Do the SFPD’s ‘bait bikes’ stop thieves or entrap poor?

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By Kurtis Alexander - SFGate


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San Francisco police are getting high praise for their “bait bikes” — the GPS-tracked bicycles they’ve been laying out across the city to lure thieves, who are then pounced upon.

The New York Times this week picked up on the story and posted a video about the crackdown. (At one point, surveillance footage shows a thief being tackled in the act.) Twitter has since lit up with glowing remarks about the program, presumably from the many who have had their bikes stolen in San Francisco.

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But not everyone is throwing out compliments.

One of the threads circulating on Twitter offers a counter-argument to the program: that bait bikes unfairly seduce people into crime, namely the city’s poor. Furthermore, argues an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina, the program exacerbates the same class divide embodied by Google buses and Mission gentrification.

“In a city in which inequality is greatly increasing, in which those outside the tech industry are struggling to pay rents and deal with increasing cost of life, and in which flushed, moneyed tech employees are buying more and more expensive bikes (the article notes, can cost $10,000), those police are luring people to steal them by intentionally using bait bikes so expensive that the people tempted to steal them can be charged with felonies,” writes Zeynep Tufekci in a blog post.

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Tufekci is not the first to challenge the idea of bait bikes. After Philadelphia launched a similar program last year, critics emerged.

“These kinds of programs —- which come dangerously close to entrapment (in spirit, if not in law) —- are exponentially more likely to net simple opportunists than serial bike thieves,” wrote @cmoraff at Philadelphia magazine.

But the San Francisco Police Department, which reports that bike theft has increased 70 percent in the past five years and now results in $4.6 million worth of losses annually, believes the program is anything but inequitable. It’s catching serial thieves who scout out nice bikes and break through locks, police say.

Officials responded directly on Twitter to the recent criticism.

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[RBP]

I am not a fan of this. Private citizens can add GPS tracking. However, I understand it and they are being caught committing a crime. The adverse impact on the poor argument is hogwash. Adverse impact on thieves.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how the bleeding hearts are calling this 'entrapment'. If the bikes are locked up and the thief has to actually cut the lock/chain to take the bike, that is far away from being entrapment IMHO.

Like the old saying goes, locks are for honest people....

[Pony]

Yep, not entrapment. And I'm all for this.

So the laws shouldn't apply as strictly to those that are poor? :-s

[FBD]

:-k well,...I didnt see anything about the bait bikes being locked. if they arent that's fuggin entrapment.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

:-k well,...I didnt see anything about the bait bikes being locked. if they arent that's fuggin entrapment.

:-s


http://i.imgur.com/ZeOgKdk.png

:facepalm:

[perrhaps]

Isn't "entrapment" inducing an otherwise law-abiding individual to commit an illegal act by means of enticement that overcomes his/her sense of propriety?

Don't know about you, FBD, but when I walk down the street, I'm not tempted to steal anything I see, valuable or junk, whether it's locked or not.

[FBD]

ok....my question to you, then, is....do you guys view what the FBI and CIA do similarly where they "try to entrap" terrorists....by giving them material support and aid...



I have a sense of propriety. others...?

[DemonGeminiX]

Prove that they do, and even if they did, apples and oranges.

[FBD]

prove that they do? :lol: that aint exactly hidden knowledge, man.

easier to say "prove they lock every single one of these bikes"

[DemonGeminiX]

Look. All I'm gonna say is that what the SFPD is doing is perfectly legal. If people don't want to go to jail for theft, then they won't steal bikes. Simple.

[Acid Trip]

You guys are missing the entire argument the bleeding hearts are trying to make.

The value of the bikes are so high it is an automatic felony. The bleeding hearts think that is too harsh for stealing a bike.

[perrhaps]

You guys are missing the entire argument the bleeding hearts are trying to make.

The value of the bikes are so high it is an automatic felony. The bleeding hearts think that is too harsh for stealing a bike.

If the thieves are going to invest in a nice pair of bolt cutters, they're not going to waste time cutting locks attached to cheap bikes, now are they?

By the way, who carries bolt cutters around with them anyway? Budding locksmiths?

[FBD]

Look. All I'm gonna say is that what the SFPD is doing is perfectly legal. If people don't want to go to jail for theft, then they won't steal bikes. Simple.

nancy pelosi says obamacare is perfectly legal too. I'm sorry, I just have a problem with police doing things to entice and entrap citizens so that they can put 'em through the ringer and extract revenue from them. its like a double fuck you that they are making sure the value of the bikes is high enough so as to trigger a felony - so how much more in fines etc does the city get vs a misdemeanor?

follow the money, its all about "revenue." damn near the majority of police out there have no business carrying a badge and they prove it on a regular basis.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

nancy pelosi says obamacare is perfectly legal too. I'm sorry, I just have a problem with police doing things to entice and entrap citizens so that they can put 'em through the ringer and extract revenue from them. its like a double fuck you that they are making sure the value of the bikes is high enough so as to trigger a felony - so how much more in fines etc does the city get vs a misdemeanor?

follow the money, its all about "revenue." damn near the majority of police out there have no business carrying a badge and they prove it on a regular basis.

How in the world is having a locked bike out in public 'enticing' someone to steal it? Either you're a fucking thief or you aren't, there's no grey area here. Comparing Obamacare to bicycle thefts is asinine, I'm sorry.

If I park my locked truck out in public that happens to be equipped with a LoJack device that helps the cops disable and locate it, is that entrapment too if someone breaks into it and steals it?

[FBD]

no because its yours and you put the lojack in it. that's like saying I have a $10k bike, and I put my own GPS tracker in it, and call the cops and they find it when it gets stolen.

in this case, the state goes and buys expensive bikes and leaves them locked to a bike rack for weeks on end until some motherfucker says "I've seen this bike here every day for the last month, completely unmoved, fuck it"...

and you dont call that entrapment? :lol: oooooookay.

you arent differentiating at all between people's private property and veritable abuses of the state. its amazing the things people just let wash under the bridge without a care, then all of a sudden are puzzled when civil liberties they themselves value a little more are trampled upon.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

So what you're saying is, if someone leaves something of theirs unmoved out in public for a certain period of time, even if it's locked up, then it's okay for someone to take it.

[FBD]

:hand: when did I say theft was ok? all I said was police entrapment is most certainly not ok. I'm just talking facts of reality, if something like a bike sits for months on end even if its locked then it is much more likely to get stolen. because if its been sitting there that long, then someone must not need it? does it bother you that I can put myself inside the mind of a criminal and explore the logic chain without subscribing to it?

you guys still havent explained how this isn't entrapment. :razz:

[Hal-9000]

interesting fun fact:

We tried to use some bolt cutters on a lock....lock was nothing fancy and the bolt cutters bent and did not come close to snipping the lock.


relating to thread content - if an object is sitting there locked or not, if you didn't pay for it and decide to take it...it's thievery

Police paid for those bikes and locks, some dude walks up and wants to take it he should be charged.

[Pony]

I'm sorry, I just have a problem with police doing things to entice and entrap Thieves and criminals so that they can put 'em through the ringer and extract revenue from them. its like a double fuck you that they are making sure the value of the bikes is high enough so as to trigger a felony - so how much more in fines etc does the city get vs a misdemeanor?


FTFY

And if a plainclothed cop was offering in advance $200 to steal the bike for him it would be enticement and entrapment. Simply leaving property in view is not, locked or otherwise. Prostitution/predator stings are WAY closer to being entrapment than this is.

[Hal-9000]

FTFY

And if a plainclothed cop was offering in advance $200 to steal the bike for him it would be enticement and entrapment. Simply leaving property in view is not, locked or otherwise. Prostitution/predator stings are WAY closer to being entrapment than this is.

my underwear are closer to entrapment than this story

[FBD]

so by that rationale, I guess mouse traps arent entrapment either :lol:


The key to entrapment is whether the idea for the commission or encouragement of the criminal act originated with the police or government agents instead of with the "criminal."

although california law permits police "providing opportunity"

which I feel is basically entrapment. what's the bike? bait. baiting is not somehow entrapment, then? :shrug: I guess if you guys say so...

[Pony]

The key to entrapment is whether the idea for the commission or encouragement of the criminal act originated with the police or government agents instead of with the "criminal."

Was it the cops idea for the criminal to steal the bike? no. Did the cop encourage him to steal the bike? no.

Thanks for winning the argument for us with that quote.

[Hal-9000]

in the truest sense of the word, the police paid for those bikes..

the criminal is then stealing the property of someone else

I mean c'mon :lol: the guy walking up to it knows he's stealing

[FBD]

did the cop provide the fertile ground and watering, but not the sunlight, for that plant to grow? that's all my point was. I hate underhanded police tactics, and this is one of them.

[Hal-9000]

I think that cops should hire real hookers to help when they charge johns to alleviate the ugly specter of entrapment

[FBD]

hey, I also think unmarked police cars are ostensible psychological warfare against the population :P

[Hal-9000]

hey, I also think unmarked police cars are ostensible psychological warfare against the population :P


:lol:


real example - up here we have check stops for drunk drivers. They NEVER publish locations or times. I read a story about some of you guys down there protesting check stops because your police didn't publish the intended locations..


kinda defeats the purpose :lol:

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Fuck em, they are thieves plain and simple. Why not get them for a felony if you are going to make the effort, make it count

[FBD]

drunk checks get around by word of mouth pretty quickly here

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Fuck em, they are thieves plain and simple. Why not get them for a felony if you are going to make the effort, make it count

:agreed:

[PorkChopSandwiches]

drunk checks get around by word of mouth pretty quickly here

What does that mean

[FBD]

it means you get a text from a friend saying hey, go this way home instead of that way, just drove by a checkpoint

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Yeah, by law (in CA anyway) they have to list them in the paper before hand, but boy do they make it difficult to find. Ran into one a couple months ago, I hadnt been drinking yet, but what I found funny was they set it up right after a major intersection, so as long as you were paying attention you could have gone and made a right or a left, legally and gone right around it :lol:

[Hal-9000]

Yeah, by law (in CA anyway) they have to list them in the paper before hand, but boy do they make it difficult to find. Ran into one a couple months ago, I hadnt been drinking yet, but what I found funny was they set it up right after a major intersection, so as long as you were paying attention you could have gone and made a right or a left, legally and gone right around it :lol:

well that's why we don't list them

you could bring up google maps, drink your face off and plot your course home accordingly :lol:

[PorkChopSandwiches]

well that's why we don't list them

you could bring up google maps, drink your face off and plot your course home accordingly :lol:

They should be illegal anyway, if you are driving over the limit and obeying all the laws, then WTF. You should not be stopped for no violation just to be checked out, its bullshit. I think I read they may have given up on them in my town since it costs so much and the ROI is shit. I think they got 1 DUI last time.

[Hal-9000]

I went to the drive in, was smoking some weed and drove home into a checkstop..


the road is right by here (my work) and kind of a downwards funnel where you can't see over the grade...

cops made us pull in diagonally and my cop had to jump back a little because I almost ran over his foot pulling in :lol:


I rattled off the movies I had seen, showed him a big drive coke cup and he let me go....beside my cup was a pipe and rather large bag of chiba :lol:

[Muddy]

Dont steal the bike = dont get charged with a felony.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

They should be illegal anyway, if you are diving over the limit and obeying all the laws, then WTF. You should not be stopped for no violation just to be checked out, its bullshit. I think I read they may have given up on them in my town since it costs so much and the ROI is shit. I think they got 1 DUI last time.

Really? It's big business in metro Denver, their annual "Heat Is On" DUI enforcement campaign started last weekend with Memorial Day and runs thru Labor Day. There are multiple checkpoints throughout the city all weekend long every weekend.

[FBD]

:lol: and what do you think the ROI is on these bikes, porky?

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Dont steal the bike = dont get charged with a felony.

Exactly....it really is that simple

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Really? It's big business in metro Denver, their annual "Heat Is On" DUI enforcement campaign started last weekend with Memorial Day and runs thru Labor Day. There are multiple checkpoints throughout the city all weekend long every weekend.

I just mean in the town I live in, they were running them once or twice a month for a while. Im sure the ones in LA are still running strong.

[Muddy]

Really? It's big business in metro Denver, their annual "Heat Is On" DUI enforcement campaign started last weekend with Memorial Day and runs thru Labor Day. There are multiple checkpoints throughout the city all weekend long every weekend.

Isn't that the same as being harassed? Don't you need probable cause in this country? Random checks are no better than the Gurmans demanding "your paperss pleese!"

[PorkChopSandwiches]

:lol: and what do you think the ROI is on these bikes, porky?

Well, it sounds like they are getting the bikes back, and it also sounds like a lot of people were/are having their bikes stolen. So sounds like a win to me.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Isn't that the same as being harassed? Don't you need probable cause in this country? Random checks are no better than the Gurmans demanding "your paperss pleese!"

EXACTLY!!!!

[Hal-9000]

They should be illegal anyway, if you are diving over the limit and obeying all the laws, then WTF. You should not be stopped for no violation just to be checked out, its bullshit. I think I read they may have given up on them in my town since it costs so much and the ROI is shit. I think they got 1 DUI last time.

I don't agree....if you're driving drunk you're rolling the dice with other people's lives. Our checkstops are so infrequent they really don't stop or scare anyone into not driving drunk...we hear about a drunk driving crash at least once a week.

Last week a dude drove along a causeway bridge, hit the rail and got ejected from his car....it was 7 am... and really fucked up my commute :lol: He was something like .149 or close to death anyways for blood alcohol level

[FBD]

Well, it sounds like they are getting the bikes back, and it also sounds like a lot of people were/are having their bikes stolen. So sounds like a win to me.

any data on serial thieves, has this actually lessened the # of bikes (and I mean privately owned bikes) being stolen?

...and if this measure does jack shit for the # of bike thefts....what then?


continue it, of course, if you're joe jackboots...

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Isn't that the same as being harassed? Don't you need probable cause in this country? Random checks are no better than the Gurmans demanding "your paperss pleese!"

They get around that by publishing them in the paper...in very small print....on page 27C. But it's there, you just have to look for it.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

I don't agree....if you're driving drunk you're rolling the dice with other people's lives. Our checkstops are so infrequent they really don't stop or scare anyone into not driving drunk...we hear about a drunk driving crash at least once a week.

Last week a dude drove along a causeway bridge, hit the rail and got ejected from his car....it was 7 am... and really fucked up my commute :lol: He was something like .149 or close to death anyways for blood alcohol level

So then because one person may be driving over a criminally low BAC, everyone should be subject to illegal search

[FBD]

I don't agree....if you're driving drunk you're rolling the dice with other people's lives. Our checkstops are so infrequent they really don't stop or scare anyone into not driving drunk...we hear about a drunk driving crash at least once a week.

Last week a dude drove along a causeway bridge, hit the rail and got ejected from his car....it was 7 am... and really fucked up my commute :lol: He was something like .149 or close to death anyways for blood alcohol level
Back in the days when cops earned their fkn pay, they would patrol and find people driving not so straight and check them instead of pulling every. last. motherfucker. over.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

any data on serial thieves, has this actually lessened the # of bikes (and I mean privately owned bikes) being stolen?

...and if this measure does jack shit for the # of bike thefts....what then?


continue it, of course, if you're joe jackboots...

So what are you against in this situation

[Hal-9000]

So then because one person may be driving over a criminally low BAC, everyone should be subject to illegal search

Nawww, they ask you to roll down your window, ask you if you've been drinking and then assess from there. If you smell like booze or have red glazed eyes they ask you out of your car, ask you if you consent to a breathalyzer test and they perform one right there. I've never seen cops toss anyone's car in a checkstop.

IF...you are over .05 or .08, they take you downtown, impound your car and you pick it up later, or much later....depending on the charges. I know for a fact they don't rifle through your car because I've been with a few friends getting their vehicles back. One friend picked up his truck 3 days later at the impound lot and he showed me a 1/4 pound of hash behind the front seat :lol:

[FBD]

So what are you against in this situation

cops abusing their "authority" and treating "the limit on their authority" like I treat the speed limit being a mere suggestion.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

So what are you against in this situation

He's against the police doing their job...they should just hang out at the donut shop and let the theives steal everyone's bikes.

[Hal-9000]

you guys have the 'Denver Boot' down there?

Friend of mine was a raging alcoholic and near brilliant with things of a mechanical nature. He blew over one night, cops made him park his car and slapped the boot on. He went back about 4 hours later, removed the boot and drove home. Cops showed at his place the next day and said they wouldn't charge him if he showed them how he removed it :lol:

[FBD]

He's against the police doing their job...they should just hang out at the donut shop and let the theives steal everyone's bikes.

I'm against the police acting like a fkn protected class of above the law motherfuckers, that's what I'm against. Seen shit too many times, man. Its an inch here or there with some bullshit rationale tossed out and most people eat it up like chitlins because "its for their protection" afterall....


two words


MISSION CREEP

[Teh One Who Knocks]

you guys have the 'Denver Boot' down there?

Friend of mine was a raging alcoholic and near brilliant with things of a mechanical nature. He blew over one night, cops made him park his car and slapped the boot on. He went back about 4 hours later, removed the boot and drove home. Cops showed at his place the next day and said they wouldn't charge him if he showed them how he removed it :lol:

The city of Denver uses the boot, not so much in the burbs as far as I know.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

cops abusing their "authority" and treating "the limit on their authority" like I treat the speed limit being a mere suggestion.

I dont see how this is any of that.

[FBD]

cops are trained to get you to forego constitutional protections for a reason ;)

[PorkChopSandwiches]

I understand that, but how is that and this the same thing?

[Acid Trip]

Isn't that the same as being harassed? Don't you need probable cause in this country? Random checks are no better than the Gurmans demanding "your paperss pleese!"

Germans and papers...did you watch the 3 part series on the World Wars the last few nights?

[Lambchop]

As long as the list of criminals caught reads like the cast of a Tyler Perry movie, I'm in.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

:lol:

[Muddy]

Germans and papers...did you watch the 3 part series on the World Wars the last few nights?

I watched something on the wrecks off the coast of Normandy last night.