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Teh One Who Knocks
07-21-2014, 11:37 AM
BY David Harding - NEW YORK DAILY NEWS


http://i.imgur.com/g4O9Drz.jpg

The Russian government has reportedly been trying to tamper with the Wikipedia page relating to the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight tragedy.

A Twitter bot that keeps watch on Wikipedia pages edited by Moscow spotted major changes to an entry about the crash.

A Russian language page originally said that the plane was "shot down by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic.”

http://i.imgur.com/39M1OiD.jpg

This was subsequently changed to was "shot down by Ukrainian soldiers."

The edit was discovered by an automated Twitter account @RUGoveEdits, which keeps an eye on changes to Wikipedia made by the Russian government, reports The Telegraph.

So far, the Russian government has denied any responsibility for the crash that left 298 people dead.

Despite many pointing the finger at the Russian-backed rebels, Moscow said Ukraine bears "responsibility" for the tragedy.

President Obama said the passenger plane, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.

FBD
07-21-2014, 01:19 PM
Amazing all the news that is not even ON in this country.

So tell us, then, why did Ukranian airspace tell the plane to fly at 33,000 feet instead of its usual 55,000??? Why was the normal altitude 'restricted'??

'Splain that one to me, pseudo government in Kiev!!!

Loser
07-21-2014, 01:23 PM
Doesn't matter FBD, the rocket that shot down the plane could reach 75,000 feet and was radar guided.

DemonGeminiX
07-21-2014, 01:44 PM
I'm starting to think that FBD is Russian.


Russia should pay heavily for this whole shindig. Unfortunately, because they're a permanent member of the UN, it'll never happen.

perrhaps
07-21-2014, 02:23 PM
We should recall our ambassadors from Russia and boot theirs from here; bar Russian banks from our financial system, and discount natural gas we produce and sell it to Europe to replace Russian sales.

Would probably get better results than putting Secretary of State Kerry on the talk show circuit to orate the Russians to death.

FBD
07-21-2014, 02:26 PM
your math is a little off, loser

Reuters points out:


As Russia and Ukraine trade blame over the apparent shooting down of a Malaysian airliner, they appear to agree on one thing: the type of Soviet-era missile that brought it down.

But if an SA-11 Buk missile, known as “Gadfly” in NATO, struck the aircraft and killed all 298 on board, that won’t solve the mystery of who did it: Russia, Ukraine and Russian-speaking rebels have all claimed the missile in their arsenals.


BUK/SA-11 by the numbers:

Simultaneous targets (when used with radar and command post): 18

Slant range: 9800 meters 6.08 miles

Altitude: 22,000 metres 13.67 miles

Speed of rockets launched:3,000 km/hr

So since all sides seem to agree that this was an SA-11, it was close to impossible for the site they pointed the finger at to have shot this plane down. But it still seems that everyone wants to refuse to consider an air to air missile having taken this plane down...it seems the SA-11 was fingered as the obvious ground based method. The next step up in SA missile is much much more complex than the SA-11 buk system, I dont know how they ruled it out other than "no way the separatists had that setup." But the Russians know exactly what they sold to the Ukranian military. And many of the system's capabilities see boosted by some reports, what I quoted above was a little lower than what was on wiki's SA-11 page, for example.

Did you see the story about a Ukranian fighter jet getting shot down on the same day? (would not be surprised if you didnt.) Of course, the Russians were shooting down quite a few of Ukraine's military planes, on a regular basis. You dont hear that reported in our media here. You dont see the shit like Ukranian military shelling a town in eastern ukr and killing 60 people, like happened in the last couple days.


http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741521
Kiev’s evidence of militia’s responsibility for airliner crash faked - expert
“This audio recording is not an integral file and is made up of several fragments,” said Nikolai Popov, a reputable expert in sound and voice analysis.

and also consider that no actual information about the plane, its type, origin, flight # etc, are mentioned in that "recording."


Or if you consider that supposedly a plane carrying Putin was in a very similar window...

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/

The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putin’s airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another. Interfax quotes its source: “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”

I have not seen an official Russian denial, but according to news reports, the Russian government in response to the Interfax news report said that Putin’s presidential plane no longer flies the Ukraine route since the outbreak of hostilities.




So why then would Kiev do this...

BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

Because they dont want people to know that the air traffic controllers were directed to tell the plane to fly abnormally low.


As Star Tribune reports,

Rebels have recovered the black boxes from downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 and will hand them over to the International Civil Aviation Organization, a rebel leader said Sunday

and the "west?" (or would youo like me to just say, at the behest of the international banking cartel,)


The US is pushing the "Russia is responsible" meme harder this weekend...

The U.S. embassy in Kiev issued a strong statement Sunday pointing to Russian complicity in arming the rebels, saying it has concluded "that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine."



It said over the weekend of July 12-13, "Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles, including tanks armored personnel carriers artillery, and multiple rockets launchers" to the separatists. The statement also said Russia was training separatist fighters in southwest Russia, including on air defense systems.

And the rest of The West...

In a blistering article for the Sunday Times, British Prime Minister David Cameron called the attack a "direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them."



"We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action," he wrote.



In a coded rebuke of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and other European leaders who have blocked efforts to impose tougher sanctions on Russian President Vladimir Putin for Russia's actions in Ukraine, Cameron said Europe must now "respond robustly."



"For too long, there has been a reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine," Cameron wrote.



Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, speaking in Kiev, demanded that the culprits be found.



"Once we have the proof, we will not stop until the people are brought to justice





Here is Putin's speech from yesterday

And a transcript:

In connection with the terrible tragic events that happened in the skies over Donetsk, I would like to explain once again Russian attitude to events that are taking place in Ukraine.

We have repeatedly called on all parties of the conflict to immediately stop the bloodshed and sit down at the negotiating table. We strongly believe that if military action in the East of Ukraine was not renewed on the 28th of June, this tragedy most likely wouldn’t have happened. However, no one should have the right to use this tragedy to pursue egoistic political aims. Such events should unite and not divide people. It is necessary that all the people who are accounted for the situation in the region took more responsibility and reported to their own people and to the peoples of those countries whose representatives have become victims of this disaster.

Everything must be done to ensure the safety of international experts on the crash scene. Today representatives of Donbass, Donetsk, representatives of Ministry of Emergency Situations of Ukraine and Malaysian experts are already working there. But this is not enough. It is necessary to ensure that at the crash site works a full team of experts under the auspices of ICAO, the corresponding international commission. We must do everything to provide them with full and absolute security and all humanitarian corridors necessary for their operation.

In its turn, Russia will do everything possible to transfer the conflict in Eastern Ukraine from today's military phase to a discussion at the negotiating table, using exclusively peaceful and diplomatic means.


Now who seems like they want to do what?


















We're all being lied to, YET AGAIN. The information is out there, if you care to go look for it.

DemonGeminiX
07-21-2014, 02:28 PM
Putin's full of shit.

FBD
07-21-2014, 02:29 PM
I'm starting to think that FBD is Russian.


Russia should pay heavily for this whole shindig. Unfortunately, because they're a permanent member of the UN, it'll never happen.
:lol: my great grumps was from Kyiv, Russia...and refused to ever acknowledge the creation of the country of Ukraine. but that is entirely aside the point, because I am more interested in calling balls and strikes instead of making sure "my team" wins at any and all costs.

your second statement is *exactly* to a T what the intended reaction this propaganda was designed to elicit.

FBD
07-21-2014, 02:35 PM
and wrt the OP - anyone can edit a wiki entry when they see something that is obviously incorrect, right? that's been my experience with it, I went and rewrote some wiki postings on internal alchemy before.

DemonGeminiX
07-21-2014, 02:36 PM
So you are a Russian, you commie bastard!!!

:x




I sincerely believe that Putin and the Russian government is aiding the rebels in an attempt to regain the territories they lost when the Soviet Union fell. The Ukraine technically was never it's own country until '91, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be their own country now. But now, since our President is a fucking pussy, Mr Ex-KGB Putin feels there's no one to stop him from doing this duplicitous shit. It's their way. The Russians won't respect us because we're weaker, and everybody else is expecting us to be the world police to keep Russia in line.

FBD
07-21-2014, 02:52 PM
:lol: as it has been created, as it has been told...

I sincerely think that the international banking cartel believe any means will justify the ends of indebting any and all nations to them. You see what they have done to the US, to all these countries in europe...anyone that has gone against the petrodollar has been murdered, like saddam and khaddafi (brutal as they were, brutal only becomes a problem when they want gold for their oil instead of dollars...) and starting a war is not past them. All of these wars have been started by these people. This MH11 situation is an attempt at another Franz Ferdinand setup.

And as far as regaining territories for Russia, go look at the gas pipelines, that's all I gotta say. You think Ukraine, Crimea is strategic for no reason? 50 years of NATO containment strategy, hoss. You can see that, right?


After all the nefarious shit that our government has done...believing a story simply because "it was told by your side" is....how can I word this non offensively...

Critical thinking skills havent been taught in schools in forever for a reason.

Is there any other reason conceivable that Russia would do this? Is war some guarantee for them to "recover lost lands?" Not at all.

Is there any conceivable reason for US-EU-NATO-IMF alphabet soup to do this? Attack and isolate Russia as a containment strategy, who benefits from Russia losing their ability to get gas to the sea via those pipelines in ukraine and crimea???

ALWAYS ASK CUI BONO!!!! Who benefits from these actions?

You dont even see the atrocities committed by the figureheads installed in kiev, it is not reported - WHY....the media reports only what its told to!

I call them figureheads because I went and researched all the information about how this situation came about there. They are figureheads installed by a coup that nobody reported.

"serparatists" dont want to be under the IMF's thumb and have their grandchildren indebted to the international banking cartel? well hell we must eradicate them!!! I dont want my grandchildren indebted to them either, but I have no choice as it was already done long long ago.


Russians do not necessarily want to be "on the side" of the international banking cartel (even though they do significant business with them it appears...but then again, any country that does business...) and that's a bad thing? :lol: No, no. It is a good thing, trust me.

It sucks when your leaders are on the wrong side of a conflict, pushing as hard as they can towards outright war, what do you do about it.

FBD
07-21-2014, 03:23 PM
Ukraine hasn’t said how it immediately knew rebels downed Malaysian plane, notes the Russian Foreign Ministry, as it unveils 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and perhaps the US 'snap judgment') to answer about the MH17 disaster. However, what is perhaps more concerning for the hordes of finger-pointers is that:

RUSSIA HAS IMAGES OF UKRAINE DEPLOYING BUK ROCKETS IN EAST: IFX
RUSSIA: UKRAINE MOVED BUK NEAR REBELS IN DONETSK JULY 17: IFX
RUSSIA DETECTED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER JET PICK UP SPEED TOWARD MH17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSpeo5RcQQo

Russia wants to know why Ukraine moved its BUK missiles systems the day of the MH17 crash:

RUSSIAN GENERAL STAFF HAS SPACE IMAGES OF SECTORS OF UKRAINIAN FORCES' POSITIONS IN SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE, INCLUDING BUK MISSILE LUNCH SITES 8 KILOMETERS FROM LUHANSK - RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY - interfax

The day the Malaysian airliner crashed, the Ukrainian forces deployed an air defense group of three or four Buk-M1 missile batteries near Donetsk, Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Russian General Staff's Main Operations Department, told reporters on Monday.IMHO Lugansk is also out of the correct range for an SA-11 attack...



"These surface-to-air systems are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 35 kilometers at an altitude of 22 kilometers. For what purpose and against whom were these missile systems deployed? As is known, the militia has no aviation," he said.

Russia has the flight paths of the Ukrainian fighters and MH17. Furthermore, it is asking the same question we asked last Thurday:

RUSSIA SAYS MH17 DIVERGED 14 KM FROM FLIGHT PATH NEAR DONETSK

And wants to know why. The image (as seen in the presentation above) allegedly shows Ukraine fighter jets near MH17:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/07/Russia%20press%20conference%20screengrab_0.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/Su%2025%20vs%20MH%2017.png



“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.



“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.



“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”



The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.


I did say air to air, right :lol: that was just by my own logic.



And asks for US proof of their accusations:

RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"




10 questions for the Ukranian gov:




1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?



2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes?



3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work?



4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles?



5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission?



6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?



7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation?



8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?



9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data?



10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed guilt official Kiev



now enough of these emotional based decisions and appeals, let's get some fuggin facts going on here. who's got the substantive things to say, the substantive questions, and who has information they are keeping secret?


that tells you all you need to know,

alllllmost as much as simply watching tower #7 tells you all you need to know about whether the government's story on 9-11 was fabricated or not ;)

perrhaps
07-21-2014, 03:50 PM
Once again, how are you related to Sertes?

PorkChopSandwiches
07-21-2014, 04:04 PM
:lol:

FBD
07-21-2014, 04:24 PM
how am I related :lol: the only similarity I know of is that we've both concluded the US government is a criminal enterprise that planned and executed 9-11. from the molten metal pouring out of the middle of the tower (jet fuel does not burn hot enough, simple as that) to 7 just dropping in a blatantly controlled demolition (which led me to conclude this was 93's destination had it not been interrupted....those people didnt know that by taking action they foiled the government and produced a smoking gun)...to the hole in the pentagon that just does not have any impact zone for a plane engine/wings to have hit...

sorry fellas if you still believe the 9-11 story...please examine the bias in your judgement. I did, it took me quite a few years to accept the fact, but the evidence is irrefutable if you examine it without prejudgement or heart based belief that "something like that couldn't happen."

:dance:

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 05:21 PM
So what about all of the debunking 911 vids and articles?

If the US government is willing to kill 3000 innocent souls to further an agenda, don't you think they'd take a less complex direction? As in, a lot of pegs had to line up that September morning for a conspiracy to work, including the piloting of commercial airliners into the Trade Center buildings. Because that did happen, no matter what tales conspiracy theorists want to postulate.

We have the Muslim hi-jackers training at flight centers, same group caught on cameras boarding the various planes, we have Bin Laden claiming responsibility - putting himself, his family and his high level coworkers in immediate jeopardy, we have multiple engineers saying that yes - 400 tons of jet fuel after an impact of that magnitude would definitely weaken a 40 year old structure..

Teh One Who Knocks
07-21-2014, 05:22 PM
So what about all of the debunking 911 vids and articles?

If the US government is willing to kill 3000 innocent souls to further an agenda, don't you think they'd take a less complex direction? As in, a lot of pegs had to line up that September morning for a conspiracy to work, including the piloting of commercial airliners into the Trade Center buildings. Because that did happen, no matter what tales conspiracy theorists want to postulate.

We have the Muslim hi-jackers training at flight centers, same group caught on cameras boarding the various planes, we have Bin Laden claiming responsibility - putting himself, his family and his high level coworkers in immediate jeopardy, we have multiple engineers saying that yes - 400 tons of jet fuel after an impact of that magnitude would definitely weaken a 40 year old structure..

Don't you dare try and bring logic and common sense into a crazy conspiracy theory :nono:

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 05:27 PM
:hand: The Evil Dead not getting best picture Oscar in 1981 was a conspiracy...911 was a tragedy committed by Al-Qaeda, not Al-Gore

FBD
07-21-2014, 06:11 PM
So what about all of the debunking 911 vids and articles?

If the US government is willing to kill 3000 innocent souls to further an agenda, don't you think they'd take a less complex direction? As in, a lot of pegs had to line up that September morning for a conspiracy to work, including the piloting of commercial airliners into the Trade Center buildings. Because that did happen, no matter what tales conspiracy theorists want to postulate.

We have the Muslim hi-jackers training at flight centers, same group caught on cameras boarding the various planes, we have Bin Laden claiming responsibility - putting himself, his family and his high level coworkers in immediate jeopardy, we have multiple engineers saying that yes - 400 tons of jet fuel after an impact of that magnitude would definitely weaken a 40 year old structure..

:hand:

do you also recall bin laden saying he was going to reveal the truth to the american people and it would shock the hell out of them? Why do you think he was immediately killed, and KSM's point of view was NEVER released to the public because "its all classified?" (well...what is so classified? what is so damaging that such information cannot be known by the general public, only high level government and military officials are allowed to see such info?)

regardless of how you want to bring these factors together - the fact remains that there is a smoking gun in comparing the demolition of 7 to the "official government sanctioned story of HERE IS TEH TROOF," so honestly the rest of these logistics are trivial.

if the gub had nothing to hide then why did they put out a blatant lie as the official truth of what happened? go in the conspiracy thread and watch the vid I just posted and you tell me that is not a demolition ;)

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 06:14 PM
:hand:

do you also recall bin laden saying he was going to reveal the truth to the american people and it would shock the hell out of them? Why do you think he was immediately killed, and KSM's point of view was NEVER released to the public because its all classified?

regardless of how you want to bring these factors together - the fact remains that there is a smoking gun in comparing the demolition of 7 to the "official government sanctioned story of HERE IS TEH TROOF," so honestly the rest of these logistics are trivial.

Immediately killed?


Over 10 years later??


[-( he could have sent a few carrier pigeons in that time

FBD
07-21-2014, 06:16 PM
:lol: immediately, as in, the instant one of our forces saw him, there was a bullet in his head


by presidential direction, no less

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 06:18 PM
:hand:

do you also recall bin laden saying he was going to reveal the truth to the american people and it would shock the hell out of them? Why do you think he was immediately killed, and KSM's point of view was NEVER released to the public because "its all classified?" (well...what is so classified? what is so damaging that such information cannot be known by the general public, only high level government and military officials are allowed to see such info?)

regardless of how you want to bring these factors together - the fact remains that there is a smoking gun in comparing the demolition of 7 to the "official government sanctioned story of HERE IS TEH TROOF," so honestly the rest of these logistics are trivial.

if the gub had nothing to hide then why did they put out a blatant lie as the official truth of what happened? go in the conspiracy thread and watch the vid I just posted and you tell me that is not a demolition ;)


Because one building fell that wasn't struck by a plane...which sat less that 4 city blocks from the destruction that did occur that day...and that's the smoking gun that says the rest of it was a fabrication?


:lol: you're losing me mate

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 06:20 PM
:lol: immediately, as in, the instant one of our forces saw him, there was a bullet in his head


by presidential direction, no less

so he had a bombshell of a secret and couldn't get word or proof out the masses within a 10 year span?


pretty thin dude :lol: he could have exonerated himself from being the worst mass murderer in history by sending one video to Reuters or getting a letter out via his helpers

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 06:22 PM
:lol: immediately, as in, the instant one of our forces saw him, there was a bullet in his head


by presidential direction, no less

Did you read the SEAL's book or watch The 60 Minutes special on how things went down in that compound...pretty scary and interesting stuff.

FBD
07-21-2014, 06:24 PM
Hal, you have to have seen controlled demolitions before, no? it is a science. The slightest fuckup and the building does not drop in its own footprint, it tips over unevenly.

Are you trying to tell me that some office fires - and remember, no substantial pieces of 1 or 2 hit 7 - made this building drop perfectly in its own footprint???

This is OT for this thread...so if it is desired to continue this in the conspiracy corner, I can respect that.

FBD
07-21-2014, 06:26 PM
so he had a bombshell of a secret and couldn't get word or proof out the masses within a 10 year span?


pretty thin dude :lol: he could have exonerated himself from being the worst mass murderer in history by sending one video to Reuters or getting a letter out via his helpers

It sounded like he eventually wanted to get it told but knew if he came right out and said so then the government had its story and would be immediately countered...I dont pretend to have all the answers but I can recognize a fake bullshit story when I've investigated it enough.

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 06:44 PM
Hal, you have to have seen controlled demolitions before, no? it is a science. The slightest fuckup and the building does not drop in its own footprint, it tips over unevenly.

Are you trying to tell me that some office fires - and remember, no substantial pieces of 1 or 2 hit 7 - made this building drop perfectly in its own footprint???

This is OT for this thread...so if it is desired to continue this in the conspiracy corner, I can respect that.


sounds good...too much of a tangent for the thread subject matter :thumbsup:

FBD
07-21-2014, 07:08 PM
Back to topic:


Jacob Dreizin, a US citizen who speaks Russian and reads Ukrainian provided this update three hours ago.

Hello Mish,



On Friday, the Daily Mail, one of the major UK tabloids carried photos and video of what was alleged to be a rebel “Buk” launcher heading back to Russia. The article carried a claim from some Ukrainian source that the launcher was missing several missiles after having shot them at the Malaysian 777. The article was prominently linked to the Drudge Report, and so was probably viewed by several million people.



Today, this meme made it into Uncle Sam’s official narrative, as per the following New York Times excerpt:



On the CBS program “Face the Nation,” Mr. Kerry referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with “a missing missile or so.”



The video referenced by the New York Times was, in fact, posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian Interior Minister. The allegation was that the launcher was crossing the border with Russia.



However, going by the billboard and other features of the scenery, Russian bloggers and news sources claim to have identified the road in the video as having been taken in or near the town of Krasnoarmeisk (“Krasnoarmiysk” in Ukrainian), which has been under Kiev’s control since May.



In fact, the billboard is supposedly advertising a Krasnoarmeisk car dealership. Also, one of the structures in the background is said to be a construction materials store on Gorkii Street, Krasnoarmeisk.



Please note that this town is (very roughly) 120 kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian 777 went down. And again, it has been under Kiev’s control since May.



At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on researching that one for you.



Jacob

so in other words, about as real as the AR-15 in sandy hook...a complete fabrication-media-suggestion.






It is beyond incredibly sloppy for Ukraine to release such a video with a clear billboard of something in Ukraine-held territory, purportedly showing a Buk missile launcher headed back to Russia.



And we are supposed to believe Kiev? Kerry?



Please be serious. If you are really interested in the truth, you do not resort to such easily disproved and sloppy bullsheet.

FBD
07-21-2014, 07:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw


And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

These are some of his crucial tweets:

"The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"
"If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"
"As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"
"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"
"The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"
"The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"

Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a d?tente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html:-k

FBD
07-21-2014, 07:21 PM
Russia 'Told Rebels To Hide MH17's Black Boxes'
http://news.sky.com/story/1304439/russia-told-rebels-to-hide-mh17s-black-boxes



more evidence that video was a fake


Quelling some conspiracies - though we are sure more will come on 'tampering' - the Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak issued a statement confirming it has reached an agreement on the MH17 investigation...

MALAYSIA SAYS BLACK BOXES TO BE HANDED OVER TO MALAYSIAN TEAM

Of course, this means the "credibility" of the latest YouTube clip from Ukraine, which "supposedly" revealed that the "rebels" were instructed by Moscow to hide the black boxes will be severly questioned, or would be if there was anyone out there still questioning anything in the relentless propaganda barrage. Actually scratch that: said clip will now promptly disappear from social networks, period.

As AP reports,

Malaysia's prime minister reaches deal with rebel leader to allow "safe access" to crash site.

Furthermore,

MALAYSIA SAYS IT HAS ESTABLISHED AGREEMENT ON MH17 BODIES
MALAYSIA SAYS BODIES TO LEAVE FOR THE NETHERLANDS

The timing of the handover of the black boxes is 9pm Ukraine time.

FBD
07-21-2014, 07:24 PM
what was that again about russia pointing out the fact that US satellites were overhead at the time...

http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/

Whistleblower: U.S. Satellite Images Show Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR5HtzbMy-E



"Proof of a cover-up is proof of a conspiracy"

FBD
07-21-2014, 07:30 PM
Obligatory Obama admin response :


White House spokesman Josh Earnest says Russia's denials of complicity in MH17 downing are 'getting more desperate and harder to believe'

:lol: and who says Progressives dont live in in backwards land

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 08:26 PM
what was that again about russia pointing out the fact that US satellites were overhead at the time...

http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/

Whistleblower: U.S. Satellite Images Show Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR5HtzbMy-E



"Proof of a cover-up is proof of a conspiracy"


it's a bunch of text with quotes by "the source" :lol:

and they go on to say that the Ukraine troops were possibly undisciplined and drunk, because of beer bottles scattered about.....this from a satellite image????


:rofl: that's a whole lot of conjecture with no actual proof quite similar to - Lindsay Lohan wears no panties on Thursdays...a 'source' close to Lindsay reports :lol:

FBD
07-21-2014, 08:27 PM
:lol: oh, if only yall gave the same level of scrutiny to all sides

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 08:31 PM
I'm simply looking at the evidence put before me...I have no opinion either way BEFOREHAND, which makes me an excellent forensic investigator :thumbsup:

redred
07-21-2014, 08:32 PM
we need something from zerohedge i refuse to believe this has even happened till i see something from tyler durden :lol:

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 08:35 PM
as long as a Canadian didn't pull the trigger...I remain neutral

Pony
07-21-2014, 08:52 PM
as long as a Canadian didn't pull the trigger...I remain neutral

So.... you're denying any involvement? You're trying to tell me it's NOT a plot by Canada to weaken the US to the point you could launch a successful invasion?

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 08:56 PM
So.... you're denying any involvement? You're trying to tell me it's NOT a plot by Canada to weaken the US to the point you could launch a successful invasion?

Hey just because your dodgy satellite imagery shows what appears to be some empty Tim Hortons coffee cups and leftover poutine on paper plates, does NOT mean that Canucks launched that missile.

Besides, where large armaments are concerned we Canadians get anxiety attacks just looking at pictures!! :x :x

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 08:56 PM
..and we would have apologized afterwards [-(

DemonGeminiX
07-21-2014, 09:01 PM
Hahahahaha

:lol:

FBD
07-21-2014, 09:05 PM
The trouble with exposing false flags is that they conflict too dramatically with the narrative that comprises the world for most people.


Evidence?

Ukraine announces immediately after the fact they know who did it - with no evidence. This is immediately parroted all over.

They show a clip of missiles being driven around and say see, this is returning to russia - and stupidly include billboards from solidly kiev controlled areas, undermining that entire portion of their story.

A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted (http://pt.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK) 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower? Also why did Kiev controlled air traffic controllers tell them to fly 20,000 feet lower than usual? Kiev has confiscated the evidence.

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/breaking-part-ii-evidence-continues-to-emerge-mh17-is-a-false-flag-operation/

Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on.

And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

The distance from the point of launch to the point of the fall is 37 kilometres. At the same time, the elevation of the plane was 10-11 kilometres. For the Russian BUK M2 this distance is, in fact, achievable (although with a very important caveat discussed below).

The thing is that most short to medium range Anti-Aircraft systems work extremely poorly in a “pursuit” mode. There are a number of reasons for this, and I do not intend to belabor the point, but you can take it as an axiom that when the launch is made in “pursuit” of the target, the maximum distance of the launch that successfully hits the target is at least half of the advertised maximum distance (in reality, it even worse, but let’s leave aside the sad part). Accordingly, the real distance of a “pursuit” launch for BUK M1 is 16 kilometres. What’s more, the last 3 kilometres are purely “God willing” and “without guarantees.”

And, so, we have the background. Let’s see how the picture unfolds:

The launch is alleged to have been made from Chernukhino. The maximum distance of the launch is 16 kilometres. The aircraft fell between Snezhnoye and Torez. That’s 37 kilometres, which is 20 kilometres more than the maximum possible point at which the plain could have been hit. You know, even a plane with turned-off engines can’t glide like that. But the trouble is that the aircraft was not whole.

According to the pattern of the spread of fuselage fragments and bodies, the plane was ruptured practically with the first shot. Here it must be mentioned that the high-explosive/fragmentation warhead of the rocket has a mass of approximately 50 kilograms (by the way, Ukrainians have an outdated modification, which is only 40 kilograms).

Overall, that’s not too little; however, it must be understood that it detonates not when it sticks into an airplane, but when it is still at a certain, and fairly significant distance. Moreover, the main strike factor is not the blast wave, but far more significantly – the stream of fragments. These fragments are previously prepared rods (and in the earlier versions – little cubes, if I recall correctly). And yes, for a jet fighter, that, in itself, is more than sufficient.

However, here we are dealing with a huge airliner. Yes, one rocket will rip the casing, cause depressurization, and will kill a lot of passengers. But it will not break up the airliner into pieces. Given certain conditions, the pilots may even be able to land it. And, in fact, there have been precedents (to be provided in future posts). For example – the very same An-28, which is alleged to have been the first victim of a BUK system; even though it was done for, but the crew was able to successfully catapult out. Which, in some way, symbolizes. An An-28, by the way, is far smaller than a Boeing.

Nevertheless, this has relation to the next part of our analysis. For now, let’s accept as a fact the break-up of the aircraft in the air, at a significant height (which is, in essence, what was observed. Allow me to remind you: “fragments spread over a radius of 15 kilometres.” The key here is that this means the following: the aircraft (or, more precisely, the core of the aircraft) fell literally at the point where the rocket impacted it. Clarifying: as soon as the aircraft turned into a host of fragments of different mass, the separation of these fragments began due to air resistance and the difference in inertia. The densest fragment flew a further 3-6 kilometres, falling more and more steeply. The lightest – spread out and, due to gliding and air currents, fell somewhere within a 10 kilometre radius. The medium ones (primarily pieces of casing with high sail-effect and the victims’ bodies) – fell almost vertically.

In other words, the rocket caught up to the plane no closer than 25 kilometres away from Chernukhino. Which is absolutely impossible for a BUK system.

Carlos the air traffic controller appears to be real
An Industry Outlet Confirms Carlos (@spainbuca) as ATC at Borispol Airport in Kiev

Original: EturboNews (ETN Global Travel Industry News) – July 17, 2014

ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

Not to mention, the US missile defense satellites that we paid so much for were right overhead at the time of this. Where is the data? US? Hello? nothing??


And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.


The preventing of Russian gas getting to the sea there via crimea/ukraine would hit the russians very hard in the pocket.


So who has motive, again?

Who has evidence, again?

Who has pointed the finger and at the same time withheld evidence?

How much more do you need to figure out which "side" committed this act?

FBD
07-21-2014, 09:08 PM
we need something from zerohedge i refuse to believe this has even happened till i see something from tyler durden :lol:

:lol: pardon my need to go to sources that are not bought and paid for and only present what they are told to.

yall didnt hear about the 60 people killed by kiev's shelling a town in eastern ukraine over the weekend...right, that doesnt fit with the narrative...

all the mainstream news outlets are corporate controlled garbage.

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 09:13 PM
"...since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared"

I find this interesting/damning


Judging by the evidence posted above, yes it does appear that the Ukrainians are behind it.

FBD
07-21-2014, 09:15 PM
thanks for restoring a bit of my faith in humanity, hal :lol: now go say the same thing about 7 and I'll feel good for the whole rest of the day :dance:

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 09:20 PM
To be fair, most of the evidence is flimsy and conjecture that can't be proven. I also know that when that happens, it's a sure sign that someone is covering up an action.


In a pure world, people would be put on trial for the deaths of 300 civilians. It seems that in this instance, evidence is so loose and 'unattainable', that an entity will be held accountable because the act so large, and coverup done so poorly.

FBD
07-21-2014, 09:32 PM
I am of the opinion that everyone (relevant) is simply going to maintain their views on this matter and nothing will change. US gov, Nato, Ukraine, Russia, etc, etc.

But you dont fake stuff like this, you can only ask why and who was the controlling authority...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtEvpqpIEAEiX2B.jpg:large
no? ok how bout this
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtEvpqpIEAEiX2B.jpg
no? cripes.
https://twitter.com/MilitaryMaps/status/491226227328696320/photo/1


In terms of exposed overt lies, the only party (that I am aware of) that can be *proven guilty* is Kiev, since they denied they had any Buks in the area....already proven false...

as far as the CIA....well, who knows, wouldnt surprise me, but their operations are so secretive....of course it is for a reason...

Pony
07-21-2014, 09:41 PM
Hey just because your dodgy satellite imagery shows what appears to be some empty Tim Hortons coffee cups and leftover poutine on paper plates, does NOT mean that Canucks launched that missile.

Besides, where large armaments are concerned we Canadians get anxiety attacks just looking at pictures!! :x :x

Inside tip...

Ya'll could probably take Detroit pretty easily and with minimum casualties, them fuckers can't hit anything.

FBD
07-21-2014, 10:02 PM
now what the fk?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE_REBEL_COMMANDER?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-18-14-22-48

Rebel leader gives bizarre account of plane crash

MOSCOW (AP) -- A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash - suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 was shot down Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard. The plane was flying 10,000 meters above an area where Ukrainian forces have been fighting separatist rebels. Each side accuses the other of downing the plane.

U.S. intelligence authorities said a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane, and U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power told the U.N. Security Council in New York on Friday that the missile was likely fired from a rebel-held area near the Russian border.

Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.

Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."

He claimed that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found in the wreckage.

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 10:05 PM
someone jacked the dead bodies for hemoglobin????


no way :lol:

FBD
07-21-2014, 10:15 PM
http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/kiev-behind-malaysian-flight-shoot-down/

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/militias-do-not-have-ukrainian-buk-missile-system-ukraine-general-prosecutor/5391968



from everything I'm reading, its sounding like the ukranian military is getting their asses handed to them in battle in terms of deaths and casualties.

Hal-9000
07-21-2014, 10:25 PM
FBD I guess you never watched Lost as you were Amish growing up..

In it, a rich faction went to the trouble and expense of putting a downed jetliner under the ocean, complete with over 200 corpses...

Fiction of course but your recent news post was a little on the creepy side :lol:

FBD
07-21-2014, 10:27 PM
I saw some of Lost when my pos ex was here and netflix existed :tup: after a while that show just got stupid and I stopped watching it.


want to see what the kiev army is doing in eastern ukr? graphic warning. civilian graphic warning. this is the shit I'm talking about that they simply refuse to report over here.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-air-force-bombs-civilians-crimes-against-humanity-in-lugansk-oblast/5389698

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/1497403/1497403_900.jpg

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/1498034/1498034_900.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WC0V_WXyvc

FBD
07-22-2014, 02:46 PM
Oooh! Look, the US finally released....what the fuck do you even call this? :haha:

CNN reports that the US government has released a satellite trajectory map of what it says was the flight's path and the site from which the missile was shot

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/07/20140722_MH17_0.jpg

the image is an old map, Copyright 2010. this is NOT evidence. this is a drawing of what someone thinks occurred. it doesnt even show the change in direction of the MH11's flight path.


might as well have been a crayon drawing.

DemonGeminiX
07-22-2014, 03:00 PM
Dude, the Russian-backed separatists shot down this plane. In all likelihood, with Mother Russia's blessing. End of story.

Teh One Who Knocks
07-22-2014, 06:55 PM
Re-opened and moved.

PorkChopSandwiches
07-22-2014, 08:19 PM
:tinfoil:

FBD
07-23-2014, 11:38 AM
Enjoy watching the state department basically admit that their "evidence" is based on youtube and social media posts :razz:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok


Lee begins by asking Harf how the U.S. plans to produce “forensic evidence” proving Russian-backed rebels were behind the attack, to which Hard responds by reeling off talking points before stating, “we know, we saw in social media afterwards….of the pro-Russian separatists bragging about shooting down an aircraft.”

“How is it exactly that you know it was fired from separatist held territory?” asks Lee, to which Harf responds that the evidence is based on “communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government.”

“Is there anything other….than social media?” asks Lee. Harf alludes to an “assessment,” before again reeling off talking points (based on social media and YouTube videos) that blame separatist rebels.

“All you’re willing to present publicly that backs up your version of the story, which may well be the correct version of the story,” states Lee before being interrupted by Harf who sardonically retorts, “may well be.”

“I haven’t seen your evidence that shows that the missile was launched from rebel held territory,” continues Lee. “The only thing you’re willing to put out publicly is the social media accounts,” he adds, before citing other social media accounts that dispute the State Department’s version of events.

Harf asserts that any version of events that challenges the State Department’s version (based again on social media posts) is “illogical.” Lee states that the State Department’s evidence would not stand up to an international investigation.

“The Russians have said we’ve put out our radar images which show this Ukrainian plane near at least….why don’t you put out your…,” states Lee before again being interrupted by Harf.

FBD
07-23-2014, 11:41 AM
or basically,

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/USevidenceMH17.jpg


...kinda like they tried to pin those chemical weapons usage on the Syrian gov last year when all the proof pointed to .....

the....people....we....were....running....guns.... to.....

FBD
07-23-2014, 06:03 PM
If you're interested in the perspective from the russians, this is pretty spot on. (I dont know who gave this vid its title but that's not really what I got out of what was said)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWT5HM_NMlI



the only thing I really disagree with is you can replace their concept of "america" with "international banking cartel" because the US government is bought & paid for already and no longer functions for the USA, it functions for the international banking cartel and the major global corporations.


like I said before, look at the gas pipes and where they go and its pretty plain that this whole coup in Ukraine was intended to give the russians massive financial problems by way of natural gas (and notice how much more we've been exporting lately?) and fulfill the post WW2 russian containment strategy.

redred
07-23-2014, 06:34 PM
Whitehall sources say information has emerged that MH17 crash evidence was deliberately tampered with, as the plane's black boxes arrive in the UK.

The sources said this included moving bodies and scattering the parts of other aircraft among the wreckage of the downed Malaysia Airlines plane.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch in Farnborough has received the flight voice and data recorders for analysis.

All 298 people on board were killed in the crash in Ukraine on 17 July.

They included 10 Britons on the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Missile launch
Whitehall sources also told the BBC that pro-Russian rebels are believed to have discussed plans to hand MH17's two black box flight recorders to Russia.

It is understood that some of these conversations were intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence; the information is considered to be "very persuasive".

Intelligence has also been obtained which strongly indicates that the plane was shot down by an SA-11 BUK missile launched from a separatist-held area in eastern Ukraine.

British accident investigators are attempting to retrieve data from the recorders following a request by authorities in the Netherlands.

The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the investigation, said "valid data" had been downloaded from MH17's cockpit voice recorder (CVR) which will be "further analysed".

The board said: "The CVR was damaged but the memory module was intact. Furthermore no evidence or indications of manipulation of the CVR was found."

Investigators will examine the other black box, the flight data recorder (FDR), on Thursday.

redred
07-23-2014, 06:34 PM
Whitehall sources say information has emerged that MH17 crash evidence was deliberately tampered with, as the plane's black boxes arrive in the UK.

The sources said this included moving bodies and scattering the parts of other aircraft among the wreckage of the downed Malaysia Airlines plane.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch in Farnborough has received the flight voice and data recorders for analysis.

All 298 people on board were killed in the crash in Ukraine on 17 July.

They included 10 Britons on the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Missile launch
Whitehall sources also told the BBC that pro-Russian rebels are believed to have discussed plans to hand MH17's two black box flight recorders to Russia.

It is understood that some of these conversations were intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence; the information is considered to be "very persuasive".

Intelligence has also been obtained which strongly indicates that the plane was shot down by an SA-11 BUK missile launched from a separatist-held area in eastern Ukraine.

British accident investigators are attempting to retrieve data from the recorders following a request by authorities in the Netherlands.

The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the investigation, said "valid data" had been downloaded from MH17's cockpit voice recorder (CVR) which will be "further analysed".

The board said: "The CVR was damaged but the memory module was intact. Furthermore no evidence or indications of manipulation of the CVR was found."

Investigators will examine the other black box, the flight data recorder (FDR), on Thursday.

FBD
07-23-2014, 07:01 PM
weird duplicates have been happening when I click edit

FBD
07-23-2014, 07:01 PM
It is understood that some of these conversations were intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence; the information is considered to be "very persuasive".

they've already proved that those "very persuasive" conversations were edited pieces of older conversation;

the "smoking gun" that kiev said was a M1 battery returning to russia has been outed as being from well inside keiv controlled territory due to local scenery and billboards that were included in the shots they gave out as evidence (in fact, still no actual shots of separatists actually having M1 BUK systems, the russians said they havent provided them with any, separatists say they dont have any, their SAMs are all much smaller and less complex);

the russians gave a million times the detail of anyone else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs
http://rack.2.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA3LzIyL2VkL1J1c3NpYU1IMTdSLmI3NWQ2LmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/6b26ca77/df4/Russia-MH17-Route-Map.jpg
details which were from the actual radar shots of its flight path, unlike what the US released showing basically a straight line trajectory to the crash site by MH-11,
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/07/20140722_MH17_0.jpg

:shrug:

So is London going to release the conversation between the MH11 pilots and the Ukranian control tower, which was stormed by Ukranian military forces and all of the conversations confiscated?

Also, what's 500 Blackwater employees doing in Ukraine,

Why were over 200 US military personnel who are normally stationed in Germany - in Ukraine at the time of the shootdown?

As has been the case lately when we've seen a false flag operation carried out, "training exercises" this time in the form of U.S. BREEZE and RAPID TRIDENT II operations in the Black Sea...





The first thing a prosecutor attempts to determine is motive...

FBD
07-23-2014, 07:09 PM
Or maybe Hitlery is right, refusing to even consider that it WASNT the separatists, because "all the weapons came from russia, we all know this" nevermind that the vast majority of the Ukranian military's weapons are all russian made...

oh, and then she goes on to talk about the gas situation....bingo! The IMF and world bank wont have their BRICS competition if Russia is hurting in the pocket so badly that they cant conjure the steam to make the BRICS bank happen.

She lets it slip right there, they are trying desperately to somehow get Europe off of Russia's gas, talking about the Russians screwing with the flow of it and such...nevermind how lenient the russians have actually been with Ukraine on this, it was only when Ukraine started taking a hard stance that russia said "ok, well....if its going to be like that, there is this small matter of the billions of dollars you are behind to us in payments..."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkTRJgDkNFg

FBD
07-24-2014, 01:08 AM
hah...

"if the fact that russia produced those missiles at some point somehow implicates putin, what does that say about who's responsible for all the shia soldiers that ISIL is shooting in the back of the head?"

FBD
07-24-2014, 04:18 PM
*UKRANIAN PM YATSENYUK RESIGNS
*YATSENYUK SAYS HE RESIGNS BECAUSE OF COALITION COLLAPSE
*YATSENYUK SAYS HE WON'T CALL FOR A NEW COALITION
*YATSENYUK SAYS HE RESIGNS ALSO BECAUSE GOVT LAWS FAILED TO PASS
*UKRAINE SPEAKER TURCHYNOV CALLS FOR INTERIM PREMIER

I'm sure the collapsing of governmental affairs in the Ukraine is mere coincidence ;)

Muddy
07-24-2014, 04:19 PM
Sertes you are flipping out in here...

FBD
07-24-2014, 04:41 PM
copy/paste :dance:

its current news...much of which is still being hashed out....amidst everyone pointing the fingers at everyone else. the only provable lies we've seen so far have come from the ukranian government, and curiously little has been said by the US, despite the positions we were in to be able to say some things with some relative certainty.

there's just too many fishy things having happened here especially from kiev's standpoint here.

the black box should show the flight path and those audio recordings between the tower and the plane - if neither of those are revealed, then you can bet your ass it was a false flag setup and not just separatists thinking they were shooting down a uke supply transport.

FBD
07-27-2014, 03:10 PM
another duplicate

FBD
07-27-2014, 03:11 PM
Recall what we said earlier today: the proxy Ukraine war just like that in Syria preceding it, "is all about energy (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-25/first-syrian-rebels-now-hamas-qatar-once-again-emerges-mystery-us-backed-sponsor-war)."

Recall also the following chart (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-27/ukraine-deep-state-analysis)showing Ukraine's shale gas deposits, keeping in mind that the Dnieper-Donets basin (http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volume-111/issue-02/regular-features/journally-speaking/ukraine-eying-shale-gas.html)which lies in the hotly contested eastern part of the nation and where as everyone knows by now a bloody civil war is raging, is the major oil and gas producing region of Ukraine accounting for approximately 90 per cent of Ukrainian production and according to EIA (http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volume-111/issue-02/regular-features/journally-speaking/ukraine-eying-shale-gas.html)may have 42 tcf of shale gas resources technically recoverable from 197 tcf of risked shale gas in place.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/Dnieper%20Donetsk%20shale%20basin_0.jpg (http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/Dnieper%20Donetsk%20shale%20basin.jpg)

Finally, recall our story from May (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-13/farce-complete-joe-bidens-son-joins-board-largest-ukraine-gas-producer)that Joe Biden's son, Hunter, just joined the board of the largest Ukraine gas producer Burisma Holdings. From the press release (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-13/farce-complete-joe-bidens-son-joins-board-largest-ukraine-gas-producer):




http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/hunter%20biden_0.jpegR. Hunter Biden will be in charge of the Holdings’ legal unit and will provide support for the Company among international organizations. On his new appointment, he commented: “Burisma’s track record of innovations and industry leadership in the field of natural gas means that it can be a strong driver of a strong economy in Ukraine. As a new member of the Board, I believe that my assistance in consulting the Company on matters of transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international expansion and other priorities will contribute to the economy and benefit the people of Ukraine.”

R. Hunter Biden is also a well-known public figure. He is chairman of the Board of the World Food Programme U.S.A., together with the world’s largest humanitarian organization, the United Nations World Food Programme. In this capacity he offers assistance to the poor in developing countries, fighting hunger and poverty, and helping to provide food and education to 300 million malnourished children around the world.

Company Background:

Burisma Holdings is a privately owned oil and gas company with assets in Ukraine and operating in the energy market since 2002. To date, the company holds a portfolio with permits to develop fields in the Dnieper-Donets, the Carpathian and the Azov-Kuban basins. In 2013, the daily gas production grew steadily and at year-end amounted to 11.6 thousand BOE (barrels of oil equivalent – incl. gas, condensate and crude oil), or 1.8 million m3 of natural gas. The company sells these volumes in the domestic market through traders, as well as directly to final consumers.



Now put it all together and what happens next should be rather clear.
* * *
Still confused? It's very simple, really.
In a nutshell Ukraine (or rather its puppetmasters (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-06/fuck-eu-us-state-department-blasts-europe-revealed-alleged-mastermind-behind-ukraine)) has decided to let no crisis (staged or otherwise) or rather civil war, go to waste, and while the fighting rages all around, Ukrainian troopers are helping to install shale gas production equipment near the east Ukrainian town of Slavyansk, which was bombed and shelled for the three preceding months, according to local residents cited by Itar Tass (http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742366). The reason for the scramble? Under peacetime, the process was expected to take many years, during which Europe would be under the energy dictatorship of Putin. But throw in some civil war and few will notice let alone care that a process which was expected to take nearly a decade if not longer while dealing with broad popular objections to fracking, may instead be completed in months!




“Civilians protected by Ukrainian army are getting ready to install drilling rigs. More equipment is being brought in,” they said, adding that the military are encircling the future extraction area.

The people of Slavyansk, which is located in the heart of the Yzovka shale gas field, staged numerous protest actions in the past against its development. They even wanted to call in a referendum on that subject. Environmentalists are particularly concerned with the consequences of hydrofracing, a method used for shale gas extraction, because it implies the use of extremely toxic chemical agents which can poison not only subsoil waters but also the atmosphere. Experts claim that not a single country in the world has invented a method of utilization of harmful toxic agents in the process of development of shale gas deposits.

Countries like the Czech Republic, the Netherlands and France have given up plans to develop shale gas deposits in their territories.

Not only them but also all-important Germany, which two weeks ago announced (http://online.wsj.com/articles/germany-shelves-shale-gas-drilling-for-next-seven-years-1404481174)it would halt shale-gas drilling for the next seven years over groundwater pollution concerns.
Which clearly makes Ukraine, potentially the last place with massive shale gas deposits and no drilling ban, quite valuable to those who want to develop a major source of shale gas, one which reduces Europe's reliance on Russian gas even more, yet one whose future depends on one simple question: who controls East Ukraine?

Because what better way to accelerate "next steps" than to start drilling for gas in the middle of the Donetsk republic as a civil war is waging in all directions, and where public mood has shifted decidedly against the local "separatists" in the aftermath of the MH-17 tragedy.

The punchline: who will develop the gas field in conjunction with Shell (jointly owned by the Netherlands and the UK: the two countries that loathe Putin the most in the aftermath of the MH-17 disaster) which in May 2012 announced a tender for the right to develop the Yuzovka shale gas deposit?




Burisma, Ukraine’s oil and gas production holdings, also has the right to develop the shale gas fields in the Dnieper-Donetsk basin of Eastern Ukraine. The same Burisma where R. Hunter Biden, Joseph's son, was appointed a director two months ago.









(so red, this was why I was a bit incredulous at the dutch giving the black boxes to london, since they are both entities with a financial interest here...)

FBD
07-28-2014, 06:54 PM
fwiw...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-is-vladimir-putin-why-does-the-us-government-hate-him/5381205

FBD
07-29-2014, 02:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b67OGUsQC44

FBD
07-29-2014, 04:46 PM
high res shot of cockpit piece...holes are in fact going in both directions...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ds-NGxw20xE/U9bE-COl-_I/AAAAAAAAaUE/QEnG9LVvHLo/s1600/High+Res+MH17.png

FBD
07-29-2014, 05:19 PM
German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/schockierende-analyse-zum-abschuss-der-malaysian-mh-017/

‘The misfortune of the Malaysian MH 017 is known to all. The flight
recorder is in England and is being evaluated. What can come of this?
May be more than you want to accept….if you look at the image of
Cockpit-Fragments, this picture is certainly shocking.
Entry And Exit holes from bullets in the area of the Cockpit. This is not speculation, but analysis of clear facts: the cockpit
shows clear evidence of bullet holes. You can see the entry holes and
some exit points. The edges of the bullet holes are bent inwards,
these are much smaller and round in shape. A 30mm calibre. The exit
holes are less well formed and the edges are torn outwards.
Furthermore it is visible that the exit holes have torn the double
aluminium skin and bent them outwards. That is to say, splinters from
inside the cockpit blew through the outside of the cabin. The open
rivets have also been bent outwards….There is only one conclusion one can make, and that is that this: the
aircraft was not hit by a missile. The damage to the aircraft is
exclusively in the cockpit area….

Armour-Piercing Ammunition. Russia has published radar data that a
Ukranian SU 25 was close to MH 017. this corresponds with Spanish air
traffic control that two Ukranian fighter aircraft were in direct
contact with MH 017. Examine the weaponry of the SU 25: it is fitted
out with a 30mm cannon Type GSch-302 /AO-17A, with 250 rounds of
splintering exploding bullets on a belt – shrapnel rounds. The cockpit
of MH 017 was hit from TWO sides, as there are entry and exit holes on
the same side….’



http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59019/2791311/neues-deutschland-nva-raketenspezialist-mh17-nicht-von-boden-luft-rakete-abgeschossen

defence expert Bernd Biederman, who offers equally sound reasons why the
shooting down could NOT have been from a surface to air missile:

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”
(Thursday edition). Had splinters from a surface to air missile hit
the plane, it would have immediately caught fire, argues the NVA
anti-aircraft missile specialist. His reasoning is because of the
“enormous frictional heat that the splinters generate on penetrating
the fuselage. A single splinter contains the same kinetic energy as a
40-ton freight car hitting the buffers at 60 kilometers per hour.” In
the case of the Malaysian Boeing, scattered fires had broken out after
the impact with the ground, because hot debris from the aircraft had
come in contact with combustible materials.

Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology,
he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany and taught at
the Military Academy in the field of anti-aircraft missile troops.’

Articles are beginning to appear across the Web to the effect that Angela Merkel is disturbed by (and growing tired of) the incessant US propaganda being emitted in favour of its energy agenda….and so we must perhaps in turn view these articles in the light of her alleged new agenda concerning the creation of an alternative bloc to that of America. (More on this here in the near future).

But spin or not, these analyses make sense. The US State Dept has now shifted its position from ‘Russian atrocity’ to ‘tragic accident’. The above opinions suggest that neither are true: they suggest strongly that the Ukrainian air force took out MH17.

redred
07-29-2014, 06:02 PM
a lot of could be's , am I right in thinking like most of us this guy has not been to the site and just posting what he thinks based on pictures?

FBD
07-29-2014, 06:17 PM
that I dont know - if they're classified as "experts" then that should denote they have worked on and analyzed things like this before, with proficiency. 2 of them included in the links have reached similar conclusions, and with some high res shots to look at, you can examine particulars like this. but the holes going in both directions is significant, plus the mention that usually, planes burst into flames (especially something carrying enough gas to go to Kuala Lumpur) in air when hit with something like the sa-11, but seldom with machine gun fire. the plane only burst into flames when it hit the ground...

odd that higher res pictures are being reported as being taken down from places they reside on the internet....

I also find it incredibly hard to believe that the US wouldnt have had their satellites watching every last little thing there, and if that's the case, there is no reason they would not have produced pictures of the rocket launched that hit the plane, if reality fit the story they wanted to tell. it dont strike you as odd, given our surveillance capabilities, the near complete lack of any presentation of data from it?

redred
07-29-2014, 06:30 PM
http://www.anderweltonline.com/wisse...aysian-mh-017/


First, I was amazed at how few photos can be found from the wreckage with Google. All are in low resolution, except one: The fragment of the cockpit below the window on the master page. This image, however, is shocking. In Washington, you can hear voices now speaking regarding MH 017 from a "potentially tragic error / accident". Given that image does not surprise me that.
I recommend to click on the little picture on the right. You can download this photo as PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because only then is to understand what I am describing here. I'm not talking about speculation, but of clear facts:


looks like this one is looking at photo's :tup:

http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59019/2791311/neues-deutschland-nva-raketenspezialist-mh17-nicht-von-boden-luft-rakete-abgeschossen


This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”

would guess this is just his views :tup:


your post
http://www.tehfalloutshelter.com/showthread.php?62097-Russian-government-caught-changing-Wikipedia-entry-on-Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-17-report&p=552834&viewfull=1#post552834


Enjoy watching the state department basically admit that their "evidence" is based on youtube and social media posts

is this not the same ?

at this point in time no one apart from the person who press the button really knows what happened

FBD
07-29-2014, 06:35 PM
I dont think its the same, especially seeing as how people proved some of the stuff to be fake propaganda, e.g. the ukranian launcher they said was returning to russia, with the Uke billboard in the pic...etc, etc, etc have already mentioned.

are you somehow not getting the impression that US-EU-Nato-Ukr is withholding any relevant data they might have? the only "data" aside from crash analysis (which does involve plenty of pictures, higher res the better, because you dont even see the holes going both directions in low res shots...) that has yet to be released is all from Ukraine and US's standpoint...

redred
07-29-2014, 07:03 PM
I dont think its the same

your views right or wrong always seem against the system , you're against the police , government , teachers everyone :lol: so could your views be blinkered by the sites that you visit which also always seem to be against the power maybe if you poked your head around the middle ground you may see that both sides of this seem based so far on could be this or could be that , because so far I've not seen any facts apart from a plane has been blown out of the sky and all onboard have lost there lives , all I've seen is the 2 sides blaming each other

FBD
07-29-2014, 07:42 PM
eh, more like I dont really give anyone the benefit of the doubt any more :lol: this whole thing stinks to high hell (and gas is a very strong component of that smell...one big mixture of gas and bullshit :lol: )...I'm honestly shocked everyone around here is so predisposed to automatically blaming russia, then again, we've been hearing for eons how russia is bad, mkay...so then it becomes the "conditioning" facepalm...but then I feel like I'm insulting you guys by pointing out that your belief that it was the separatists who shot it down is based on that conditioning and little else aside from fingerpointing, extreme scrutiny for anything that goes against the propagandized storyline, while giving a veritable pass of "oh well, nobody really knows" when confronted with all of the evidence that keep increasingly pointing at the Ukranian army.

I mean, all the western news media totally lied about the coup there when this latest government was ushered in, illegally according to how Ukranian law used to stand...and then when the east doesnt want to be told what to do, to be saddled with hundreds of millions of dollars in IMF loans, Kiev tells them *that* is an illegal action and attacks them, bombs the shit out of residences and stuff...and then the lesser known data that there's frack-able lands in the east Ukraine, and the locals didnt want the fracking to happen, in comes biden junior as legal exec, there's war, and then we hear stuff about them going in and setting up shop to be able to start extracting fracked gas when that would have taken 10 years to get all that up and running...just all happens to coincide with them screwing with russia about gas...

no dots to be connected? sorry mate, I'm looking at the big picture and not just MH11 evidence (the vast majority of which imho points at ukr army)....there's all kinds of shit going on, and with the US's penchant for regime change, let's make sure this oil/gas makes it to the market where it can be sold in dollars, support the whole petrodollar racket...

I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this. :) My government is fucking evil, it is controlled by evil people who employ soulless, morally devoid henchmen to do their bidding, at the direct expense of the american people. They are treasonous and need to be swinging from lamp posts, every last one of them. God kill the queen, and all that. The world would have been a better place if he had.

redred
07-29-2014, 07:47 PM
My government is fucking evil, it is controlled by evil people who employ soulless

so get the fuck out then :lol:

FBD
07-29-2014, 08:05 PM
but I'm not IN the government :lol:


and...I almost have. but decided that friends and loved ones were more important than spending years and years in peace at 7000 feet in the andes...

FBD
07-30-2014, 01:44 PM
American Intelligence Officers Who Battled the Soviet Union for Decades Slam the Flimsy “Intelligence” Against Russia

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/obama-release-ukraine-evidence.html


signed,
Prepared by VIPS Steering Group

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)

David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret)

Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret); Foreign Service Officer (ret.)

FBD
07-30-2014, 05:17 PM
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3907/14658941306_1de743aa0c_b.jpg

FBD
10-23-2014, 05:00 PM
http://www.infowars.com/soros-admits-responsibility-for-coup-and-mass-murder-in-ukraine/

Lest something else be forgotten about this, you all know what an evil son of a bitch George Soros is... and everyone missed him admitting he had a hand in the illegal coup that took place in the Ukraine that put the current "government" there. Soros is also on record as having assisted the Nazis in WW2.


George Soros told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria over the weekend he is responsible for establishing a foundation in Ukraine that ultimately contributed to the overthrow of the country’s elected leader and the installation of a junta handpicked by the State Department.

“First on Ukraine, one of the things that many people recognized about you was that you during the revolutions of 1989 funded a lot of dissident activities, civil society groups in eastern Europe and Poland, the Czech Republic. Are you doing similar things in Ukraine?” Zakaria asked Soros.

“Well, I set up a foundation in Ukraine before Ukraine became independent of Russia. And the foundation has been functioning ever since and played an important part in events now,” Soros responded.

It is well-known, although forbidden for the establishment media to mention, that Soros worked closely with USAID, the National Endowment for Democracy (now doing work formerly assigned to the CIA), the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the Freedom House, and the Albert Einstein Institute to initiate a series of color revolutions in Eastern Europe and Central Asia following the engineered collapse of the Soviet Union.

“Many of the participants in Kiev’s ‘EuroMaidan’ demonstrations were members of Soros-funded NGOs and/or were trained by the same NGOs in the many workshops and conferences sponsored by Soros’ International Renaissance Foundation (IRF), and his various Open Society institutes and foundations. The IRF, founded and funded by Soros, boasts that it has given ‘more than any other donor organization’ to ‘democratic transformation’ of Ukraine,” writes William F. Jasper.

This transformation led to fascist ultra-nationalists controlling Ukraine’s security services. In April it was announced Andriy Parubiy and other coup leaders were working with the FBI and CIA to defeat and murder separatists opposed to the junta government installed by Victoria Nuland and the State Department. Parubiy is the founder of a national socialist party in Ukraine and currently the boss of the country’s National Security and Defense Council.


And now, a plea for everyone to join him in combating this existential threat that is Russia...

Wake Up, Europe

Europe is facing a challenge from Russia to its very existence. Neither the European leaders nor their citizens are fully aware of this challenge or know how best to deal with it. I attribute this mainly to the fact that the European Union in general and the eurozone in particular lost their way after the financial crisis of 2008.

The fiscal rules that currently prevail in Europe have aroused a lot of popular resentment. Anti-Europe parties captured nearly 30 percent of the seats in the latest elections for the European Parliament but they had no realistic alternative to the EU to point to until recently. Now Russia is presenting an alternative that poses a fundamental challenge to the values and principles on which the European Union was originally founded. It is based on the use of force that manifests itself in repression at home and aggression abroad, as opposed to the rule of law. What is shocking is that Vladimir Putin’s Russia has proved to be in some ways superior to the European Union—more flexible and constantly springing surprises. That has given it a tactical advantage, at least in the near term.

Europe and the United States—each for its own reasons—are determined to avoid any direct military confrontation with Russia. Russia is taking advantage of their reluctance. Violating its treaty obligations, Russia has annexed Crimea and established separatist enclaves in eastern Ukraine. In August, when the recently installed government in Kiev threatened to win the low-level war in eastern Ukraine against separatist forces backed by Russia, President Putin invaded Ukraine with regular armed forces in violation of the Russian law that exempts conscripts from foreign service without their consent.

In seventy-two hours these forces destroyed several hundred of Ukraine’s armored vehicles, a substantial portion of its fighting force. According to General Wesley Clark, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander for Europe, the Russians used multiple launch rocket systems armed with cluster munitions and thermobaric warheads (an even more inhumane weapon that ought to be outlawed) with devastating effect.* The local militia from the Ukrainian city of Dnepropetrovsk suffered the brunt of the losses because they were communicating by cell phones and could thus easily be located and targeted by the Russians. President Putin has, so far, abided by a cease-fire agreement he concluded with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on September 5, but Putin retains the choice to continue the cease-fire as long as he finds it advantageous or to resume a full-scale assault.

In September, President Poroshenko visited Washington where he received an enthusiastic welcome from a joint session of Congress. He asked for “both lethal and nonlethal” defensive weapons in his speech. However, President Obama refused his request for Javelin hand-held missiles that could be used against advancing tanks. Poroshenko was given radar, but what use is it without missiles? European countries are equally reluctant to provide military assistance to Ukraine, fearing Russian retaliation. The Washington visit gave President Poroshenko a façade of support with little substance behind it.

Equally disturbing has been the determination of official international leaders to withhold new financial commitments to Ukraine until after the October 26 election there (which will take place just after this issue goes to press). This has led to an avoidable pressure on Ukrainian currency reserves and raised the specter of a full-blown financial crisis in the country.

There is now pressure from donors, whether in Europe or the US, to “bail in” the bondholders of Ukrainian sovereign debt, i.e., for bondholders to take losses on their investments as a precondition for further official assistance to Ukraine that would put more taxpayers’ money at risk. That would be an egregious error. The Ukrainian government strenuously opposes the proposal because it would put Ukraine into a technical default that would make it practically impossible for the private sector to refinance its debt. Bailing in private creditors would save very little money and it would make Ukraine entirely dependent on the official donors.

To complicate matters, Russia is simultaneously dangling carrots and wielding sticks. It is offering—but failing to sign—a deal for gas supplies that would take care of Ukraine’s needs for the winter. At the same time Russia is trying to prevent the delivery of gas that Ukraine secured from the European market through Slovakia. Similarly, Russia is negotiating for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to monitor the borders while continuing to attack the Donetsk airport and the port city of Mariupol.

It is easy to foresee what lies ahead. Putin will await the results of the elections on October 26 and then offer Poroshenko the gas and other benefits he has been dangling on condition that he appoint a prime minister acceptable to Putin. That would exclude anybody associated with the victory of the forces that brought down the Viktor Yanukovych government by resisting it for months on the Maidan—Independence Square. I consider it highly unlikely that Poroshenko would accept such an offer. If he did, he would be disowned by the defenders of the Maidan; the resistance forces would then be revived.

Putin may then revert to the smaller victory that would still be within his reach: he could open by force a land route from Russia to Crimea and Transnistria before winter. Alternatively, he could simply sit back and await the economic and financial collapse of Ukraine. I suspect that he may be holding out the prospect of a grand bargain in which Russia would help the United States against ISIS—for instance by not supplying to Syria the S300 missiles it has promised, thus in effect preserving US air domination—and Russia would be allowed to have its way in the “near abroad,” as many of the nations adjoining Russia are called. What is worse, President Obama may accept such a deal.

That would be a tragic mistake, with far-reaching geopolitical consequences. Without underestimating the threat from ISIS, I would argue that preserving the independence of Ukraine should take precedence; without it, even the alliance against ISIS would fall apart. The collapse of Ukraine would be a tremendous loss for NATO, the European Union, and the United States. A victorious Russia would become much more influential within the EU and pose a potent threat to the Baltic states with their large ethnic Russian populations. Instead of supporting Ukraine, NATO would have to defend itself on its own soil. This would expose both the EU and the US to the danger they have been so eager to avoid: a direct military confrontation with Russia. The European Union would become even more divided and ungovernable. Why should the US and other NATO nations allow this to happen?

The argument that has prevailed in both Europe and the United States is that Putin is no Hitler; by giving him everything he can reasonably ask for, he can be prevented from resorting to further use of force. In the meantime, the sanctions against Russia—which include, for example, restrictions on business transactions, finance, and trade—will have their effect and in the long run Russia will have to retreat in order to earn some relief from them.

These are false hopes derived from a false argument with no factual evidence to support it. Putin has repeatedly resorted to force and he is liable to do so again unless he faces strong resistance. Even if it is possible that the hypothesis could turn out to be valid, it is extremely irresponsible not to prepare a Plan B.

There are two counterarguments that are less obvious but even more important. First, Western authorities have ignored the importance of what I call the “new Ukraine” that was born in the successful resistance on the Maidan. Many officials with a history of dealing with Ukraine have difficulty adjusting to the revolutionary change that has taken place there. The recently signed Association Agreement between the EU and Ukraine was originally negotiated with the Yanukovych government. This detailed road map now needs adjustment to a totally different situation. For instance, the road map calls for the gradual replacement and retraining of the judiciary over five years whereas the public is clamoring for immediate and radical renewal. As the new mayor of Kiev, Vitali Klitschko, put it, “If you put fresh cucumbers into a barrel of pickles, they will soon turn into pickles.”

Contrary to some widely circulated accounts, the resistance on the Maidan was led by the cream of civil society: young people, many of whom had studied abroad and refused to join either government or business on their return because they found both of them repugnant. (Nationalists and anti-Semitic extremists made up only a minority of the anti-Yanukovych protesters.) They are the leaders of the new Ukraine and they are adamantly opposed to a return of the “old Ukraine,” with its endemic corruption and ineffective government.

The new Ukraine has to contend with Russian aggression, bureaucratic resistance both at home and abroad, and confusion in the general population. Surprisingly, it has the support of many oligarchs, President Poroshenko foremost among them, and the population at large. There are of course profound differences in history, language, and outlook between the eastern and western parts of the country, but Ukraine is more united and more European-minded than ever before. That unity, however, is extremely fragile.

The new Ukraine has remained largely unrecognized because it took time before it could make its influence felt. It had practically no security forces at its disposal when it was born. The security forces of the old Ukraine were actively engaged in suppressing the Maidan rebellion and they were disoriented this summer when they had to take orders from a government formed by the supporters of the rebellion. No wonder that the new government was at first unable to put up an effective resistance to the establishment of the separatist enclaves in eastern Ukraine. It is all the more remarkable that President Poroshenko was able, within a few months of his election, to mount an attack that threatened to reclaim those enclaves.

To appreciate the merits of the new Ukraine you need to have had some personal experience with it. I can speak from personal experience although I must also confess to a bias in its favor. I established a foundation in Ukraine in 1990 even before the country became independent. Its board and staff are composed entirely of Ukrainians and it has deep roots in civil society. I visited the country often, especially in the early years, but not between 2004 and early 2014, when I returned to witness the birth of the new Ukraine.

I was immediately impressed by the tremendous improvement in maturity and expertise during that time both in my foundation and in civil society at large. Currently, civic and political engagement is probably higher than anywhere else in Europe. People have proven their willingness to sacrifice their lives for their country. These are the hidden strengths of the new Ukraine that have been overlooked by the West.

The other deficiency of the current European attitude toward Ukraine is that it fails to recognize that the Russian attack on Ukraine is indirectly an attack on the European Union and its principles of governance. It ought to be evident that it is inappropriate for a country, or association of countries, at war to pursue a policy of fiscal austerity as the European Union continues to do. All available resources ought to be put to work in the war effort even if that involves running up budget deficits. The fragility of the new Ukraine makes the ambivalence of the West all the more perilous. Not only the survival of the new Ukraine but the future of NATO and the European Union itself is at risk. In the absence of unified resistance it is unrealistic to expect that Putin will stop pushing beyond Ukraine when the division of Europe and its domination by Russia is in sight.

Having identified some of the shortcomings of the current approach, I will try to spell out the course that Europe ought to follow. Sanctions against Russia are necessary but they are a necessary evil. They have a depressive effect not only on Russia but also on the European economies, including Germany. This aggravates the recessionary and deflationary forces that are already at work. By contrast, assisting Ukraine in defending itself against Russian aggression would have a stimulative effect not only on Ukraine but also on Europe. That is the principle that ought to guide European assistance to Ukraine.

Germany, as the main advocate of fiscal austerity, needs to understand the internal contradiction involved. Chancellor Angela Merkel has behaved as a true European with regard to the threat posed by Russia. She has been the foremost advocate of sanctions on Russia, and she has been more willing to defy German public opinion and business interests on this than on any other issue. Only after the Malaysian civilian airliner was shot down in July did German public opinion catch up with her. Yet on fiscal austerity she has recently reaffirmed her allegiance to the orthodoxy of the Bundesbank—probably in response to the electoral inroads made by the Alternative for Germany, the anti-euro party. She does not seem to realize how inconsistent that is. She ought to be even more committed to helping Ukraine than to imposing sanctions on Russia.

The new Ukraine has the political will both to defend Europe against Russian aggression and to engage in radical structural reforms. To preserve and reinforce that will, Ukraine needs to receive adequate assistance from its supporters. Without it, the results will be disappointing and hope will turn into despair. Disenchantment already started to set in after Ukraine suffered a military defeat and did not receive the weapons it needs to defend itself.

It is high time for the members of the European Union to wake up and behave as countries indirectly at war. They are better off helping Ukraine to defend itself than having to fight for themselves. One way or another, the internal contradiction between being at war and remaining committed to fiscal austerity has to be eliminated. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Let me be specific. In its last progress report, issued in early September, the IMF estimated that in a worst-case scenario Ukraine would need additional support of $19 billion. Conditions have deteriorated further since then. After the Ukrainian elections the IMF will need to reassess its baseline forecast in consultation with the Ukrainian government. It should provide an immediate cash injection of at least $20 billion, with a promise of more when needed. Ukraine’s partners should provide additional financing conditional on implementation of the IMF-supported program, at their own risk, in line with standard practice.

The spending of borrowed funds is controlled by the agreement between the IMF and the Ukrainian government. Four billion dollars would go to make up the shortfall in Ukrainian payments to date; $2 billion would be assigned to repairing the coal mines in eastern Ukraine that remain under the control of the central government; and $2 billion would be earmarked for the purchase of additional gas for the winter. The rest would replenish the currency reserves of the central bank.

The new assistance package would include a debt exchange that would transform Ukraine’s hard currency Eurobond debt (which totals almost $18 billion) into long-term, less risky bonds. This would lighten Ukraine’s debt burden and bring down its risk premium. By participating in the exchange, bondholders would agree to accept a lower interest rate and wait longer to get their money back. The exchange would be voluntary and market-based so that it could not be mischaracterized as a default. Bondholders would participate willingly because the new long-term bonds would be guaranteed—but only partially—by the US or Europe, much as the US helped Latin America emerge from its debt crisis in the 1980s with so-called Brady bonds (named for US Treasury Secretary Nicholas Brady).

Such an exchange would have a few important benefits. One is that, over the next two or three critical years, the government could use considerably less of its scarce hard currency reserves to pay off bondholders. The money could be used for other urgent needs.

By trimming Ukraine debt payments in the next few years, the exchange would also reduce the chance of a sovereign default, discouraging capital flight and arresting the incipient run on the banks. This would make it easier to persuade owners of Ukraine’s banks (many of them foreign) to inject urgently needed new capital into them. The banks desperately need bigger capital cushions if Ukraine is to avoid a full-blown banking crisis, but shareholders know that a debt crisis could cause a banking crisis that wipes out their equity.

Finally, Ukraine would keep bondholders engaged rather than watch them cash out at 100 cents on the dollar as existing debt comes due in the next few years. This would make it easier for Ukraine to reenter the international bond markets once the crisis has passed. Under the current conditions it would be more practical and cost-efficient for the US and Europe not to use their own credit directly to guarantee part of Ukraine’s debt, but to employ intermediaries such as the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development or the World Bank and its subsidiaries.

The Ukrainian state-owned company Naftogaz is a black hole in the budget and a major source of corruption. Naftogaz currently sells gas to households for $47 per trillion cubic meters (TCM), for which it pays $380 per TCM. At present people cannot control the temperature in their apartments. A radical restructuring of Naftogaz’s entire system could reduce household consumption at least by half and totally eliminate Ukraine’s dependence on Russia for gas. That would involve charging households the market price for gas. The first step would be to install meters in apartments and the second to distribute a cash subsidy to needy households.

The will to make these reforms is strong both in the new management and in the incoming government but the task is extremely complicated (how do you define who is needy?) and the expertise is inadequate. The World Bank and its subsidiaries could sponsor a project development team that would bring together international and domestic experts to convert the existing political will into bankable projects. The initial cost would exceed $10 billion but it could be financed by project bonds issued by the European Investment Bank and it would produce very high returns.

It is also high time for the European Union to take a critical look at itself. There must be something wrong with the EU if Putin’s Russia can be so successful even in the short term. The bureaucracy of the EU no longer has a monopoly of power and it has little to be proud of. It should learn to be more united, flexible, and efficient. And Europeans themselves need to take a close look at the new Ukraine. That could help them recapture the original spirit that led to the creation of the European Union. The European Union would save itself by saving Ukraine.

—October 23, 2014

some of yas getting excited about what side of history it looks like you're on? :razz:

FBD
01-23-2015, 09:42 PM
:blind:












http://i.imgur.com/JS6NAWB.jpg

FBD
01-24-2015, 06:19 PM
of course I do not know the authenticity of this photo - but this is on the level of resolution I would have expected from the US Government (nato, whatever you want to call what's behind calling shots like this,) if they indeed had evidence they wanted to attempt to use to back up their story their tried telling.

if it was a buk shot, you know goddam well there would have been an image that looked almost exactly like this, showing the buk trail coming up from the ground.