How is the civilized world supposed to handle Islamic terrorism going forward?

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Me and Goof were talking about this in another thread a little while ago in light of the attacks in Paris yesterday. There have been major Islamic terrorist attacks all over the world, first by Al Qaeda and now by ISIS. And I'm sure that it will keep happening because every time one group disappears, two more pop-up in its place. The United States has been hit multiple times (both times it was the Twin Towers that were targeted), England has been hit, Spain has been hit, France has now been hit multiple times, not to mention attacks in Asia and Africa as well.

There is obviously no simple solution to this global problem, but what can be done. It's ridiculous that these people, no, these animals, are allowed to do this. Short of laying waste to several countries in the Middle East and exterminating them, what can be done?

[Goofy]

Truth is, our governments have brought this upon us by constantly invading countries and conflicts that have fuck all to do with us.......... how to cure it, fucked if i know :| Problem is these fuckers are spread worldwide now, guaranteed there's sleeper cells in most countries in the west just waiting for the nod. Personally i think it's time this Islam pish was outlawed over here........ the UK isn't a fucking muslim country.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Agreed that some of it is our own fault (the West), but it goes beyond that, especially with ISIS. They've declared that they want the entire world to be Islam and they will kill those that don't convert. How are you supposed to deal with that kind of madness? And talking about outlawing Islam and exterminating the terrorists will have people calling us Nazis for daring tothink that way.

[Goofy]

:hitler:

Fuck them

[Teh One Who Knocks]

And the other problem that the West has in dealing with this are the Russians and the Chinese, they always block EVERYTHING in the UN that is proposed by the West in the Middle East.

[Jezter]

Send me in! I volunteer to become the new Simo Häyhä in A Finn vs. ISIS battle.

[Starchild]

This was always going to be the problem with the free movement of Syrians (etc.) across Europe. They have infiltrated most european countries more-or-less unchecked. We Europeans do like to do good, at least be seen to do good and this is now coming to bite us on the ass. I suggested that something like this would happen and it will again, it would seem that we are powerless to do anything about it. The governments of Europe are hell-bent on providing a place to live.

It struck me as strange when watching the news footage a month or so ago, seeing all these men of fighting age walking away from something that they could fight against, now we all know why.

This will happen in other capital cities and centres of large population.

What to do about it? Trouble is that governments obviously won't act and ultimately I wonder if it will get to the point where the public round on Muslims generally and they won't be safe to even walk the streets.

Whatever happens, this cannot carry on unchecked but what is likely? Invade Syria? Depose Assad? Create a power-vacuum? Didn't work in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya did it? Boot Muslims out of Europe? That won't happen either.



My thoughts are with the French, may their dead Rest In Peace

Vive la France!

[RBP]

There are a few big problems. Obama and his ilk are loathe to admit their political perspective on eliminating extremism with kindness and understanding was an abject failure. The Arab Spring was not at all a positive development in the region as they told us; it was disastrous.

Second, we are not honest about following the money and disclosing who pouts what money on what side, then holding them to account.

Third, we either have to decide to be at war or not. Half-assed, soft, limiting rules of engagement put us at a horrid disadvantage.

Fourth, if we decide to kill them, we will kill civilians in large numbers in that region. Either accept that or accept the new reality. They are not bound by ANY rules of warfare, no Geneva Convention, no sense of humanity. Fighting a uncivil force with civil rules will lose every time.

Fifth, it needs to be felt at home. I am not sure about Europe, but for Canada and the US, we basically feel no impact financially or in lifestyle. This is unprecedented. War has to mean sacrifice as a nation, and not just by military families. We are clueless and only care about how it impacts our lifestyle. If we feel no impact, we don't give a fuck. Crazy and unfortunate, but real. I saw a girl's posts last night that embodies this point. The first post was about it being horrifying what happened in Paris, followed quickly by "but I got my nails did".

:2cents:

[Godfather]

I've been really frustrated at the debates on Twitter. Obviously 'Muslims' was a top-3 trending word. It seems like the prevailing posts are 'It's not all Muslims' or 'The word peace is in our catchphrase' or 'I'm Muslim but why should I have to apologize'. Ok...

If that's the case - why aren't wealthy Islamic countries taking in refugees? Why is it that when a homegrown terrorist does something awful, their friends and family just go 'well that's not us' instead of actually being part of a solution. Why is it so obvious that several Islamic countries fund IS? Qatar, UAE, Saudis - they don't give a fuck.

I have respect for the Kurds, who are mostly Muslim and clearly an effective force against IS, but it's not enough. By and large, polls of Muslims worldwide have shown 'moderate' Muslims have ideals roughly in line with 17th century Europeans. I don't see us being friends any time soon.

ISIS attacks us because they want us to enter an exhausting war and implode. They know that when we chop off one of their heads, two more pop up. And like RBP said, we have a lot less tolerance for war. We need to finish this thing once and for all otherwise our children will still be dealing with this bullshit.

I'm not in favor of taking in refugees. I am in favor of hunting extremists relentlessly until their lands pose us no threat, having more tolerance for collateral damage (take the lawyers out of the fucking equation every time we drop a bomb) and then leave them to figure shit out themselves.

It's just so hard to know how to do that right though. We have to do this better than our response to 9/11 (wasted billions on corruption and half-built schools, loss of privacy for no extra security (TSA), a society of ill veterans, a decade of war, too much reliance on sketchy contractors, leaving countries in ruin perfect for new enemies like ISIS to pop up etc. etc.).

Great question Lance

[Goofy]

http://i.imgur.com/HcVFX9g.jpg

[Goofy]

Never heard a thing about this......... suppose it shows how bias the media can be!

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="5hP5bBs"><a href="//imgur.com/5hP5bBs">My heart goes out to the people of Paris after the terrible attacks that took place. I am not trying to diminish this horrible tragedy in any way, but I haven&amp;#039;t seen too much about this one yet and wanted to create awareness. Yesterday, suicide bombers attacked Beirut, killing at least 37 (some reports say up to 43) and injuring 181. It is the largest attack in Beirut in 25 years, and the bombers specifically targeted civilians. ISIS is claiming responsibility. Lebanon is currently mourning its dead and trying to recover, and hospitals throughout the area are encouraging people to donate blood and keep away from the gates so that ambulances and staff could more easily get in and out. If you are in Lebanon or France, I hope you and your family are safe. My heart goes out to the people affected by these atrocious attacks, and I will do everything I can to help.On a side note, please donate blood if you can. You could save up to three lives every time you donate. tl;dr Suicide Bombing in Beirut yesterday killed dozensSource: &lt;a rel=&quot;noreferrer nofollow&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; href=&quot;http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34795797&quot;&gt;http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34795797&lt;/a&gt;</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[DemonGeminiX]

I didn't see that, either, Goof. Terrible.

[DemonGeminiX]

How do you kill an ideology?

[Hal-9000]

How do you kill an ideology?

The very nature of terrorism (cowardice) makes any positive, blanket retaliations almost impossible. Touching on what GF and RBP mentioned, even when major attacks like 9/11 are leveled against us, the measures we took in response were questionable and puzzling at times. Not trying to start a war here with a critique, but the 'preventative' measures at airports (only 100 ml of liquids allowed) and the direction the military focused it's efforts towards Hussein and trying to find hidden caches of whatevers, diluted the original search and took it down the muddy back alley of finances and who was backing who.

It's time to change our response protocols and if that means stepping on people's comfort zones at airports across the world and *gasp* being heavy handed and profiling certain groups and races, that is part of the new solution. Those fucks in Paris did a coordinated hit of multiple locations and planning like that isn't done over one afternoon face to face chat in a coffee shop.

If we don't start changing from Obama's soft view on world conflict and get back to a more Reagan-esque boot stomping solution, we'll be reading these stories forever and always attempting to respond, while the rats scurry away once more into the dark sewers.

[Godfather]

and the direction the military focused it's efforts towards Hussein and trying to find hidden caches of whatevers, diluted the original search and took it down the muddy back alley of finances and who was backing who. .

Truly one of the great fuckups in the modern history of Western foreign policy. Destabilizing Iraq has destabilized the entire region.

I'm sure Bernie Sanders isn't a favorite around here, but he correctly predicted this would happen after we left Iraq in *2002* (while others were spouting rhetoric and throwing France under the bus Re: Freedom Fries). Dick Cheney said the same thing in the 90's too, but I guess he forgot his words.

How do we undo it now. Not to say we necessarily put back in dictators... but are these Islamic countries really ready for us to impose our democracy?

[Hal-9000]

Didn't Cheney have a vested interest in the direction the 9/11 search went? Don't want to get too Micheal Moore here...

I was thinking about installing our choices of leaders/democracy too. It's been done with effect in the past but it seems that radical Muslim views morph with the times and always gain traction no matter what. It would have to be a wholesale (like US, France, Can, UK support etc) change across the Middle East, leaving no stone unturned. As everyone here knows and simplistic as it sounds, support has to come from the civilians and millions of locals will never jump up on that horse....they hate western influence and past actions and that hatred has been installed into generations.

[Hal-9000]

I mean we're talking about modern civilizations that today, stone and rape women for reading books. It's too bad that we couldn't appeal to the greater mass of peace loving inhabitants and reward them for outing possible terrorist threats.

But that will never happen because they live a society that's steeped so deeply in fear, six year olds get molested and the entire block looks the other way and considers that behavior normal. It's the sad truth that people over there have no choice in media or outside influence. They literally only know what they get fed by the political factions. So most of them don't even consider there could be a better way or a better standard of life. They put their heads down and accept, because it's all they know. Like living in North Korea times 1000...

Hearts and minds of the people...not saying it's the solution but it is real and it is what needs to change over there.

[RBP]

Hearts and minds of the people...not saying it's the solution but it is real and it is what needs to change over there.

I am over that idea. Given the opportunity, good people will do good things. Hearts and minds are meaningless if they are brutally ruled, and that is true whether it's a dictator we can tolerate or an ideology we cannot. Godfather comment about imposing our democracy makes me bristle a bit also. That's a matter of perspective. You could just as easily call it giving people an opportunity for self-determination and freedom from brutal enforcement of governmental controls, be it Saddam or Taliban or ISIS. It isn't about the US imposing it's version of democracy; to me, that misses the point.

The situation is analogous to world hunger and sexual victimization of women in developing countries. You know why we can't solve those issues and never will? It isn't hearts and minds, it isn't a lack of money, it isn't a lack of food or technology. It is a lack of security, a lack of effective policing, and a lack of effective criminal justice systems that are current run by corruption with a severe lack of resources.

None of the other things are possible without security.

Ironically, ISIS is exactly what the call the west, imperialist crusaders. You cannot and will not change the hearts and minds of the brutal ideologues. And we shouldn't even try. Meet evil on it's own terms, and eliminate it.

[RBP]

Truly one of the great fuckups in the modern history of Western foreign policy. Destabilizing Iraq has destabilized the entire region.

I'm sure Bernie Sanders isn't a favorite around here, but he correctly predicted this would happen after we left Iraq in *2002* (while others were spouting rhetoric and throwing France under the bus Re: Freedom Fries). Dick Cheney said the same thing in the 90's too, but I guess he forgot his words.

How do we undo it now. Not to say we necessarily put back in dictators... but are these Islamic countries really ready for us to impose our democracy?

I don't think it's that simple. I can't simply say that the Iraq war caused this. That vacuum may have provided a base of operations, but the equation also includes a lot of other factors, many of which I mentioned earlier. It's like asking if the Soviets created the Taliban by invading Afghanistan or if the CIA did by arming and training them. The answer is Yes to both.

Would you be saying the same thing if Obama had not approached Iraq with such disdain, with the only priority to get out, fulfill a campaign promise, and bash his predecessor? As part of THAT ideology, he accelerated the release of Gitmo terrorists, supported popular uprisings across the region, touted the Arab Spring as a great victory for the people, and is largely culpable for the foreign policy clusterfuck in the very country that drove the Paris attacks - Syria.

So yes, leaving Iraq before it was stable was a complete disaster. And yes, Bernie and others predicted it might be. But there is plenty of blame to go around; I can't do an Obama and just blame Bush for everything.

(I am a Bernie fan by the way - my favorite democrat in the race.)

[Loser]

I'm going to give a very generic and brutal answer to this question.

Take the leash off Israel.

Done.

[Godfather]

I don't think it's that simple. I can't simply say that the Iraq war caused this. That vacuum may have provided a base of operations, but the equation also includes a lot of other factors, many of which I mentioned earlier. It's like asking if the Soviets created the Taliban by invading Afghanistan or if the CIA did by arming and training them. The answer is Yes to both.

Would you be saying the same thing if Obama had not approached Iraq with such disdain, with the only priority to get out, fulfill a campaign promise, and bash his predecessor? As part of THAT ideology, he accelerated the release of Gitmo terrorists, supported popular uprisings across the region, touted the Arab Spring as a great victory for the people, and is largely culpable for the foreign policy clusterfuck in the very country that drove the Paris attacks - Syria.

So yes, leaving Iraq before it was stable was a complete disaster. And yes, Bernie and others predicted it might be. But there is plenty of blame to go around; I can't do an Obama and just blame Bush for everything.

(I am a Bernie fan by the way - my favorite democrat in the race.)

True. I'll definitely cede your point that it's an oversimplification. The middle east is just far more complicated and a long-standing issue than you can blame on two Presidents of one country.

[Hal-9000]

I am over that idea. Given the opportunity, good people will do good things. Hearts and minds are meaningless if they are brutally ruled, and that is true whether it's a dictator we can tolerate or an ideology we cannot. Godfather comment about imposing our democracy makes me bristle a bit also. That's a matter of perspective. You could just as easily call it giving people an opportunity for self-determination and freedom from brutal enforcement of governmental controls, be it Saddam or Taliban or ISIS. It isn't about the US imposing it's version of democracy; to me, that misses the point.

The situation is analogous to world hunger and sexual victimization of women in developing countries. You know why we can't solve those issues and never will? It isn't hearts and minds, it isn't a lack of money, it isn't a lack of food or technology. It is a lack of security, a lack of effective policing, and a lack of effective criminal justice systems that are current run by corruption with a severe lack of resources.

None of the other things are possible without security.

Ironically, ISIS is exactly what the call the west, imperialist crusaders. You cannot and will not change the hearts and minds of the brutal ideologues. And we shouldn't even try. Meet evil on it's own terms, and eliminate it.

This would be one of the results of the so called installed government and ideals. From your post: You could just as easily call it giving people an opportunity for self-determination and freedom from brutal enforcement of governmental controls.

I disagree that it's not possible. People can make the right decision with as you rightly mention, the ongoing security and support of the new ideals. It's simplifying to nth degree but saying if you can provide a better way, people as whole will do the right thing. Another simplistic view is saying - If you can change the structure of politics within a country and have the money/resources to continue the new structure, you're eliminating the old fears. I believe that's a component of what has to happen, along with the actual initial elimination of the militant terrorists. Likely a pipe dream but I admit to seeing a two step process. First the hammer, then the velvet glove of support.

[RBP]

This would be one of the results of the so called installed government and ideals. From your post: You could just as easily call it giving people an opportunity for self-determination and freedom from brutal enforcement of governmental controls.

I disagree that it's not possible. People can make the right decision with as you rightly mention, the ongoing security and support of the new ideals. It's simplifying to nth degree but saying if you can provide a better way, people as whole will do the right thing. Another simplistic view is saying - If you can change the structure of politics within a country and have the money/resources to continue the new structure, you're eliminating the old fears. I believe that's a component of what has to happen, along with the actual initial elimination of the militant terrorists. Likely a pipe dream but I admit to seeing a two step process. First the hammer, then the velvet glove of support.

I actually think we agree, Hal. Provide the opportunity and win people over to the idea of positive self-determination. My objection was based on long standing arguments that the middle east will never be won militarily. Therefore, the theory goes, we have to seek to understand them and win their hearts and minds to bring about long lasting peace. But when you say, "first the hammer then the velvet glove", that makes sense. Just military won't do it, no. But neither will just a hearts and minds approach - it's pointless if they can never express it or act upon it. The evil needs to be eradicated, but therein lies the rub. They also feel the evil needs to be eradicated, but their definition is western society.

There is a part of me that thinks we should seek only to contain. It's a difficult philosophical question. What is our obligation? Can we sit back while we know that brutality exists? The odd thing is that we pick and choose what we are outraged enough about to act. Middle east: We cannot let that exist! North Korea: As long as they only abuse their own people. Really? Starvation and death after a natural disaster: activate billions in emergency military response, hold telethons, flood the area with support. Daily death, brutality, starvation, torture, sexual exploitation in Africa and India: not our problem as a nation. Our selective outrage is glaring and confusing.

[RBP]

I'm going to give a very generic and brutal answer to this question.

Take the leash off Israel.

Done.

Ok, I'll bite. How do you do that without immediately making it a nation-state world war? There is no way in hell the Arab nations are going to stay neutral and let Israel take care of this.

[DemonGeminiX]

The civilized must become uncivilized. Fight evil with evil. Eradicate Islam. Burn all Qurans and all Muslim literature. Destroy all Muslim states and governments. Kill all Muslims in the world save children less than 5 years old. Put those children in educational institutions with a specialized regimen of pro-west propaganda and raise them to be functional members of western society. Feed them a steady diet of Christianity. Keep tabs on their development. If they diverge from the program, execute them. Kill the ideology. As long as one Quran survives, as long as one Muslim survives, the potential for hard-line Islamic extremist ideology to survive is too great and cannot be suffered to exist. Erase all mention of Islam from all historical references and all written accounts. Destroy all monuments dedicated to it. Forbid those old enough to remember from speaking or writing about it. In time, Islam will pass away from memory. In four or five generations, no one alive will remember that it existed or what people did in its name.

[RBP]

The civilized must become uncivilized. Fight evil with evil. Eradicate Islam. Burn all Qurans and all Muslim literature. Destroy all Muslim states and governments. Kill all Muslims in the world save children less than 5 years old. Put those children in educational institutions with a specialized regimen of pro-west propaganda and raise them to be functional members of western society. Feed them a steady diet of Christianity. Keep tabs on their development. If they diverge from the program, execute them. Kill the ideology. As long as one Quran survives, as long as one Muslim survives, the potential for hard-line Islamic extremist ideology to survive is too great and cannot be suffered to exist. Erase all mention of Islam from all historical references and all written accounts. Destroy all monuments dedicated to it. Forbid those old enough to remember from speaking or writing about it. In time, Islam will pass away from memory. In four or five generations, no one alive will remember that it existed or what people did in its name.

:shock:

[DemonGeminiX]

:hitler:

[RBP]

I'll heat the ovens, Satan.

[Hal-9000]

I actually think we agree, Hal. Provide the opportunity and win people over to the idea of positive self-determination. My objection was based on long standing arguments that the middle east will never be won militarily. Therefore, the theory goes, we have to seek to understand them and win their hearts and minds to bring about long lasting peace. But when you say, "first the hammer then the velvet glove", that makes sense. Just military won't do it, no. But neither will just a hearts and minds approach - it's pointless if they can never express it or act upon it. The evil needs to be eradicated, but therein lies the rub. They also feel the evil needs to be eradicated, but their definition is western society.

There is a part of me that thinks we should seek only to contain. It's a difficult philosophical question. What is our obligation? Can we sit back while we know that brutality exists? The odd thing is that we pick and choose what we are outraged enough about to act. Middle east: We cannot let that exist! North Korea: As long as they only abuse their own people. Really? Starvation and death after a natural disaster: activate billions in emergency military response, hold telethons, flood the area with support. Daily death, brutality, starvation, torture, sexual exploitation in Africa and India: not our problem as a nation. Our selective outrage is glaring and confusing.

You are right, we do agree. I didn't think to mention it would be a multi-step process that would have to be then tended after the fact for decades. No offense but the US has a long history of fighting in an area, then leaving the aftermath so to speak. I'm not saying that the original intent wasn't a good one and more to the point necessary, it just isn't feasible to do the after the fact clean up (velvet glove) across the world in that many theaters of conflict.

You mentioned obligation. I used to think that America oversteps it's bounds and should back off. But that's not feasible in any real world scenario anymore. Back off from Vietnam, maybe...back off from an ever growing force of terrorists? Not a chance. Like the evening news is saying right now, it has to be a concerted effort from America AND it's allies, and it has to start now.

I've read so much about your last few lines. The indigenous population hates even the idea of 'the enemy' stepping in and attempting to change their world. What does it really take for the natives to understand their world is completely wrong and yes, there is a better, more humane way? Part of me thinks that they have to get past the tipping point. Meaning their world has to become completely ruled by the animals that are radicals, we have to back way off and maybe then....they'll understand that those 'leaders' are barbarians and their 'better world' through radical Islam is really a nightmare.

If you've never seen the other side of the fence and your leaders are lying and telling you constantly what your side is, why entertain the idea there is a better life available? It's a non starter. Just as I think we have to put the hammer down, we also have to have the same vehemence after the fact when we're tending the hearts and minds portion of the program.

[Hal-9000]

I just read DGX's post and am reminded of a certain Nietzsche quote :lol:

[DemonGeminiX]

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

[Hal-9000]

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.


*touches nose :thumbsup:

[Hal-9000]

It does bring up probably the most base point of this thread and Lance's original question...how much is too much?

You're dealing with people who cut heads off, light women on fire and then film it and consider it promotional material for their cause. What is the opposing force and equal reaction?

[Muddy]

Abololish political correctness and let the chips fall where they may..

[DemonGeminiX]

It does bring up probably the most base point of this thread and Lance's original question...how much is too much?

You're dealing with people who cut heads off, light women on fire and then film it and consider it promotional material for their cause. What is the opposing force and equal reaction?

They're willing to die for their cause. If you look back in history, they always get beaten back, then they always come back. They've been causing trouble for the world, gotten beaten back, and have risen back up to cause more trouble later over and over and over again, for centuries.

If we get in a time machine and go back to the times of antiquity, how many religions and societies do you think we'll encounter that we never knew existed, because they were wiped out and erased from memory? That's what invading and conquering forces did back in the day. They eradicated all trace of their enemies, erased them and everything associated with them from the face of this Earth. It's a terrible horrible idea... but it's an extremely effective strategy. And if they had their way, they would do it to us.

[Hal-9000]

*bullhorn*

Okay, all Muslims who think infidels should die stand on the left!

Every other Muslim, kindly step to the right!




see ya lefties :tup:

[Loser]

Ok, I'll bite. How do you do that without immediately making it a nation-state world war? There is no way in hell the Arab nations are going to stay neutral and let Israel take care of this.

You honestly believe they are staying neutral now? If you do you're naive, sorry. Almost all of them harbor radical islamists and do absolutely nothing about it. Most of them, if not all, want Israel off the fucking map. The U.S will do fuck all because they are playing the political correctness police. So the only solution is to pull out completely and let others deal with it.

The only one with the balls and know-how is Israel.

[Hal-9000]

They're willing to die for their cause. If you look back in history, they always get beaten back, then they always come back. They've been causing trouble for the world, gotten beaten back, and have risen back up to cause more trouble later over and over and over again, for centuries.

If we get in a time machine and go back to the times of antiquity, how many religions and societies do you think we'll encounter that we never knew existed, because they were wiped out and erased from memory? That's what invading and conquering forces did back in the day. They eradicated all trace of their enemies, erased them and everything associated with them from the face of this Earth. It's a terrible horrible idea... but it's an extremely effective strategy. And if they had their way, they would do it to us.

Yes if we consider that Egyptians ruled let's say 4500 years ago, what about the civilizations that pre-dated them? Pagan god wars? We believe in this and you believe in that. Since we just demolished 'that' off of the face of the Earth, it no longer exists. It's probably happened more times than we suspect. We've heard the old saying - History is written by the victors. If you despised your enemy to that degree, they cease to become part of history after you eradicate them. At one point somewhere along the line, we became civilized

[Loser]

http://i.imgur.com/FUPgvf7.jpg

[DemonGeminiX]

Of course, I'm being flippant. But to expect these people to rise up to our standards is folly. Extremism has always existed in some form or another, and it probably always will.

The question I posed earlier, I will pose again: How do you kill an ideology? The ideology is the problem. If the idea exists then the problem exists. How do you keep people from entertaining an idea when they're half a world away and raised in a society that's 500 years behind us in philosophical and logical evolution?

[Hal-9000]

Part of the larger question...how do you fight an enemy that believes in their cause so strongly, that they're ready to die for it?

No offense to us, but we just ain't got that sort of commitment to the cause...

[Hal-9000]

Of course, I'm being flippant. But to expect these people to rise up to our standards is folly. Extremism has always existed in some form or another, and it probably always will.

The question I posed earlier, I will pose again: How do you kill an ideology? The ideology is the problem. If the idea exists then the problem exists. How do you keep people from entertaining an idea when they're half a world away and raised in a society that's 500 years behind us in philosophical and logical evolution?

Your short ideology post got me started down this 10 post path :x

[Loser]

Part of the larger question...how do you fight an enemy that believes in their cause so strongly, that they're ready to die for it?

No offense to us, but we just ain't got that sort of commitment to the cause...

Expedite the proccess with some drones. ;)

[Hal-9000]

Expedite the proccess with some drones. ;)

I was actually thinking of huge fleets of drones when typing. If we can't distinguish good folks from the bad when using planes...why not something a tad more intimate?

[RBP]

You honestly believe they are staying neutral now? If you do you're naive, sorry. Almost all of them harbor radical islamists and do absolutely nothing about it. Most of them, if not all, want Israel off the fucking map. The U.S will do fuck all because they are playing the political correctness police. So the only solution is to pull out completely and let others deal with it.

The only one with the balls and know-how is Israel.

I have no delusion that they are neutral. I am suggesting that taking the cuffs off Israel gives them open season, which means we have to retaliate. That's world war faster then you can make ramen.

[Loser]

Israel had zero problems beating every surrounding arab nation last time. ;)

[Godfather]

Hey you guys throw $3 billion their way every year, might as well take your toy out and play with it.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

So much good stuff in here and it's awesome to hear all the opinions, makes me glad that I made the thread and that everyone is joining in :thumbsup:


It's been mentioned in this thread previously (by RBP I believe but it hits to the heart of the 'War on Terror') and it has been backed up with opinions by several other people that have posted in this thread. Every western country fights war using rules, and unfortunately, the governments keep tightening the rules and making it nearly impossible for our militaries to actually wage a war against the terrorists. As was mentioned before, the terrorists have no rules, they don't abide by the Geneva Convention and they have no rules of engagement. Their one and only goal is to kill as many people as possible while scaring as many other people as possible in the process by the sheer brazenness and brutality of their act. They want Westerners to be afraid to go out shopping, go to nightclubs, walk thru a busy park, go to sporting events, they want us all cowering in the corners. Unfortunately, the only way to fight this war is with actual war, not antiseptic tip toe around everything little strikes here and there.

It's time for WW2 style war. We don't need smart bombs, we need carpet bombing. We don't need drones taking out a little shack on the outskirts of a city because there might be terrorists meeting there, we need to level entire cities so that there is nothing left alive. War isn't pretty and it's not supposed to be pretty, there will be collateral damage and we have to be okay with that. Especially when EVERYTHING the terrorists do is collateral damage. And anyone that can stand around and see things like Paris happen, like 9/11 happen, like the Madrid and London attacks happen, and still think that we should fight with kid gloves and issue a 'stern warning' from our respective capitals is at best naive and at worst stupid and oblivious. This is not going to go away, in fact it's spreading and getting worse and if you don't think the next 9/11 isn't already in the works, you have your head in the sand.

Sure, people will call it genocide, but isn't that what the terrorists are trying to do to us? And they are the ones winning this war folks, not us. We are fighting an enemy that still lives with ideals from 1000 years ago. They are the only major religion on the face of the earth that didn't evolve as time moved forward. if anything, they have regressed. It's time to make the mantra of 'either you are with us or you are against us' actually mean something.


/rant

[Muddy]

It will never happen.

But I think we need to reject political correctness and start calling things what they are. The chips will fall where they fall. (and this go's for more than Islamic terrorism)

[Hal-9000]

So much good stuff in here and it's awesome to hear all the opinions, makes me glad that I made the thread and that everyone is joining in :thumbsup:


It's been mentioned in this thread previously (by RBP I believe but it hits to the heart of the 'War on Terror') and it has been backed up with opinions by several other people that have posted in this thread. Every western country fights war using rules, and unfortunately, the governments keep tightening the rules and making it nearly impossible for our militaries to actually wage a war against the terrorists. As was mentioned before, the terrorists have no rules, they don't abide by the Geneva Convention and they have no rules of engagement. Their one and only goal is to kill as many people as possible while scaring as many other people as possible in the process by the sheer brazenness and brutality of their act. They want Westerners to be afraid to go out shopping, go to nightclubs, walk thru a busy park, go to sporting events, they want us all cowering in the corners. Unfortunately, the only way to fight this war is with actual war, not antiseptic tip toe around everything little strikes here and there.

It's time for WW2 style war. We don't need smart bombs, we need carpet bombing. We don't need drones taking out a little shack on the outskirts of a city because there might be terrorists meeting there, we need to level entire cities so that there is nothing left alive. War isn't pretty and it's not supposed to be pretty, there will be collateral damage and we have to be okay with that. Especially when EVERYTHING the terrorists do is collateral damage. And anyone that can stand around and see things like Paris happen, like 9/11 happen, like the Madrid and London attacks happen, and still think that we should fight with kid gloves and issue a 'stern warning' from our respective capitals is at best naive and at worst stupid and oblivious. This is not going to go away, in fact it's spreading and getting worse and if you don't think the next 9/11 isn't already in the works, you have your head in the sand.

Sure, people will call it genocide, but isn't that what the terrorists are trying to do to us? And they are the ones winning this war folks, not us. We are fighting an enemy that still lives with ideals from 1000 years ago. They are the only major religion on the face of the earth that didn't evolve as time moved forward. if anything, they have regressed. It's time to make the mantra of 'either you are with us or you are against us' actually mean something.


/rant

What really scares me is that 9/11 was a spectacle. There's been lots of terror attacks across the world in the past, yet 9/11 was almost a big budget movie in it's visual scope. Planes into the sides of some of the largest skyscrapers in the world, buildings dropping to the ground in the middle of New York city...all on a bright, sunny Tuesday morning.

The verbal response was exhilarating - Everything the politicians told us equaled - We will not be attacked, shame on you, we're bringing the heat now without remorse.

The actual response was part of what the terrorists wanted. We changed our procedures, watched everything more closely and became tentative in our daily lives.

And going out on a limb, the next attack on North American soil will almost have to one-up 9/11. For us to do anything close to what Lance or DGX is mentioning, the catalyst will have to be horrible to the power of 100.

To fight on their terms, our government will have to start ignoring any and all complaints from the public and start a real campaign of shock and awe that wipes out entire cities. There won't be any collateral damage because the term will become obsolete.

So we gain our freedom back and lose our fear... at the cost of our conscience and belief that life is precious.

[Goofy]

The civilized must become uncivilized. Fight evil with evil. Eradicate Islam. Burn all Qurans and all Muslim literature. Destroy all Muslim states and governments. Kill all Muslims in the world save children less than 5 years old. Put those children in educational institutions with a specialized regimen of pro-west propaganda and raise them to be functional members of western society. Feed them a steady diet of Christianity. Keep tabs on their development. If they diverge from the program, execute them. Kill the ideology. As long as one Quran survives, as long as one Muslim survives, the potential for hard-line Islamic extremist ideology to survive is too great and cannot be suffered to exist. Erase all mention of Islam from all historical references and all written accounts. Destroy all monuments dedicated to it. Forbid those old enough to remember from speaking or writing about it. In time, Islam will pass away from memory. In four or five generations, no one alive will remember that it existed or what people did in its name.

:agreed:


















Oh wait, were you being sarcastic? 8-[

[Starchild]

I agree with what Lance said. Precision strikes don't work, it's bigger than that. I'm sure that when these arseholes commit an atrocity our leaders issue them a stern warning that they'll be hunted down etc. They can then feel really good about themselves, get a raging stiffy about how tough they sound and that is that.

The trouble is that it isn't war in the traditional sense, the enemy isn't really an army, they don't wear a uniform but what really pisses me off is that the media and politicians in charge know where these bastards hang out, where the training camps are etc. Surely common sense says that if we have the known locations then let's bomb the fuck out of them? We can't do that, war is illegal and we don't want to infringe their human rights......... I can hear the arguments already. What about those innocents that have lost their lives around the globe, most recently Paris - what about their human rights? How many more will have to die at the hands of these murdering fucktards before someone actually has the brass balls to stand up and say "Right, let's bomb these murdering twats"?

Meh!

[PorkChopSandwiches]

1) Get off of foreign oil, then the money drys up and they go back to playing in the sandbox
2) Stop leaving functioning weaponry in these areas
3) Stop creating and training these groups.

All these people have been installed, trained and armed by the US since the 70's, maybe before. They get trained and "turn" on us. There is no stopping it because its by design. If we really wanted to end this, we could

[PorkChopSandwiches]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6kdi1UXxhY

[DemonGeminiX]

:agreed:

Oh wait, were you being sarcastic? 8-[

Partially, leaning towards "not really".

[Muddy]

http://i66.tinypic.com/ncfot0.jpg

[DemonGeminiX]

:lol:

[Godfather]

It will never happen.

I fully agree with Lance but as a pessimist, I'm almost positive you're right. That's why some military strategists have said the WoT is unwinnable. Not because we can't militarily, but because we won't... Just go and read internet comments. France dropped 20 bombs the day after the attack and you *still see thousands of people whining about how 'violent' we are and how 'an eye for any eye will make the world blind' blah blah blah.

These bleeding hearts have no fucking clue that we are **BY FAR** the most peaceful civilization in the history of humanity, and they have very loud voices.. And so the shackles will remain on I fear :| And this shit will continue to happen...

[RBP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6kdi1UXxhY

No. blah blah blah.

[Hal-9000]

1) Get off of foreign oil, then the money drys up and they go back to playing in the sandbox
2) Stop leaving functioning weaponry in these areas
3) Stop creating and training these groups.

All these people have been installed, trained and armed by the US since the 70's, maybe before. They get trained and "turn" on us. There is no stopping it because its by design. If we really wanted to end this, we could

Hell to the yeah on this....it would be hard to stop using Saudi oil because of the volume. A good start would be to ok the Keystone pipeline, pull up the million barrels per day and send down south to the US refineries and then stop it there. Quit with this whining shit about who is going to do maintenance on the pipeline, make it a true partnership for North America only. You'd have to stop exporting to European countries as well.

The US has funded military groups over there for decades as you mention...stop with the kick starter campaigns for skirmishes. Fund and back only allied countries and not the flavor of the day.

[Hal-9000]

Headline in paper today - Paris tourism sees slump

:| do they even need to write that story?

[Hal-9000]

Muslim woman in Don Mills (Toronto) was picking up her kids at school. She was kicked and punched and the attackers called her a terrorist.

:|

[Goofy]

Muslim woman in Don Mills (Toronto) was picking up her kids at school. She was kicked and punched and the attackers called her a terrorist.

:|

I said it earlier, innocent peaceful muslims will be hurt and/or killed due to fear and anger..........

[Goofy]

Quite a good piece this :ok:



Please don’t say things like, “I stand with France,” or “Those poor French people, victims of that attack!” unless you’re prepared to say and do the following things:
Stop saying “Islam” is about peace and love. It’s not. It’s about submission; the people who really get this are the ones who launch these attacks in the name of their religion.
Stop supporting politicians like Obama, who insist that Islamic nations like Iran have our same fundamental values and can be trusted with billions of dollars in unfrozen assets (Obama’s treaty), and who don’t mean what they say when they want to wipe Israel off the map.
Stop saying we don’t really need a strong military and we cannot, under any circumstances, use the full might of our military arsenal to do things to stop militant Islam in its tracks, to quite literally scare the Allah out of these people.
Unless or until you start to rethink your stance, you have no business expressing compassion towards the victims of people in attacks whose perpetrators – knowingly or not – you aid and support via your positions.
The president of France calls the attacks in Paris by militant ISIS supporters an “act of war.” Excuse me? Haven’t we been at war since at least 9/11? Even going back as far as 1979, when the first openly organized Islamic government, Iran, took Americans hostage and brutalized them for a year before setting them free?
We’re not supposed to admit we’re at war with Islam. But Islam has been at war with everyone else for decades now. And it’s not going to stop.
I am so sick of people saying, “We can’t fight terrorism with violence. We have to understand them and figure out what makes them act this way.”
Envy, brutality and collectivist/social/racial hatred are what make them act this way. They’re not going to change, and they’re not going to stop. By trying to appease and understand them every chance we get, they interpret this as weakness, because it is, from their point-of-view. They respond with more brutality. They’re not ever going to stop, any more than Hitler and the Nazis would have stopped if, instead of taking them on directly, we had said, “Let’s try to understand them.”
You cannot defeat a morally certain enemy without moral certainty. But we do not live in an age of moral self-assertion. It’s considered mean, unkind and politically incorrect.
You do not have moral certainty if you keep insisting that your enemy really does not mean it.
Stop waiting for the “moderate” or life-loving Muslims to come out of the closet and morally condemn their violent brethren. These moderates are nowhere to be found. Either they do not exist, or they’re too weak or frightened to take on the people who do these things in the name of their faith-based philosophy.
Obama has stated that these attackers do not share certain basic, universal values with the rest of us. But Obama is the one who insists we cannot really fight terrorists because they operate underground, without state-sanctioned armies, and the like. Obama is the same one who gave away America’s credibility and unfroze billions in assets to the government of Iran, the one actual government known to sponsor and morally support Islamic terrorism around the world. What business does he have expressing outrage and horror? He might as well be on their side. Because he makes life easier for them, through things like this insane treaty he rammed by the Congress.
So before you rush to show others how sad and angry you are about what happened in Paris, stop to think of the ideas, attitudes and elected officials you’ve been supporting.
Ideas have consequences, and if you support the wrong ones, this is what you get.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

:thumbsup:

[Goofy]

<div id="fb-root"></div><script>(function(d, s, id) { var js, fjs = d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0]; if (d.getElementById(id)) return; js = d.createElement(s); js.id = id; js.src = "//connect.facebook.net/en_GB/sdk.js#xfbml=1&version=v2.3"; fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js, fjs);}(document, 'script', 'facebook-jssdk'));</script><div class="fb-video" data-allowfullscreen="1" data-href="/inthenowrt/videos/vb.276157035868006/545378905612483/?type=3"><div class="fb-xfbml-parse-ignore"><blockquote cite="https://www.facebook.com/inthenowrt/videos/545378905612483/"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/inthenowrt/videos/545378905612483/">BLINDFOLD MUSLIM HUG</a><p>&quot;Hug me if you trust me, I&#039;m told I&#039;m a terrorist&quot;, –Muslim man opens his arms to Parisians#Paris #PlacedelaRepublique #ParisAttacks #Islamophobia #MuslimsAreNotTerrorists</p>Posted by <a href="https://www.facebook.com/inthenowrt/">In the NOW</a> on Monday, 16 November 2015</blockquote></div></div>.

[Goofy]

Hmmm, guess facebook videos don't embed on vbulletin :-k A BBC news piece linked me to the vid