a close look at how states foster growth in technology and science, two areas that will likely prove key to the United States’ economic recovery. Colorado was ranked fourth in the nation (http://www.milkeninstitute.org/pdf/STSI2013.pdf). New Jersey was ranked 15th.

Chris Christie is clearly an ill informed blowhard and let’s not forget this guy wants to become President. How scary is that?


Moving along to the meat of this piece, Vice recently published a great article (https://news.vice.com/article/legal-pot-in-the-us-is-crippling-mexican-cartels) explaining how the legalization of pot is causing Mexican drug cartels to reduce plantings of marijuana and it also describes the frighteningly irrational response from the DEA. It reports that:


Marijuana has accounted for nearly half of all total drug arrests (http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Crime#sthash.TEQMC8Yq.dpbs) in the US for the past 20 years, according to the FBI’s crime statistics. And according to the Department of Justice (DOJ), a large portion of the US illegal drug market is controlled directly by Mexican cartels. The DOJ’s National Drug Intelligence Center, which has since been shut down, found in 2011 that the top cartels controlled the majority of drug trade (http://www.justice.gov/archive/ndic/pubs44/44849/44849p.pdf) in marijuana, heroin, and methamphetamine in over 1,000 US cities.

Now, those cartels and their farmers complain that marijuana legalization is hurting their business. And some reports could suggest that the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is more interested in helping to protect the Mexican cartels’ hold on the pot trade than in letting it dissipate. The Washington Post reported on Tuesday that pot farmers in the Sinaloa region have stopped planting (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/tracing-the-us-heroin-surge-back-south-of-the-border-as-mexican-cannabis-output-falls/2014/04/06/58dfc590-2123-4cc6-b664-1e5948960576_story.html) due to a massive drop in wholesale prices, from $100 per kilo down to only $25. One farmer is quoted as saying: “It’s not worth it anymore. I wish the Americans would stop with this legalization.”

“Is it hurting the cartels? Yes. The cartels are criminal organizations that were making as much as 35-40 percent of their income from marijuana,” Nelson said, “They aren’t able to move as much cannabis inside the US now.”

In 2012, a study by the Mexican Competitiveness Institute (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-us-marijuana-legalization-would-hurt-mexican-cartels/) found that US state legalization would cut into cartel business and take over about 30 percent of their market.

Given the DEA’s historic relationship with the Sinaloa cartel, and the agency’s fury over legalized marijuana, it almost seems like the DEA wants to crush the legal weed market in order to protect the interests of their cartel friends. Almost.

Not almost, that is exactly what they want to do.


"The DEA doesn’t want the drug war to end,” said Nelson, when asked about a possible connection between the agency’s hatred of legal pot and its buddies in Sinaloa. “If it ends, they don’t get their toys and their budgets. Once it ends, they aren’t going to have the kind of influence in foreign government. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but where there’s smoke there’s probably fire.”

The Sinaloa cartel came to prominence in January when the “Fast and Furious” scandal surfaced, in which it was revealed that DEA agents ignored Sinaloa drug shipments (http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/01/14/was-operation-fast-and-furious-really-part-of-a-secret-deal-between-the-dea-and-mexicos-sinaloa-drug-cartel/) and essentially granted immunity to cartel criminals in exchange for information.

Another way the DEA tries to shut down legal marijuana dispensaries, and medical marijuana clinics, is through the banks. While large banks like HSBC and Wachovia have gotten away with laundering billions in cartel drug money (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs), famously referred to as “too big to jail (http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/banks-above-the-law/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0)” by Attorney General Eric Holder, banks have been meticulously instructed by the DEA (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/17/us-usa-marijuana-banks-idUSTRE75G4G120110617) not to work with any kind of marijuana facility.

That’s pennies compared to what the US spends on the drug war. According to the Drug Policy Alliance (http://www.drugpolicy.org/wasted-tax-dollars), we spend $51 billion per year fighting illegal drugs. A 2010 study (http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/budgetary-impact-ending-drug-prohibition) by Harvard economist Jeffrey Miron found that not only would the US save tremendous amounts of money were it to end drug prohibition, legalizing could bring in an additional $46.7 billion in yearly tax revenue.

“We’ve spent 1.3 trillion since 1972 on the drug war. What have we gotten for that? Drugs are cheaper and easier to get than ever before,” Nelson told VICE News.

For more evidence of the insane mindset permeating the DEA, check out this article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/13/dea-seizes-kentuckys-hemp_n_5318098.html?&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067) that shows how the agency seized hemp seed from Kentucky as state universities attempted to participate in legal studies.

The DEA has no idea what to do with itself now that the population of innocent citizens it can harass for exercising a personal choice and the amount of bribe money it can extract from drug cartels dissipates. Bottom line is that people want drugs, and as long as that’s the case, no petty authoritarian wearing a badge and a costume on some misguided moral crusade will change that.

And in addition, Mark Thronton had some thoughts (http://bastiat.mises.org/2014/05/legalization-puts-drug-cartels-out-of-business/)...


The Washington Post explains (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/tracing-the-us-heroin-surge-back-south-of-the-border-as-mexican-cannabis-output-falls/2014/04/06/58dfc590-2123-4cc6-b664-1e5948960576_story.html) that drug legalization in Colorado and Washington, along with Medical Marijuana Legalization in many other states has hurt the illegal marijuana growing business in northern Mexico. However, the Mexican drug cartels have been bailed out by America’s drug warriors who have cracked down on prescription pain killers. Prescription pain killers and heroin are both very addictive and deadly dangerous so that legalization would not only put the cartels out of business, but would open opportunities to address the problems of pain and addiction in a medical format rather than the black market.

[Lambchop]

Isn't there a conflict of interest when you put trust in a jail system that operates for profit, especially when we are talking about whether or not a person is placed in confinement?

BTW I know very little about the system over there, only trying to understand what has happened.

[RBP]

Isn't there a conflict of interest when you put trust in a jail system that operates for profit, especially when we are talking about whether or not a person is placed in confinement?

BTW I know very little about the system over there, only trying to understand what has happened.

That has been made an argument, and may be a conflict if the jailers have influence over sentencing laws. I am not sure if that is true, but regardless, the for profit prison system is a very small portion of the facilities. Most states are looking for ways to cut the costs and moving towards more liberal release policies.

[FBD]

all you will need to know if you want to find the answer to that question is how much money is involved and for how few people or corporations.

[RBP]

Fun facts from Illinois State prisons, data from June, 2012 (most recently published). This is only state DOC facilities, it does not any include county or local jails. Cook county (Chicago and collar towns), for example, has 13,000 in one county jail.

These are publicly available, I am not presenting any confidential information, but thought these were interesting. Most states are required to report, so your state DOC probably has something similar. Obviously I cherry picked the stats I thought we fun facts. Illinois has approximately 13MM residents.

Total prisoners in the IL DOC: 48,324
Average age: 36.4
% Black/White/Hispanic: 57%/29.5%/13.1%
% male: 94.1%
% foreign nationals: 5.7%
% with a HS diploma or GED: 37%
% in prison for DUI: 3.4% (1664)
% in prison for cannabis: 1.7% (807)
% from Cook County (Chicago et al) crimes: 49.6%
Top three criminal charges: Homicide (8904), Controlled substances act (8465), Sexual assault (4640)

Remember that this has nothing to do with conviction rates, just current population.