Pro-life/pro-choice hypocrisy

[Teh One Who Knocks]

I read an interesting article about how pro-life people when it comes to abortion, but are pro-capital punishment are hypocrites. The same for the reverse (pro-choice for abortion but anti-death penalty).

I'm not sure it can be boiled down to simple hypocrisy as there are always extenuating circumstances on either side and it's not always black and white where the decision can be absolute. Personally, I am pro-choice and pro-capital punishment so I guess my views don't fall into what the author of the opinion piece described as hypocritical.

What does everyone else think? Can you be 100% pro-choice when it comes to abortions and 100% for the death penalty (or vice-versa) and not be hypocritical? I can see the author's point in some ways, but in other ways, like I already stated, not every situation is black and white, most things in this world fall into those grey areas.

[RBP]

That totally depends on your personal definition of when life begins. If you are pro-choice prior to "life" but antiabortion after that point it is not hypocrisy at all. I also don't believe that you are 100% pro choice. I am sure you have a limit.

[FBD]

even old taoist text concur about the general 3 month thing. a zygote simply does not have the requisite machinery for attachment as it were, it is like that for all forms of life. so much after that I am personally against abortion. if you get it done as soon as you find out and it is very early, no biggie, but if you wait until second or god forbid third trimester then that is negligent and murderous, unless there are complications that threaten the mother's life.

capital punishment...you basically need to be a serial killer or have committed a particularly gruesome act of killing, in my view.

[Pony]

I'm personally pro-both but I can see how someone could be against abortion but for capitol punishment, the simple argument would be the guy on death row isn't an innocent. I don't see how the other side of the arguement would work though.

[Acid Trip]

What does everyone else think? Can you be 100% pro-choice when it comes to abortions and 100% for the death penalty (or vice-versa) and not be hypocritical? I can see the author's point in some ways, but in other ways, like I already stated, not every situation is black and white, most things in this world fall into those grey areas.

Yes, you can be both. I'm pro-life and pro-capital punishment. Two consider the two incompatible or "hypocritical" shows me the author is a damn fool.

Babies are spiritually, morally, and legally pure. They haven't done anything wrong and should therefore spared the death penalty which is what an abortion amounts to.

Adults reap what they sow. If a guy decides to murder and dismember his victim that's fine, but now we're going to kill you for your legally and morally corrupt actions.

[KevinD]

Pretty much what AT said.

I've heard on the news yesterday or so about a boy (17ish) that killed his girlfriend. She was pregnant with twins, his apparently. He's being charged with multiple homicides, due to the death of the embryos.
I don't understand how this is different than abortion.

[RBP]

Pretty much what AT said.

I've heard on the news yesterday or so about a boy (17ish) that killed his girlfriend. She was pregnant with twins, his apparently. He's being charged with multiple homicides, due to the death of the embryos.
I don't understand how this is different than abortion.

I understand the confusion, I share it. Although inconsistent, the states that have fetal crime laws have separately enacted statutes to give prosecutors leeway to bring enhanced charges against a person who kills both mother and baby, or in some cases just baby. If you view it similar terms to hate crime statutes, it is simply an advanced prosecution tool for something society views as particularly abhorrent, not necessarily an interpretation of life.

[Loser]

Where do I fall into this subject?

As for abortion I'm pro 100% don't give a fuck.

On the other hand I'm all for capital punishment. :lol:

[FBD]

I understand the confusion, I share it. Although inconsistent, the states that have fetal crime laws have separately enacted statutes to give prosecutors leeway to bring enhanced charges against a person who kills both mother and baby, or in some cases just baby. If you view it similar terms to hate crime statutes, it is simply an advanced prosecution tool for something society views as particularly abhorrent, not necessarily an interpretation of life.

that is particularly abhorrent :|

[Godfather]

I guess I'm the only person in this thread who is pro-choice and anti-capital punishment. My views are somewhat similar to FBD with respect to abortion. Early abortions for teenagers and rape victims who wish to abort, I take no issue with. Late abortions are grey but I believe should be performed for the right reasons. I've got a lot of family and friends who are doctors and have told me about some horrific scenarios where carrying a fetus to term is going to be hell because of terrible disabilities that they've detected, or because it might kill the mother and fetus not to abort. If someone wants to abort a pregnancy that they know is going to have extreme mental and physical deformities and lead to a short and painful life, I think it should be the right of teams of doctors and parents to decide on a case by case basis. Not the courts. Plenty of examples where inflexible laws have led to some brutal situations for families.

As for capital punishment, again I don't have enough faith in the legal process to want to see them having the ability to put people to death . The figures on how many innocent people are believed to be put to death or on death row is chilling - and to me that makes capital punishment unacceptable. Being framed/accused of something I didn't do has always been a fear of mine, so maybe that's part of it :lol:


I wouldn't personally consider someone a hypocrite for having opposing opinions on the two topics. They're different matters involving different morals and concerns. But I can see how if you were trying to convince someone one way or another, it would make for an interesting argument :lol:

[Goofy]

Where do I fall into this subject?

As for abortion I'm pro 100% don't give a fuck.

On the other hand I'm all for capital punishment. :lol:

Ditto :)

[RBP]

Where do I fall into this subject?

As for abortion I'm pro 100%


Ditto :)


I find it hard to believe that. 100%, no limits. Labor starts and she can kill it before birth.

[Griffin]

Being framed/accused of something I didn't do has always been a fear of mine, so maybe that's part of it

A good book on this, " No Rest For the Dead (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9413879-no-rest-for-the-dead) "
A collaborative novel by 26 different writers. Definitely a good read. :thumbsup:

[Hal-9000]

I'm pro choice for abortion and pro-capital punishment..


For me it's always been about the moment you define a sperm attaching to an egg as being a life. Some say it's the moment it occurs, others give it a term in weeks to define it as a life.

eg If a woman is 4 weeks along in pregnancy and has an abortion, I consider that an embryo/life...but it's still her choice. The night after she has sex is not a life, in my opinion.



As RBP mentions, I am pro choice for abortion but there is a limit/time that I view it as - either scraping the uterine wall of biological matter or removing an embryo...depending on the time frame. Regarding capital punishment if the accused admits or there is overwhelming evidence, I have no problems with removing that person from the world.

[Godfather]

Serious follow-up question - I'm open to having my view changed as it has flip flopped on this topic a few times in my life: How do the pro-capital punishment folks reconcile knowing that there have been and will be innocent people put to death by us (juries/judges)?


In my view, technologies can emerge and we hope the legal process improves, but there are going to be innocent people who die for this form of punishment to exist. The mistakes realized once DNA become admissible are proof of this, and future breakthroughs will show this again. One study (take it or leave it) over many years estimated the innocence rate to be 2.8 percent and 5.2 percent (www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2615441/Study-finds-one-25-people-imprisoned-death-sentence-likely-innocent.html) meaning perhaps 1/25 put to death was not guilty. To me, life in prison is punishment enough if it means keeping those who should be free to be exonerated and live their life in the pursuit of happiness. If we had a way to go back in time and watch what really happened, I'd be all for it.

[DemonGeminiX]

Serious follow-up question - I'm open to having my view changed as it has flip flopped on this topic a few times in my life: How do the pro-capital punishment folks reconcile knowing that there have been and will be innocent people put to death by us (juries/judges)?


In my view, technologies can emerge and we hope the legal process improves, but there are going to be innocent people who die for this form of punishment to exist. The mistakes realized once DNA become admissible are proof of this, and future breakthroughs will show this again. One study (take it or leave it) over many years estimated the innocence rate to be 2.8 percent and 5.2 percent (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2615441/Study-finds-one-25-people-imprisoned-death-sentence-likely-innocent.html) meaning perhaps 1/25 put to death was not guilty. To me, life in prison is punishment enough if it means keeping those who should be free to be exonerated and live their life in the pursuit of happiness. If we had a way to go back in time and watch what really happened, I'd be all for it.

Humans make mistakes. The legal system isn't perfect. Call it murder if you want, but I think the punishment belongs. Why should taxpayers have to pay for a life that's no use to, and in fact would be nothing but detrimental to, innocent people in society, when it has already caused so much pain and torment in the most egregious manner imaginable?

How do you reconcile allowing ending an innocent life developing inside a woman's body (assuming it's perfectly healthy and no complications arise), when if you ended it after it's born and it's developing on its own, it would be called murder?

You say it's the woman's choice to end this life that is not hers. But it's not her life. That life belongs to another. If we take the life of another it's called murder. So why is abortion not murder? Why is it different when it's inside the womb?

[Godfather]

Humans make mistakes. The legal system isn't perfect. Call it murder if you want, but I think the punishment belongs. Why should taxpayers have to pay for a life that's no use to, and in fact would be nothing but detrimental to, innocent people in society, when it has already caused so much pain and torment in the most egregious manner imaginable?


I agree that it's wasteful to keep murderers and rapists on taxpayers dollars, but knowing full well that some of them aren't murderers makes it a necessary expense does it not? You acknowledged that mistakes are made and went on to say that this people have caused too much pain to be kept alive. That's just it though, some of them simply haven't caused any pain or harm.



How do you reconcile allowing ending an innocent life developing inside a woman's body (assuming it's perfectly healthy and no complications arise), when if you ended it after it's born and it's developing on its own, it would be called murder?

You say it's the woman's choice to end this life that is not hers. But it's not her life. That life belongs to another. If we take the life of another it's called murder. So why is abortion not murder? Why is it different when it's inside the womb?

I see where you're coming from going back to abortion, but the comparison doesn't shake me. I'm not saying that to dodge your point but I just don't believe it's murder because I don't agree that human life begins at conception. I feel that way in particular about early abortions like FBD, say before Quickening. If you believe otherwise, that's great. Some people think contraceptives and/or the Morning-After pill are akin to abortions too. There's no answer key. It comes down to a personal belief and so I don't want the courts to dictate one rule for all the masses (and they don't in Canada), which is why I'm for pro-choice.


I dono, maybe I shouldn't pose as open to changing my mind, like everyone here I'm pretty fucking stubborn :lol:

[DemonGeminiX]

I'd be sorry for the loss of life if it turned out the executed was innocent, but then I'd look at all the wastes of life that legitimately deserve the ultimate punishment and think about what they've done and who've they've hurt. The mistake wouldn't change my stance. I'd just ask that the legal system become better at determining a suspect's guilt or innocence. Ultimately, it's not the punishment that's at fault for the mistake: It's the prosecution, defense, jury, and judge's fault. That process has to be improved.

As for the abortion issue, I do believe that life begins at conception. And not for any religious reason. If the conception is successful and you leave the process alone to its own devices, assuming no complications arise to derail that process naturally and no harm will come to the mother allowing the process to continue naturally, that child will be born. So in my opinion, life begins at conception. It's the starting part of the biological process of life.

At least that's where I stand.

[Godfather]

I'd be sorry for the loss of life if it turned out the executed was innocent, but then I'd look at all the wastes of life that legitimately deserve the ultimate punishment and think about what they've done and who've they've hurt. The mistake wouldn't change my stance. I'd just ask that the legal system become better at determining a suspect's guilt or innocence. Ultimately, it's not the punishment that's at fault for the mistake: It's the prosecution, defense, jury, and judge's fault. That process has to be improved.

That's a very very fair point, thanks.

[Hal-9000]

I don't think life in prison is punishment enough

3 meals per day, never worry about having a roof over your head, clean clothes, heat, power paid by someone else....opportunities to get an education, learn a trade, watch TV, play video games

all of it free....


there's a lot of people in this world who don't have even a third of the above, or they live at the poverty line (like me) struggling to buy things...


Is it really fair to try someone, find them guilty, then set them up for life? I think it's wise not to compare what YOU have vs someone in prison, you have to look at a bigger picture where a percentage of free people are eating dogfood and wearing the same clothes they had 20 years ago...

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Here's my solution to the people that go out of their way to protest capital punishment (not just people that are against it for moral or ethical reasons of their own, but the ones that go down in front of the prison and hold a candlelight vigil for the guy that raped and eviscerated a couple of 13 year old girls).

If you, the protester, feel that strongly that Tyrone the child rapist and murderer should be spared, then he should be remanded into your custody for you to be in charge of and to watch over. You should be responsible for his housing, his feeding, and any other of his basic needs. And, if he, a fine and upstanding member of society that you felt deserved to be saved, breaks the law again while in your custody, then you will be held responsible and will face the same punishment under the law as if you had committed the crime yourself.

[Hal-9000]

Here's my solution to the people that go out of their way to protest capital punishment (not just people that are against it for moral or ethical reasons of their own, but the ones that go down in front of the prison and hold a candlelight vigil for the guy that raped and eviscerated a couple of 13 year old girls).

If you, the protester, feel that strongly that Tyrone the child rapist and murderer should be spared, then he should be remanded into your custody for you to be in charge of and to watch over. You should be responsible for his housing, his feeding, and any other of his basic needs. And, if he, a fine and upstanding member of society that you felt deserved to be saved, breaks the law again while in your custody, then you will be held responsible and will face the same punishment under the law as if you had committed the crime yourself.


yup

[Hal-9000]

Very close to home. In the house two doors down from us, I grew up with their youngest son who was my age (they had 8 kids in the family)

He went on to get married and took over part of the father's family business. I was jealous of him..he married into a ready-made family with a stepdaughter and ran his own business.

A few years back the stepdaughter went missing, she was 17. Strangely, people in her family realized that she was missing because she was normally quite active on social networks. She went dark online, then the family started searching...

They found her, sealed up in a makeshift drawer, wrapped in airtight plastic, added beneath a bed in their home...

My old friend, who was the quietest and most composed of all us kids growing up, had raped her, strangled her and then went to great lengths to hide her body. Apparently the sexual aspect had happened before...He pleaded guilty 'out of respect for his family', avoided a trial and got locked up for 25 years to life.

One of the older brothers and his wife now live in the house. Both myself and my Dad talked to him after the story hit the local news. Older guy said - We've disowned him and don't speak to him anymore. He's done something that's unforgivable in our eyes, please don't judge us based on what he did. And we don't.


My old friend's actions have affected his family to the point where they don't want to and can't forgive him. And the family is hardcore Catholic. I remember the day my friend got confirmed...


Story is long, but my point is simple - some people commit acts that shouldn't be forgiven and if he gets parole in 10-15 years, will he snap and do the same thing again to someone else? Better to ensure that it never happens again. Part of his statement in the paper said - She was going to tell on me about the sex, I couldn't let that happen.



He was one of my best friends growing up, from age 0 to grade 9 or 10 :(

[FBD]

gah, that is a horrible story hal.

I base my feeling of the ~3 month mark because the framework needs to be in place for the attachment of spirit. That's why people generally never give out the news before X amount of weeks, because of the much higher rate of loss...no spirit attachment happens, then the (natural) flush happens. That's why plenty often women will have these dreams, like if you think of the siddhartha story where his mum has the dream with the white elephant. Or my teacher that got a certain interesting visit before the news of his son. For a long time I believed it began at conception, but imho that view is relying on a logic chain that is a little too science oriented, and science has proven itself rather inept wherever metaphysics begins to overlap.