Israel etc.

[Lambchop]

My friend Muhammad said that Israel is an oppressive nation, whose people have infiltrated western governments and media to instil anti-Palestinian propaganda, while they maintain the world's largest concentration camp that houses the Palestinian people.

Is my fake friend Muhammad right?


Dead babies, dead babies everywhere.

[DemonGeminiX]

Nope. Your fake friend Muhammad is sniffing glue. Tell him to go get laid and eat some bacon.

[Loser]

Tell him to have his friends stop provoking a well armed nation by lobbing rockets at them. :nana:

[FBD]

As usual, it all depends on what you choose your context to be...

As to jews having a homeland, well, ok, everyone needs one. That's what the whole 1967 borders thing was about. Palestinians have all but given up on getting those pre 1967 borders back. But the settlements...those, from what I can tell, are a different story, with Israel basically going in, occupying the land, then selling it to their citizens very cheap. So after that early-mid 70s "war" it has not been Israel "establishing their nation," it has been them expanding it beyond prior agreements at the explicit expense of the weaker palestinians. Establishing controlled areas, checkpoints, who the fuck wants to sit in a sweltering car for hours just to get past a checkpoint to get to the other side of the state, etc, etc...so you can just about see the roots of the police state TPTB are trying to establish in america in the things that the Israelis do over there.

Fuck, I mean how are you guys going to feel when our license plates on cars are bar coded and you get scanned every time you pass a cop and they instantly have a barrage of information on you..

I dont really buy the whole "but the palestinians are too disorganized to get their shit together, therefore..." therefore what, that leaves no reason for Israel to "let" the palestinians "have their own state?"

The whole single state solution over there is garbage, Desmond Tutu is correct when he says it is an apartheid situation - the Israelis run the gov, and palestinians are second class citizens in the eyes of the people who run Israel. These "negotiations for statehood" since they started have merely allowed the Israelis to more than triple the "settlement" ok let's call a spade a spade, "confiscated lands" they have occupied. Would Canada be ok with the US just saying "hey, I know our border is here at X, but we're going to move it another 40 miles over your side of the property?" Fuckin hell no they wouldnt, but the palestinians are weak and disorganized, and are thus being taken advantage of.

I just believe at this point, there's not really much of any excuse not to let the palestinians run themselves. Sure they will stumble and there will be corruption and they may have a tough time paying their bills - but at least they will be doing it themselves, allowed to govern themselves. States dont recognize other states plenty often, I think Israel saying "well, so long as some of you guys say that so long as Israel exists you will try to get your land back and refuse to acknowledge israel's existence....then we just cant let you have your own government and state" is a load of bullshit, just an excuse to keep control of the territory, and how long will it take them to expand all the way and have ethnically cleansed the area? You think that's not the endgame?



But I want to know different things, like what are Israel's agreements with the Saudis, why do so many "influential" us politicians, senators and such, hold dual Israeli citizenship...for things like those are of geopolitical importance. This stuff here is just of local importance, mainly. Israel fucks with a lot more than just palestinians.

[RBP]

That's what the whole 1967 borders thing was about.

http://i.imgur.com/yD9nr6J.jpg

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/what-exactly-are-the-1967-borders/

[RBP]

I just believe at this point, there's not really much of any excuse not to let the palestinians run themselves. Sure they will stumble and there will be corruption and they may have a tough time paying their bills - but at least they will be doing it themselves, allowed to govern themselves. States dont recognize other states plenty often, I think Israel saying "well, so long as some of you guys say that so long as Israel exists you will try to get your land back and refuse to acknowledge israel's existence....then we just cant let you have your own government and state" is a load of bullshit, just an excuse to keep control of the territory, and how long will it take them to expand all the way and have ethnically cleansed the area? You think that's not the endgame?

No, I don't think that's the endgame. I have zero faith in the idea that a Palestinian state, as it is politically organized right now, could have a peaceful coexistence with Israel. The Palestinian "border" would be a militarized breeding ground for Islamic Militants even worse than it already is now. Want my answer? Give the west bank to Jordan and Gaza to Eqypt. The Egyptians and the Jordanians are far less likely to go to war with Israel than an independent Palestinian state. They get the territory but not the control.

[Loser]

As to jews having a homeland, well, ok, everyone needs one. That's what the whole 1967 borders thing was about. Palestinians have all but given up on getting those pre 1967 borders back. But the settlements...those, from what I can tell, are a different story, with Israel basically going in, occupying the land, then selling it to their citizens very cheap. So after that early-mid 70s "war" it has not been Israel "establishing their nation," it has been them expanding it beyond prior agreements at the explicit expense of the weaker palestinians. Establishing controlled areas, checkpoints, who the fuck wants to sit in a sweltering car for hours just to get past a checkpoint to get to the other side of the state, etc, etc...so you can just about see the roots of the police state TPTB are trying to establish in america in the things that the Israelis do over there.



Dead wrong on that.

From very year israel was founded, it was attacked by arab nations.

Every piece of land Israel occupied was gotten through defence and pushing back arab invasions.


Here's a history refresher...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg1IVjnRuXk

[Hugh_Janus]

your friend is obviously a muslim ergo he is evil and hates the west his opinion doesn't count. Case closed.

[Lambchop]

Last year Israel started paying students to spread pro-Israeli propaganda throughout the internet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/14/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782.html

I think we should dig deeper.

[Loser]

Last year Israel started paying students to spread pro-Israeli propaganda throughout the internet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/14/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782.html

I think we should dig deeper.


In 2012, a Palestinian-run blog reported

Let's not. I stopped at this.

[Lambchop]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170928

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.541142

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/government-to-pay-students-for-pro-israel-social-media-messages/2013/08/14/

I guess that Palestinian blog was correct.

[Lambchop]

"The IDF had a target, a Hamas terrorist target," Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner told the ABC's 7.30 program.

"We had intelligence pointing specifically to that location and we had the indication that the perpetrators were on the beach. We had a specific target indicating that they were supposed to be there.

"We had visual surveillance, clearly, to an extent that we should have been able to determine who was on the beach."

Lt Col Lerner did not provide detail about how long the boys were being observed or by what method.

"We need to determine what happened between the gathering of the intelligence and what happened that caused this unfortunate human tragedy," he said.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/24533576/israeli-troops-should-have-been-able-to-tell-slain-gaza-children-not-hamas-members-colonel-says/

IDF Lieutenant Colonel says it was a human tragedy. I say it was a crime against humanity.

[Loser]

IDF Lieutenant Colonel says it was a human tragedy. I say it was a crime against humanity.

Well, if palastine stopped harboring terrorists that lobbed rockets at israel, NONE of this would have happened.

Why is that so hard to understand?

You believe that if Mexico started shooting rockets into arizona and texas, the US would do nothing? :roll:

[Lambchop]

They were just children playing on a beach dude. The IDF spokesman confirms himself that someone within his organisation made a huge error, meaning their deaths were a direct result of the IDF. Even after the kids ran, another bomb seemed to catch up with them.

With reference to your analogy, I would expect the US to act but I wouldn't expect the US to bomb 4 kids playing on a beach in clear sight until they were all dead.

It's no wonder Israel has started to pay students to make pro-Israel propaganda online. I'm not going to fall for their shit.

Hundreds of illegal settlements, child murder, calculated plight of Palestinians...

We must start digging deeper to find out why Israel can act in this disgraceful way without any international action taken. This is the conspiracy I'm interested in.

[DemonGeminiX]

Loser's correct. Palestine and Hamas are masters at propaganda intended to make Israel look bad. They start shit and then hide like cowards while Israel reacts, then when they see the results of Israel's reactions, it's all "Woe are we." Fuck them. They are nothing more than human cockroaches. If the Palestinians gave up Hamas and kicked them out or whatever and became more vigilant about not letting terrorist groups back into their ranks, then there would be peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Like I said somewhere else, Egypt, who are by no means friends of Israel, said it themselves: Hamas started this shit. And I say they deserve whatever Israel throws at their pathetic asses.

[Loser]

They were just children playing on a beach dude. The IDF spokesman confirms himself that someone within his organisation made a huge error, meaning their deaths were a direct result of the IDF. Even after the kids ran, another bomb seemed to catch up with them.

With reference to your analogy, I would expect the US to act but I wouldn't expect the US to bomb 4 kids playing on a beach in clear sight until they were all dead.

It's no wonder Israel has started to pay students to make pro-Israel propaganda online. I'm not going to fall for their shit.

Hundreds of illegal settlements, child murder, calculated plight of Palestinians...

We must start digging deeper to find out why Israel can act in this disgraceful way without any international action taken. This is the conspiracy I'm interested in.


You're missing the point I'm trying to make.

It wouldn't have happened if hamas was not lobbing rockets at israel.

Every military action israel has ever taken has been in self defense. Flat out fact.

And just to point out. Your dear palastine and hamas has been INDISCRIMINATELY lobbing rockets at tel aviv, with no care WHO they kill.

[FBD]

No, I don't think that's the endgame. I have zero faith in the idea that a Palestinian state, as it is politically organized right now, could have a peaceful coexistence with Israel. The Palestinian "border" would be a militarized breeding ground for Islamic Militants even worse than it already is now. Want my answer? Give the west bank to Jordan and Gaza to Eqypt. The Egyptians and the Jordanians are far less likely to go to war with Israel than an independent Palestinian state. They get the territory but not the control.

ya know what homes, that's the best idea I've ever heard on all this. gonna be fucked no matter what :lol:

sure the palestinians have done a lot of shit, but the whole thing was just bad right from day one, israel's done its share of geopolitical games on top of it...and its the shit like that which tends to lessen my sympathy for having their shit attacked.

[Lambchop]

I'm not buying it guys.

http://i60.tinypic.com/wlqf6d.png

http://i61.tinypic.com/2vwb6hd.png

http://i57.tinypic.com/314w1ep.png

http://i60.tinypic.com/34s5kpe.png

http://i60.tinypic.com/30aas0y.png

[Lambchop]

Pro-Israel propaganda is rammed so far down our throats that it is acceptable to call someone anti-Semitic simply for speaking against these illegal settlements and child murder. This would imply that Israel is a perfect nation that cannot do wrong in the eyes of some.

I heard the Israel lobby over there in the US is equally aggressive.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfw5aLYiq5k

Also check this out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ

[RBP]

Confiscated land? Let's not forget that Gaza and the West Bank are IN ISRAEL.

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Fuck Israel, fuck the middle east

[Lambchop]

http://i62.tinypic.com/2w5rgub.jpg

Looks like a virus spreading.

[FBD]

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/07/08/who-started-the-cycle-of-violence-in-palestine/


On June 12, at 10:15 p.m., a trio of Israeli teenagers – Gil-Ad Shaer, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach – who were hitchhiking back to their homes were given a lift by Marwan Qawasmeh and Amar Abu Aisha. The car radio had Israel’s public station on, giving the impression that the occupants were Israelis, but the three boys soon realized their fatal mistake. One of them called 911 and told the dispatcher "We’ve been kidnapped": in the recording – kept secret until now – one can hear gunshots in the background, the cry of someone who has at least been wounded, followed by celebratory singing.

Oddly, the police did not respond to the call until five hours later, when the parents reported them missing.

The authorities immediately issued a gag order on all reporting on the content of the call, while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his cabinet lied to the Israeli and international public by pretending not to know the boys were almost certainly dead. Even after the kidnappers’ abandoned car was found, splattered with bloodstains that confirmed the killing, the Israeli authorities continued to maintain the fiction that the three were being held for some yet-to-be-disclosed ransom.

The boys, said Netanyahu & Co., had been kidnapped by Hamas in order to extract more concessions from the Israeli government as in the case of Gilad Shalit. The Israeli-Jordanian border was closed, supposedly to prevent the transport of the kidnapped teens. Netanyahu’s wife launched a media campaign on Twitter modeled on Michelle Obama’s #BringBackOurGirls hashtag: "Bring back our boys!"

And of course there was a military complement to the propaganda campaign: although the Israeli government knew the three boys were almost certainly dead, they initiated what they dubbed "Operation Brother’s Keeper." Thousands of IDF soldiers combed the West Bank, ostensibly searching for the kidnapped boys: 560 Palestinians were arrested, with over 200 still being held, and over 2,000 locations – homes, public buildings, even water wells – were searched. Palestinian homes were ransacked and looted. And, naturally, Gaza – Israel’s punching bag – was mercilessly bombed, in tandem with the killing of six young Palestinians by the IDF.

As Israel Pulse points out, when rumors that the boys’ bodies had been found began to circulate, the Israeli authorities held a press conference at which

"IDF spokesman Brig. Gen. Moti Almoz adopted a reproachful tone and raised hopes even higher. He said, ‘Both the army and the Shin Bet are working on making new evaluations of the situation in the recent hours and are involved in many operations designed to ensure the safe return of these boys. Regarding the rumors that have spread — these rumors have no basis and are not reliable.’ He didn’t even blink an eye when he said this."

One imagines the authorities were equally unblinking when they lied to the parents of one of the boys, who – after being allowed to listen to the 911 call – were told the shots heard were "blanks"! The government then sent family members to a United Nations conference in which the deceived parents tearfully pleaded for their sons’ return.

So if the above is true,

wait a second, the kids were that fkn stupid to get into a car because it was playing an israeli radio station?

:hand: the way I see it, the plausibility of IDF/mossad killing these boys is more plausible than the story they put forth.


So why did the Israeli government lie about the "kidnapping"? Look at the context: the US had recently recognized the Fatah-Hamas unity government and Tel Aviv had taken the brunt of the blame for the failure of the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. It was a no-brainer, as far as the Israelis were concerned: why not use the murder to exert maximum political leverage on Washington, launch fresh attacks on the Palestinians, and score a few much-needed propaganda points?

The Israelis not only kept the murder of the three boys secret, they also kept the identities of the accused Palestinians under wraps for two weeks. Why?

Because the two brothers implicated in the murder are members of a clan known to be a "rogue" element in Hamas, having defied the wishes of the Hamas leadership on repeated occasions. Hamas would have no motive for the murder, unless the leadership wanted to sacrifice the real political gains they have made on the West Bank for the "satisfaction" of executing three Israeli teens.

The Israeli deception allowed them a pretext to carry out a military operation that otherwise would’ve been seen for just what it was and is: pure vengeance directed at those who had nothing to do with – and nothing to gain from – the murders.

as usual, the media reports only what has survived government redacting and proper grooming by the ministry of propaganda.

the lesser of two evils is still eveil. so when evil is fighting evil, which side you gona pick? evil? or be an umpire and just call balls & strikes?

[FBD]

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/07/08/who-started-the-cycle-of-violence-in-palestine/


On June 12, at 10:15 p.m., a trio of Israeli teenagers – Gil-Ad Shaer, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach – who were hitchhiking back to their homes were given a lift by Marwan Qawasmeh and Amar Abu Aisha. The car radio had Israel’s public station on, giving the impression that the occupants were Israelis, but the three boys soon realized their fatal mistake. One of them called 911 and told the dispatcher "We’ve been kidnapped": in the recording – kept secret until now – one can hear gunshots in the background, the cry of someone who has at least been wounded, followed by celebratory singing.

Oddly, the police did not respond to the call until five hours later, when the parents reported them missing.

The authorities immediately issued a gag order on all reporting on the content of the call, while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his cabinet lied to the Israeli and international public by pretending not to know the boys were almost certainly dead. Even after the kidnappers’ abandoned car was found, splattered with bloodstains that confirmed the killing, the Israeli authorities continued to maintain the fiction that the three were being held for some yet-to-be-disclosed ransom.

The boys, said Netanyahu & Co., had been kidnapped by Hamas in order to extract more concessions from the Israeli government as in the case of Gilad Shalit. The Israeli-Jordanian border was closed, supposedly to prevent the transport of the kidnapped teens. Netanyahu’s wife launched a media campaign on Twitter modeled on Michelle Obama’s #BringBackOurGirls hashtag: "Bring back our boys!"

And of course there was a military complement to the propaganda campaign: although the Israeli government knew the three boys were almost certainly dead, they initiated what they dubbed "Operation Brother’s Keeper." Thousands of IDF soldiers combed the West Bank, ostensibly searching for the kidnapped boys: 560 Palestinians were arrested, with over 200 still being held, and over 2,000 locations – homes, public buildings, even water wells – were searched. Palestinian homes were ransacked and looted. And, naturally, Gaza – Israel’s punching bag – was mercilessly bombed, in tandem with the killing of six young Palestinians by the IDF.

As Israel Pulse points out, when rumors that the boys’ bodies had been found began to circulate, the Israeli authorities held a press conference at which

"IDF spokesman Brig. Gen. Moti Almoz adopted a reproachful tone and raised hopes even higher. He said, ‘Both the army and the Shin Bet are working on making new evaluations of the situation in the recent hours and are involved in many operations designed to ensure the safe return of these boys. Regarding the rumors that have spread — these rumors have no basis and are not reliable.’ He didn’t even blink an eye when he said this."

One imagines the authorities were equally unblinking when they lied to the parents of one of the boys, who – after being allowed to listen to the 911 call – were told the shots heard were "blanks"! The government then sent family members to a United Nations conference in which the deceived parents tearfully pleaded for their sons’ return.

So if the above is true,

wait a second, the kids were that fkn stupid to get into a car because it was playing an israeli radio station?

:hand: the way I see it, the plausibility of IDF/mossad killing these boys is more plausible than the story they put forth.


So why did the Israeli government lie about the "kidnapping"? Look at the context: the US had recently recognized the Fatah-Hamas unity government and Tel Aviv had taken the brunt of the blame for the failure of the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. It was a no-brainer, as far as the Israelis were concerned: why not use the murder to exert maximum political leverage on Washington, launch fresh attacks on the Palestinians, and score a few much-needed propaganda points?

The Israelis not only kept the murder of the three boys secret, they also kept the identities of the accused Palestinians under wraps for two weeks. Why?

Because the two brothers implicated in the murder are members of a clan known to be a "rogue" element in Hamas, having defied the wishes of the Hamas leadership on repeated occasions. Hamas would have no motive for the murder, unless the leadership wanted to sacrifice the real political gains they have made on the West Bank for the "satisfaction" of executing three Israeli teens.

The Israeli deception allowed them a pretext to carry out a military operation that otherwise would’ve been seen for just what it was and is: pure vengeance directed at those who had nothing to do with – and nothing to gain from – the murders.

as usual, the media reports only what has survived government redacting and proper grooming by the ministry of propaganda.

the lesser of two evils is still eveil. so when evil is fighting evil, which side you gona pick? evil? or be an umpire and just call balls & strikes?

[Goofy]

Raise your hand if you stay in the middle east.................. what, no one? Didn't think so! Therefore, i really don't give a flying fuck, it's none of my business and none of our governments business, let the religious neanderthals get on with it :)

[FBD]

unfortunately, goof....geopolitical fuckery by our leaders does indeed wind up affecting us, even though we dont live in these places.

[Fodster]

Timelapse Video Shows Complete Flattening Of Gaza Neighbourhood


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGOUEO-V6Y

[PorkChopSandwiches]

Damn

[Loser]

When 9/11 happened, the U.S destroyed two nations, that had nothing do with 9/11. Flat out killing 100,000's of civilians in the process, spanning a decade.

Hamas, protected by palastine, has lobbed 10,000+ rockets into israel, indiscriminately, over the last 25+ years...

You honestly don't think this is an appropriate response?


Now for the other end of the spectrum.

The only..ONLY....reason Iran will not get a nuclear weapon, will be because of israel. Our pansy assed fucktard in charge is doing absolutely nothing about it. If Iran has a nuclear weapon, guaranteed, the west will be targeted.

Our own military HATES our president. That says something.

[FBD]

maybe I read that wrong, but that almost sounds like an attempt at justifying afghan and iraqi civilian deaths by proxy of equating a stand of israelis' "justified" bombing of palestinians.

(of course ya know that while I've always thought the commission report was a huge load of BS, it took me a while to dig deeply enough to figure out it was set up, enabled, perpetrated by the government. with that being "true"...and this whole being in bed with another top 3 most ruthless regime on the planet (saudis)....this whole matter of ISIS (IS, ISIL, whatever) having gained traction has saudi fingerprints on it and has involved us in the sectarian war of islam....which israel is down with. this whole matter of lobbing rockets is misdirection, imo. there's another grand war to be had, and if its going to really be a good worldwide one, we have to get the players arranged properly. every time there's a huge resource or systemic financial issue in the world, there's a fuggin war, and with the US beaten down as its been in the last 20-50 years since Nixon defaulted on our debt...the stage is being set all over the place.)

[Loser]

No the first line was meant to be a wtf moment, as no main stream media brought to attention that over 100,000 civilians died during those wars.

Wars that didn't need to happen, against countries that didn't attack us.

Sure people were against the wars, but no media attention as to how many civilians died.


Israel is defending itself. Flat out. But for some reason people are throwing a fucking hissy because they are doing so.

[FBD]

I was pretty sure that was your intent, I know you a lil better than that I think :lol: So I tried to frame it as such.

I just think to *only* consider this in the context of "israelis have their land, and rockets are getting fired into it" is a bit....narrow...but I'm coing from a perspective that I cant support the vast majority of anything the US or the Israeli government does.

will most likely be writing NO CONSENT on my ballots

[Lambchop]

Timelapse Video Shows Complete Flattening Of Gaza Neighbourhood


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGOUEO-V6Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KR_GVWI7B4

''We are not targeting a single civilian'' :-s

[Lambchop]

Another UN shelter housing kids shelled by Israel, after being warned by the UN 17 times about the site!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel

[Muddy]

Here's one for the winning team.

THIRD Rocket Arsenal Found At UN School In Gaza


UNRWA has yet to place blame on any individuals or organizations for placing the weapons stockpile within a children’s school. The UN body refused to do so on the past two previous occasions as well.
The UN body, after both previous findings, has handed the rockets it had found back into the possession of “the local police," otherwise (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/20/did-the-united-nations-give-rockets-to-hamas.html) known as the terrorist group Hamas.
This week, UNRWA supplies and building materials had been found (http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/27/idf-commander-hamas-using-unrwa-gear-to-build-tunnels/) in Hamas’s tunnel infrastructure, which has been used to smuggle weapons and carry out attacks on the State of Israel.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/o4CA4ilA7jKZ3Ue5rPLVagRg4S05wRebAyJCh_aBmeZGDQ8zkR 9Zdunaa4Gt7yuP5mM591ZY1432K02JJcKpZrwu-HI0TihKV8LqtcZxsfUAhCxnK1wahSRBIAey1XrUHA

The UN agency has a well-documented (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/17/20-Rockets-Found-Stored-At-UN-Children-s-School-In-Gaza) history of using their US taxpayer-funded facilities to promote anti-Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda. It has in the past been accused of aiding and abetting radical Islamists in Gaza and elsewhere.
UNRWA was created in 1949 to provide relief and public works programs for displaced Arab refugees that had formerly inhabited the British mandate of Palestine. UNRWA is currently the largest agency-subdivision of the entire UN, employing over 30,000 staff. UNRWA has objectively failed in its primary goal of finding homes for those it has deemed “refugees”. From 1949 to present day, refugees recognized by UNRWA has grown from 750,000 to 5,000,000 people.

[FBD]

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/11/israel-and-the-u-s-created-hamas-hezbollah-and-other-terrorists-via-blowback.html

United Press International reported in 2002:

According to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.Israel “aided Hamas directly — the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),” said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel’s support for Hamas “was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,” said a former senior CIA official.

According to documents United Press International obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were “weak and dormant” until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies.

After 1967, a great part of the success of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was due to their activities among the refugees of the Gaza Strip. The cornerstone of the Islamic movements success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da’wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many who were living on the edge.

“Social influence grew into political influence,” first in the Gaza Strip, then on the West Bank, said an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement’s spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini’s Iran.

***

Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One U.S. intelligence source who asked not to be named said that not only was Hamas being funded as a “counterweight” to the PLO, Israeli aid had another purpose: “To help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were dangerous terrorists.”

In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could only listen to debates on policy and identify Hamas members who “were dangerous hard-liners,” the official said.

In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.

But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: “The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place,” said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.

“Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with,” he said.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




http://www.sott.net/article/282780-An-Israeli-soldiers-realization-that-the-war-against-Palestinians-is-an-excuse-for-the-Israeli-army-to-test-their-new-weapons-before-they-sell-them-to-other-regimes


And during this time I am discovering something amazing. The more I go in looking for occupation, the more I find money. And I don't understand, so I am going deeper and deeper and then in 2010 I am getting into a very interesting story about how the Israeli government and Israeli army was selling a new tear gas canister to the police and government of Singapore people. They are buying tear canisters to fight their own protests in their country. And during this time I am looking and I am saying, "Israel is selling tear gas canisters?!"

So I am going into the website of this minister of security in Israel and I am finding out that they are saying that, "Israel just concluded a deal with the Singapore government of selling the best tear gas canister ever produced and tried by the Israeli army". And it mentioned there a few lines later that this tear gas canister was proven to be "the deadliest ever".

And I am going back and I am saying, "Wait... Tried the tear gas canister? Who would agree to try...?"

And then I understand. They are trying their weapons every day. Not in labs, down there in the field. I was trying their weapons in Biilin, in Ni'lin, in Hebron, in East Jerusalem [and other Palestinian communities], we are trying the weapons every day, and then we are selling them outside. And I can't believe the things that I am seeing, so I am going deeper and deeper and then I realized... You remember these guys, the young guys who threw stones at the beginning of the protests? They were not Palestinians. They were actually an undercover unit of the Israeli army, looking like me, Arab-Jews, disguised as Palestinians inside these villages starting a riot, starting something, so that the Israeli army will have a good excuse to start shooting the place up and testing the weapons!

And the more I go deeper the more I can't understand. Is this for real? How long is this going for? How much money are we making? I am going in and in and then I discovered. In the last 30-40 years - and this is a very, very partial list - this is the list of the dictatorships and regimes that the Israeli government, the Israeli army, is trading weapons with: trading knowledge with, trading technology or training their soldiers by themselves in those countries. The last 40 years we were involved in the worst dictatorships and regimes in the world. And we are making a killing out of it. Literally. We are making so much money out of it.

And then I understand. This is not an occupation. It's a laboratory. Sometimes as a soldier I would infuse poison to Palestinians. Sometimes as a protestor I would run away with Palestinians and be a lab rat. But all this time, we are trying weapons out and selling them out there. It's the source of everything. It's not the religion, it's not the land, there's a lot, a lot of money, and I understand that I am standing in the wrong place. And I am moving to New York City, from Jerusalem, it's a big change. And for the last 3 years in NYC I am researching the relationship between our army and your [U.S.] army. Our government and your government and all the money that flows in the middle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8



He goes on to say how an interaction with a Maryland police officer gives him more perspective. When Eran says he is from Israel, the police officer replies:

"Oh men, you guys are bad asses, you know how to silence the one that opposes you, you know how to come down, nobody disobeys you, you guys are the best!"

And I am saying, "I don't think you know a lot about the Israeli army, so, you know, never mind..."

He says, "Oh no no, I just came back from there."

I say, "What? As a tourist?"

He says, "No, with the Maryland police, we just came back from training with your military and your police.

I say, "What?"

He says, "You know all of our police force here in the U.S. is going few weeks to Israel and train with your army and your police."

Then before I leave his [police officer] car I am asking, "Is there a chance you know Mr Efrati? My father, the head of the investigation of Jerusalem police?"

And the guy takes out his cell phone and flips his pictures, and he got a picture with my dad, in the middle of the night, in Washington DC. and I am just blown away, I am going out of the car and I am calling my dad in Jerusalem and I am saying "Dad, what the hell?!" And my dad is telling me, "Oh come on Eran, don't be naive! You know when NYPD got an office in Tel Aviv, right? You know we got an office in NYC, right? Come on, we are working together to protect you."

And then I understand. It wasn't the first time, but that was my closure.

For years we are doing these kind of lectures, very different kinds of lectures and talking with communities here in the U.S. telling them that all they need to do is take care of their community and it's going to be fine. Every one of us will take care of our community, but you should know that what's going on in Palestine is a humanitarian crisis. And I am going around and I am telling them, I learned something growing up. All of us want to be on the right place at the right time when history is knocking on the door. And history is knocking right now. Really loud in Palestine, and all of you need to be on the right side in this humanitarian case. But if you don't care about Palestinians after these lectures, I don't care. And if you don't care about us Israelis asking for your help to stop the apartheid regime in Israel, I am fine with that also.

But you guys should know: you are next in line. The next one who will die from a tear gas canister, it will be in Denver, it will be in Oakland, in San Francisco... It is happening here already. It's happening to different people, to people of color, to immigrants, it's already happening, you guys are next in line. The next one who will die out of police brutality will be one of your sons, or your daughters, in a protest. Because they are training together: your police training with our army. Our army is training them on how to take care of the "enemy". Because Palestinians are our "enemy". But when they come back, you are their enemy. All this time, when we are taking care of our community - I was taking care of mine, and you were trying to take care of yours - they (the government, the police) are organizing together, globally, to oppress us. We need to start organizing globally to resist them. And that starts in Palestine, right now. Stopping the training there, we'll stop it here. That's why I joined in 2005 the Civil Society Call for the Palestinians for Boycott Divestment and Sanction on the state of Israel, taking it out from the source. Non-violently. Taking the money out of the equation.

Israel started Hamas. It was a project of Shin Bet, which had a feeling that they could use it to hem in the PLO.



“In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel’s control over the occupied territories.”

In a conscious effort to undermine the Palestine Liberation Organization and the leadership of Yasser Arafat, in 1978 the government of then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin approved the application of Sheik Ahmad Yassin to start a “humanitarian” organization known as the Islamic Association, or Mujama. The roots of this Islamist group were in the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, and this was the seed that eventually grew into Hamas – but not before it was amply fertilized and nurtured with Israeli funding and political support.

Begin and his successor, Yitzhak Shamir, launched an effort to undercut the PLO, creating the so-called Village Leagues, composed of local councils of handpicked Palestinians who were willing to collaborate with Israel – and, in return, were put on the Israeli payroll. Sheik Yassin and his followers soon became a force within the Village Leagues. This tactical alliance between Yassin and the Israelis was based on a shared antipathy to the militantly secular and leftist PLO: the Israelis allowed Yassin’s group to publish a newspaper and set up an extensive network of charitable organizations, which collected funds not only from the Israelis but also from Arab states opposed to Arafat.

Ami Isseroff, writing on MideastWeb, shows how the Israelis deliberately promoted the Islamists of the future Hamas by helping them turn the Islamic University of Gaza into a base from which the group recruited activists – and the suicide bombers of tomorrow. As the only higher-education facility in the Gaza strip, and the only such institution open to Palestinians since Anwar Sadat closed Egyptian colleges to them, IUG contained within its grounds the seeds of the future Palestinian state. When a conflict arose over religious issues, however, the Israeli authorities sided with the Islamists against the secularists of the Fatah-PLO mainstream.


http://i.tmgrup.com.tr/dailysabah/2014/07/31/HaberDetay/1406824133585.jpg

[FBD]

changes perspective a bit when you have some history, dunnit?

[Lambchop]

I'm going to watch that IDF soldier's video tonight.

BTW there's a new video showing Israel bombing Palestinian civilians, paramedics and journalists.

Google The Moment a rapid of Israeli Airstrike Hit Civilians, Journalists & Ambulance *HD* *6mins footage*

(It's the LiveLeak link)

[Loser]

FBD, that's all bullshit.

Hamas started as a breakaway faction of the muslim brotherhood in egypt in the mid 80's.


As for your picture of the sniper...It's proven to be a fake.

Keep trying.

[DemonGeminiX]

Hamas and Israel agreed to a 72-hour cease-fire. The cease-fire starts and then Hamas abducts an Israeli soldier. Cease-fire over. Israel needs to wipe these fuckers off the map.

[FBD]

FBD, that's all bullshit.

Hamas started as a breakaway faction of the muslim brotherhood in egypt in the mid 80's.


Keep trying.

trying? lol. go ahead and ignore the cultivation of these things by israel if you want, that's your choice, I'm not trying to sway your judgement. this isnt like 9-11 where you have absolutely painfully clear smoking guns, incontrovertible evidence of the government purposefully doing the whole shit.

regardless of the authenticity of that sniper picture - what of this israeli soldier's story? most people that dont want to consider that israel isnt always right wont even watch it. (kinda like those who are well indoctrinated enough on 9-11 that they refuse to see the sun in the sky staring at them)

[Loser]

I'm not saying Israel is always correct with some of the shit they do, and they have done some stupid shit in the past. Name one country that hasn't done dumb shit other then best korea...

But in this case, right here and now, they are doing nothing more then defending themselves.

I would have no problem, what so ever, with israel occupying gaza until they completely destroy hamas. As is their right to do so.

[RBP]

trying? lol. go ahead and ignore the cultivation of these things by israel if you want, that's your choice, I'm not trying to sway your judgement. this isnt like 9-11 where you have absolutely painfully clear smoking guns, incontrovertible evidence of the government purposefully doing the whole shit.

regardless of the authenticity of that sniper picture - what of this israeli soldier's story? most people that dont want to consider that israel isnt always right wont even watch it. (kinda like those who are well indoctrinated enough on 9-11 that they refuse to see the sun in the sky staring at them)

One non-mod's rant in response...

You know, it's one thing to believe the conspiracies on 9/11. However, "painfully clear, incontrovertible evidence" that only those who are "so indoctrinated that they refuse to see [your truth]" is fucking insulting. I think we do a pretty decent job of respecting opinions here without going overboard to say other members are morons. You are pretty clear in that post that you consider anyone who doesn't believe your version of events (what an overwhelming majority of the world considers a paranoid fantasy) to be a brainless dolt incapable of independent rational thought. I choose not to indulge your interesting viewpoints, but I respect your right to have them. It's about time you gave the same consideration to the rest of the members here.

[Hal-9000]

When you get down to the short hairs, the majority of posts are opinions. Your opinion is formed based on a simple combination of the stimuli you've encountered on the subject... and your internal belief system that's comprised of your education and direct life experiences. Two people could read the same 10000 combined words relating to a world event and come away with different viewpoints regarding what happened.

Until one of us is directly involved with any of the posted articles, we really are sifting through links, images, sounds and making a somewhat educated guess about what happened or what should happen.


I'm pontificating on and simplifying RBP's post down to the moron level :lol: In fact, feel free to use the abbreviated form mor'n in my honor :lol:


Great post RBP, no one likes being called a sheeple

[Hal-9000]

I forgot to mention that I do enjoy hearing different viewpoints and I love creative thinking....questioning the official party line


and I'm lookin right at you FBD :x



:thumbsup:

[FBD]

I understand where you're coming from....but it remains that anyone I've ever encountered that sincerely looks at enough of the data has come to the same conclusion wrt 911, and it invariably has been fact that everyone who still refuses to believe the truth of it has but skimmed keywords and has never even given the thought a serious entertaining. When faced with no other recourse, its "man that happened 13 years ago, why you still harpin on that."

That some of you still hold the opinion of many a sheeple on the subject is...not a surprising coincidence, given what the government has given the media to present. If I truly thought you guys were sheeple, I wouldnt care. Its like being real close to a hardcore italian, if they aint yellin at ya, then you should be worried. If they are yellin at ya, its only because they care.

[Lambchop]

According to the official United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs report, Palestine did not start the latest violence!

The three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped on the 12th of June 2014.

On the 11th of June, Israel bombed and killed two Palestinians on a motorcycle, one being a 10 year old.

Here's the report:


On 11 June, the Israeli Air Force targeted an alleged
member of an armed group riding on a motorcycle
together with a ten-year old child, in the Beit Lahiya
area. The man died instantly and the child, who
sustained serious injuries, died three days later;
two civilian bystanders were also injured.

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_protection_of_civilians_weekly_report_201 4_6_19_english.pdf

(Page 4)

Why does our media tell us that the Palestinians provoked this when it was the Israelis? :shock:

[FBD]

because history is always written by the victors

why do you think we have such quaint notions such as

fdr's alphabet soup of government spending "saved" us from the depression
they hate us for our freedoms
currency is as good as gold
our government represents us
voting will change the outcome
etc
etc