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View Full Version : Fierce debate over monster coal mine



redred
03-11-2017, 12:29 AM
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It would be one of the biggest mines on the planet, occupying an area nearly three times larger than Paris, where world leaders hammered out a landmark agreement to combat climate change in late 2015.
If the A$16.5bn (£10bn; $12.5bn) project goes ahead in Queensland's Galilee Basin - and latest indications are that it will - the coal produced there will emit more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every year than entire countries such as Kuwait and Chile, claim its opponents.
Delayed for six years by a stream of legal challenges and environmental impact assessments, the so-called Carmichael mine - to be developed and operated by the Indian mining giant Adani - has polarised Australians.
Supporters, who include local communities, the federal and Queensland governments, and, naturally, the resources industry, insist that it will bring jobs and prosperity to a depressed region of Queensland.
Critics, on the other hand, among them environmentalists and climate scientists, warn that the 60m tonnes of coal to be dug up annually from Carmichael's 45km (28-mile) pits will exacerbate global warming and threaten the already ailing Great Barrier Reef.

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They also say Australia is out of step with international moves to decrease reliance on fossil fuels, in line with the Paris agreement to limit average temperature rises to "well below" two degrees above pre-industrial levels.
India itself recently forecast that 57% of its electricity would come from renewable sources by 2027. Britain plans to close all its coal-fired plants by 2025, while Canada aims to do so by 2030.
In Australia, by contrast, the conservative government is talking up "clean coal" - a commodity most experts consider a pipe dream - and attacking renewable energy as unreliable and expensive. It has also ruled out any kind of emissions trading scheme.
Does coal have a place?
Already the world's biggest exporter of thermal coal (the type used to generate electricity), Australia is now eyeing new markets in Asia.
In collaboration with Japan, which manufactures power stations, it is "actively encouraging developing countries such as Vietnam, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh to build new coal-fired generators so we can sell coal to them", Richard Denniss, chief economist at the Australia Institute, a progressive think-tank, told the BBC.
With its long gestation and massive scale - six open-cut and up to three underground mines sprawling across 250sq km of arid landscape, with the entire operation engulfing almost twice that area - Carmichael has become a flashpoint for pro- and anti-coal forces.

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The former contend that its coal will provide millions of Indians with cheap, reliable electricity, lifting them out of "energy poverty". Royalties from the mine will also give a much-needed boost to the Queensland government's finances.
The latter see it as a symbol of Australia's reluctance to commit to the radical action which scientists say is required to prevent dangerous levels of warming.
Frank Jotzo, director of the Australian National University's Centre for Climate Economics and Policy, warns: "The opening up of new mining areas like the Galilee Basin is fundamentally incompatible with the global goal of well below two degrees."
Like others, Prof Jotzo is unconvinced by arguments to the contrary. For instance, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull - who has called coal "a very important part... of the global energy mix and likely to remain that way for a very long time" - has said that developing Carmichael would not push up global supply.
Mr Turnbull has also said that, far from reducing global emissions, calling a halt to Australian coal exports could actually increase them, since the likes of India would import dirtier coal from elsewhere.
'Clean' coal argument
According to the Australia Institute, the quality of coal in the Galilee Basin - an area bigger than the United Kingdom - is among Australia's poorest. ("Dirty" coal has a lower energy content, meaning more of it has to be burnt.)
The federal Environment and Energy Minister, Josh Frydenberg, claims there is a "moral case" for Australia to supply coal to developing nations.


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Others point to the serious health costs of pollution caused by burning coal, and to forecasts that climate change will hit the world's poorest hardest. Critics also say solar energy could power remote Indian villages more easily and cheaply.
Until relatively recently, some were predicting that Adani would walk away from the Galilee, frustrated by funding difficulties, the lengthy environmental assessments and the court actions, one of which concerned the mine's impact on the yakka skink, an endangered reptile.
One by one, though, the company has cleared the regulatory hurdles, albeit with 190 state and 36 federal conditions now attached to the project.
Last December came the high-profile announcement that the last major element had been approved: a rail line to transport coal from the mine, 400km inland, to the export terminal, near the Great Barrier Reef.
An Adani spokesman notes that the company has already spent A$1.3bn on the project, including more than A$100m on legal fees - "without putting one shovel in the ground". Those figures, he says, "show the company's commitment".
Lately, opposition has focused on news that the federal government is considering giving Adani a cheap A$1bn loan to build the rail link - infrastructure which some fear could become a "stranded [obsolete] asset".
Adani founder Gautam Adani (left) with Australia's then Trade Minister Andrew Robb and Rio Tinto's ex-CEO Sam Walsh in 2015

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Prof Jotzo told the BBC: "It's questionable whether this mine will still be a viable proposition in two decades' time, whereas infrastructure such as a rail line or port expansion [also planned by Adani] would have a lifetime of 50 to 100 years."
With construction of the mine expected to begin by late 2017 - assuming final legal appeals, including one by a local indigenous landowners' group, are rejected - activists are gearing up for a campaign of mass protests.
One of the biggest issues galvanising opponents is the potential impact on the Great Barrier Reef, both indirectly through intensifying climate change, and directly through dredging of the seafloor to expand port facilities and increasing shipping across the reef.
As for jobs, Adani's own economist has admitted in court that, rather than creating 10,000 positions, as the company has promised, the mine will employ fewer than 1,500 people.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-38952790

redred
03-11-2017, 12:30 AM
would of thought solar is the way to go with you folks

Muddy
03-11-2017, 12:43 AM
We need to invade them..

redred
03-11-2017, 12:48 AM
bombs and shit ?

lost in melb.
03-11-2017, 01:02 AM
would of thought solar is the way to go with you folks

There's a hard-right movement rearing it's head over here. It's what happens when booga-eaters and twinkies hijack the environmental movement.

lost in melb.
03-11-2017, 01:03 AM
We need to invade them..

Yep. Once that ailing fleet is ship-worthy :point:

redred
03-11-2017, 01:05 AM
There's a hard-right movement rearing it's head over here. It's what happens when booga-eaters and twinkies hijack the environmental movement.

but your against trump and he'd do fossil fuels the new game would be wind / solar wouldn't it ?

deebakes
03-11-2017, 04:41 AM
:rip: australia

lost in melb.
03-11-2017, 05:13 AM
but your against trump and he'd do fossil fuels the new game would be wind / solar wouldn't it ?

True, perhaps he'll push some sensible people to the Left

Muddy
03-11-2017, 12:07 PM
bombs and shit ?

I was kidding.. :lol:

redred
03-11-2017, 02:27 PM
:sad2:

PorkChopSandwiches
03-13-2017, 01:24 AM
At the end of the day I would really like to see renewables take over. If I were to credit the last president for anything I would say the push to renewables was his only accomplishment

Teh One Who Knocks
03-13-2017, 10:57 AM
At the end of the day I would really like to see renewables take over. If I were to credit the last president for anything I would say the push to renewables was his only accomplishment

I can partially agree with this...the only problem I had with his huge push was, he was using taxpayer money to subsidize bad companies. We as taxpayers lost a lot of money on the companies that went bankrupt the he threw money at. He shouldn't have been picking 'winners' in the field of green energy with taxpayer money.

Muddy
03-13-2017, 01:19 PM
I can partially agree with this...the only problem I had with his huge push was, he was using taxpayer money to subsidize bad companies. We as taxpayers lost a lot of money on the companies that went bankrupt the he threw money at. He shouldn't have been picking 'winners' in the field of green energy with taxpayer money.

To that though.. How much federal money go's to shoring up our oil supply from the middle East.. If it wasn't for the oil would we really be over there spending trillions and expending American lives? Do we really give a fuck about those people? My gut says NO, because if we really cared about people we'd be over in Africa helping that destitute continent..

Teh One Who Knocks
03-13-2017, 01:28 PM
To that though.. How much federal money go's to shoring up our oil supply from the middle East.. If it wasn't for the oil would we really be over there spending trillions and expending American lives? Do we really give a fuck about those people? My gut says NO, because if we really cared about people we'd be over in Africa helping that destitute continent..

Oil companies are stable and established, the feds are playing "venture capitalist" with our money in the oil industry. That wasn't the same with Obama and his green energy push, he was speculating on companies with our taxpayer dollars:


It is no secret that President Obama’s and green energy supporters’ (from both parties) foray into venture capitalism has not gone well. But the extent of its failure has been largely ignored by the press. Sure, single instances garner attention as they happen, but they ignore past failures in order to make it seem like a rare case.

The truth is that the problem is widespread. The government’s picking winners and losers in the energy market has cost taxpayers billions of dollars, and the rate of failure, cronyism, and corruption at the companies receiving the subsidies is substantial. The fact that some companies are not under financial duress does not make the policy a success. It simply means that our taxpayer dollars subsidized companies that would’ve found the financial support in the private market.

So far, 34 companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. This list includes only those companies that received federal money from the Obama Administration’s Department of Energy and other agencies. The amount of money indicated does not reflect how much was actually received or spent but how much was offered. The amount also does not include other state, local, and federal tax credits and subsidies, which push the amount of money these companies have received from taxpayers even higher.

The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies:


Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
Solyndra ($535 million)*
Beacon Power ($43 million)*
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)*
A123 Systems ($279 million)*
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
Range Fuels ($80 million)*
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)*
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

The problem begins with the issue of government picking winners and losers in the first place. Venture capitalist firms exist for this very reason, and they choose what to invest in by looking at companies’ business models and deciding if they are worthy. When the government plays venture capitalist, it tends to reward companies that are connected to the policymakers themselves or because it sounds nice to “invest” in green energy.

The 2009 stimulus set aside $80 billion to subsidize politically preferred energy projects. Since that time, 1,900 investigations have been opened to look into stimulus waste, fraud, and abuse (although not all are linked to the green-energy funds), and nearly 600 convictions have been made. Of that $80 billion in clean energy loans, grants, and tax credits, at least 10 percent has gone to companies that have since either gone bankrupt or are circling the drain.

CORRECTION:

Figures for four companies have been updated: Beacon Power received $43 million from the U.S. government, not $69 million as originally reported. Azure Dynamics received $5.4 million from the federal government, not $120 million as originally reported. Compact Power Inc. received $151 million as part of the stimulus, not $150 million as originally reported. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group received $700,981 in government funding, not $6 million as originally reported.

The following companies have been removed from the original list: AES’s subsidiary Eastern Energy, LSP Energy, Schneider Electric, and Uni-Solar did not receive government-backed loans, based on additional research. The National Renewable Energy Lab did received $200 million in stimulus funding, but it is a government laboratory.

Muddy
03-13-2017, 01:51 PM
Venture capitalist or not, Dollars are being spent and Americans are dying for oil and its procurement.

Teh One Who Knocks
03-13-2017, 02:16 PM
What are you talking about? The presence of the US military in the Middle East? Because security on the ground is usually provided by private independent security firms. And if you are talking about the military, they would be there regardless because of the volatility of the whole region. While making sure that oil supplies are not disrupted, that is not the sole reason they are there. If that was the case, there would be no ginormous US military presence in S. Korea or anywhere else there is no oil.

Muddy
03-13-2017, 02:25 PM
My only point is that oil is subsidized far more than any of these green ventures out there.. I don't see whats wrong with throwing a few federal dollars at them to try and secure a better future without fossil fuels being the source.

PorkChopSandwiches
03-13-2017, 07:44 PM
I can partially agree with this...the only problem I had with his huge push was, he was using taxpayer money to subsidize bad companies. We as taxpayers lost a lot of money on the companies that went bankrupt the he threw money at. He shouldn't have been picking 'winners' in the field of green energy with taxpayer money.

Agreed, he fucked up everything he tried to do. But I liked the idea