Are UFO's Real?

[Hal-9000]

I've been reading some news threads posted by Lance where Goofy is skeptical, despite the overwhelming amount of legitimate, physical proof :lol:

Seriously, there are three main schools of thought:

1. The universe is huge and there have been other forms of life. However, those civilizations could be extinct, not interested in us as a species, or are too far away to travel here.
2. There are aliens and they have visited us throughout Earth's history. Interacting with and studying us, as well as imparting knowledge.
3. There are no aliens, we are the only form of intelligent life in the universe.


In one of Carl Sagan's lectures he postulated that if aliens had the intelligence necessary to travel the vast distances in space, they would not consider humans as a worthy species to communicate with. His comparison is how we view ants. I'm not sure that I agree with that because his supposition is that space travel = intelligence that's so advanced, we are no longer interesting as new life forms. When we found out water was likely present on Mars in a certain form, it caused a lot of excitement in our scientific community.


Space is tough to think about because of the vast distances and literal billions of years that have elapsed since the universe began. Entire star systems with planets have came and went, civilizations could have rose and fell a million times over, without us ever knowing about their existence.


We've recorded potential UFO's with cameras and on video. What interests me more are the ancient paintings both on canvas and on rock that depict alien life forms and crafts.

So, do you believe they've visited us?

[deebakes]

i think #1 is the most likely :shrug:

[DemonGeminiX]

I believe in the possibility of alien life, if we're talking more advanced civilizations with the ability to travel between stars. If we're talking alien life in the form of microbes and stuff like that, then I'd say it's a damn near certainty. Hell, I'll even say that I believe in the possibility that the traveling sort may have been here, or even may be visiting here today. I will not say definitively that they are or are not, since I've seen no legitimate evidence to support either assertion. Just because you don't see it or can't prove it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[Godfather]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNhhvQGsMEc

[Hal-9000]

I had a discussion with Lance once about the idea they explain starting about a minute in that video above. Short version is that life forms may exist, but the distances are too vast.

It's time and distance that prevent us from meeting our alien friends. Time - they may have existed a billion years ago. Distance - they may exist right now but it would take millions of years to reach us.

To put things into our terms, the closest star to us is Proxima Centauri. It's 4.2 light years away.
A light year is 5,878,625,373,183.6 miles. Multiply that by 4.2 and we arrive at the closest star system.
If we could travel at the speed of light, that would be traveling at 670,616,629 mph. Let's call it 671 million miles per hour.
Physics tells us we can theoretically travel up to light speed, but never go past it. Physics also says that bodies gain mass with velocity.
That's why even if we had the tech to push a vehicle to those speeds, the speed would affect the mass of the ship and the passengers too adversely.

I'll do some quick math for you. The fastest speed we've pushed a craft into space is 36,373 mph. (this is a broad estimate because of distance traveled, beginning and end phases, etc etc) So let's say we can design a ship that travels 50,000 mph. We want to visit our closest star, 4.2 light years away or 24690226567368 miles. It would take 56,370 years to arrive at 50,000 mph. Even if we could travel at one million miles per hour, it will take 2818 years to reach that star. And that's the closest one.

The sad truth may be that even if there are aliens, we can never visit them unless they're in our own solar system.

[DemonGeminiX]

Ok, philosophical debate time: but what if everything we've developed with respect to math and physics is wrong? Physics and math are just theories. Who's to say that another civilization on the other side of the universe hasn't discovered a better system that takes away all of those pesky little speed limits that we say keeps us from going anywhere any time we want to? We're making general assumptions based on our experiences... but our experiences are based on our biases, the system we created. Some scientists say we discovered these theories. I call bullshit on that. We made it all up based on observations we've made over time, but every time we answer a question, our answers give rise to 50 new questions... meaning we might not really understand jack shit at all. Our system could be way off base. We may be handicapping ourselves with our scientific and technological assumptions.

[DemonGeminiX]

One more thing: what if our observations are limited by our 5 senses, and there's a mess of information we're missing because of that? Maybe there are a whole mess of other senses that other beings are capable of that give them a better picture of the universe in which we all live.

[Hal-9000]

I believe in the possibility of alien life, if we're talking more advanced civilizations with the ability to travel between stars. If we're talking alien life in the form of microbes and stuff like that, then I'd say it's a damn near certainty. Hell, I'll even say that I believe in the possibility that the traveling sort may have been here, or even may be visiting here today. I will not say definitively that they are or are not, since I've seen no legitimate evidence to support either assertion. Just because you don't see it or can't prove it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

This is pretty much my opinion. Hawking made a good point about trying to see aliens as possibly being non carbon based organic entities as well. We tend to feel that other forms of life have to fit into our parameters or laws of physics, based on the physical properties of the universe we currently understand. We could be wrong :lol:, or our information could very well be incomplete.

The things that fascinate me are the paintings with legitimately dated depictions of larger beings with bubbles on their heads and odd looking suits with backpacks. Some canvas paintings have what look like vehicles flying in the sky, complete with lights.

Also, they've tried to reproduce building the pyramids using what materials the Egyptians would have had at the time, and the engineers still can't reproduce the act. The current theory is that it didn't take 10 or 20 generations of people to construct the pyramids, because they were designated for a particular king or pharaoh. They had his lifetime to complete the project. You may have heard about the diagonal tunnels built within, that line up to certain stars exactly if you back up the night sky to 6000 years ago. The angles used are perfect, to within less than one degree. One of the questions is - why? Superstition...air conditioning...night light? There's handfuls of unique things about pyramid construction, too many to list.

Science and engineers aren't saying it can't be done, they're saying we don't know how they arrived at the knowledge to do it.

[Hal-9000]

Ok, philosophical debate time: but what if everything we've developed with respect to math and physics is wrong? Physics and math are just theories. Who's to say that another civilization on the other side of the universe hasn't discovered a better system that takes away all of those pesky little speed limits that we say keeps us from going anywhere any time we want to? We're making general assumptions based on our experiences... but our experiences are based on our biases, the system we created. Some scientists say we discovered these theories. I call bullshit on that. We made it all up based on observations we've made over time, but every time we answer a question, our answers give rise to 50 new questions... meaning we might not really understand jack shit at all. Our system could be way off base. We may be handicapping ourselves with our scientific and technological assumptions.

:thumbsup: I just touched on that in a post above. You've heard my theories in the past, our view is just that, ours. It's based on our parameters and our rudimentary discoveries about the universe. We've established four fundamental laws of physics, what if there are eight laws?

example - I know a geologist and he says they revamp their absolutes every 20 years or so. They used to think that a layer of X-material, 20 meters down, equals 30000 years ago. Next year that theory may be debunked and create a whole new timeline and/or layer identification label.

I call it the Galileo Theory. He believed in and proved heliocentrism, meaning that the planets revolve around the sun. For hundreds of years before that, science of the time felt that everything in the universe revolved around the Earth. They locked him up for life because of his discovery (a form of house arrest) :lol: Talk about a tough sell...

[Hal-9000]

One more thing: what if our observations are limited by our 5 senses, and there's a mess of information we're missing because of that? Maybe there are a whole mess of other senses that other beings are capable of that give them a better picture of the universe in which we all live.

Completely onboard with that. Even when we imagine aliens being made of mist-like vapors that communicate with thoughts only and not fitting into our normal idea of organic creatures, we're still using our limited parameters to envision the alien. They talk about the fourth and fifth dimensions...we may not be equipped to operate in those realms, therefore we'll never experience them.

*some people feel that aliens and ghosts are portions of our own reality that we create, as in, being viable creatures...but linked more closely to us that we understand. We draw the entities to us, by virtue of existing. Yeah it's heavy/flaky talk :lol: Still, we can no more disprove it than prove it.

[Hal-9000]

Something simple to support what DGX and I have said about humans not really understanding the universe around us.

Gravity. A good scientist can explain it, but not what causes it or why it exists. Even Einstein's theory of relativity and special relativity came under scrutiny and criticism as being wrong.

We're talking some of the best minds on our planet and they can't understand the natural world around us. I think it's going to be a long time before the truth of the universe is known.

[Hal-9000]

I think I'm going to settle on number 1 with a side of they might be able to travel here, but we can never travel there.

It's too bad that the overwhelming majority of UFO pictures feature crafts that are circular and look metallic. It really is our perception of how we think they should look, and that's not correct.

[Noilly Pratt]

I think that they might be real, but like a 4 track reel to reel, they are on track #1 and we are on Track #4...we wont know of their presence really but as any recording engineer back in the day can tell you, you can hear faint traces of other tracks due to misaligned heads, etc.

Plus, it's nicer to think that we are not alone. That is not a comforting thing to the average human. So we make up myths, legends, stories...

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Here's my take - I do fully believe that there is other life in the universe, even narrowing it down to our own galaxy, the Milky Way, a tiny section of the universe. It would be very presumptuous of us to think that in the roughly 100 billion stars in our own galaxy and the likely 100 billion planets (or more) in our galaxy, that our small tiny rock was the only one where life evolved. As has been touched up above, the vast distances between stars (the Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across) and our limited knowledge in the realm of physics is what is keeping us from exploring and discovering thew wonders that are out there. Hell, we can't even get people to Mars in less than a few months if we can figure out a way to shield the astronauts from the deadly radiation they would encounter on such a voyage.

But as to the point about intelligent life that has mastered interstellar travel, why can't they exist? And just because we haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist. Think back to what I said above, 100 billion stars and 100 billion planets. Even a race of beings far more advanced than us Terrans, it would be mind boggling to think that they would have charted every star and every planet in our galaxy. Finding the earth out of all those stars and planets would make finding a needle in a haystack seem like child's play. It would be like telling someone to head to the Sahara Desert and asking them to find one particular grain of sand. I would think that even for a superior and advanced race that can travel interstellar distances, that finding any particular planet would be trial and error and completely blind luck. Even if you could cut interstellar travel down to months or even weeks, how many ships and how many missions would it take to visit all these 100 billion stars and then narrow that down to the stars that have planets orbiting them? It would take many lifetimes I would think even with a vast fleet of ships.

So, I guess I am a firm believer that there is intelligent life out there, some more advanced, some less advanced, some that are still microscopic and some that have disappeared so many millennia ago, traces of which humans, no matter how far we advance, may never ever find...

[Hal-9000]

Some good points Lance and your post touches on what Sagan said. Kind of the if this, then that scenario.

If the aliens did master interstellar travel, then they would be too far advanced to be interested in us. And I don't believe in part of that. That's why I gave the example of us finding evidence of water on Mars. We became fully interested in just the mere possibility of life. We have to think the aliens would be the same. Unless there are already so many civilizations throughout the universe and we rate lower than trailer park trash on the scale.

That's why I loved the 2005 War of the Worlds movie. SPOILER - the aliens couldn't give a rat's ass about communicating with us or even studying us, they just wanted to harvest humans for mulch :lol:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Some good points Lance and your post touches on what Sagan said. Kind of the if this, then that scenario.

If the aliens did master interstellar travel, then they would be too far advanced to be interested in us. And I don't believe in part of that. That's why I gave the example of us finding evidence of water on Mars. We became fully interested in just the mere possibility of life. We have to think the aliens would be the same. Unless there are already so many civilizations throughout the universe and we rate lower than trailer park trash on the scale.

That's why I loved the 2005 War of the Worlds movie. SPOILER - the aliens couldn't give a rat's ass about communicating with us or even studying us, they just wanted to harvest humans for mulch :lol:

I don't believe that either, that's why I compared it more to like finding one particular grain of sand in the desert. Stumbling across our tiny little planet in this vast galaxy would be more dumb luck than anything else.

[Hal-9000]

And I think it relates to what DGX and I were saying about the differences in biology and perception. Would the aliens even be looking for planets that could sustain life based on our parameters? (sun, atmosphere, water, food sources).

So yeah, they see some movement and change on the surface of a planet, does that encourage them to come down for a peek? I say probably if only to categorize us and move on.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Exactly...take some of the episodes of Star Trek for example, because Gene Roddenberry was really a visionary on things like this when you look back. How many times did the Enterprise come upon a planet and think it was uninhabited because they showed no signs of life? But that was because they were only searching for life as they understood it. That would eventually be the same way with us if we can conquer interstellar travel and possibly the same with alien races that already are capable of interstellar travel. As carbon based life forms, that's exactly what kind of life we would be scanning for, life that we know and understand. Life based on any other element would completely off our charts of understanding.

[Hal-9000]

Not to mention one of my all time favorite movie scenes. Independence Day with people waiting on top of the building with welcome signs, and then BOOM :lol:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

All aliens are cute and friendly :hand:

[Hal-9000]

As mentioned, even ships being made of shiny metal is likely just us projecting what we think their ships should look like. (90% of UFO pictures)

Something tells me if they can travel 671 million miles per hour or better (light speed), they won't be in crafts made of steel and rivets :lol:

[Teh One Who Knocks]

As mentioned, even ships being made of shiny metal is likely just us projecting what we think their ships should look like. (90% of UFO pictures)

Something tells me if they can travel 671 million miles per hour or better (light speed), they won't be in crafts made of steel and rivets :lol:

Well, in all theories (of course, they are only theories), it would be impossible to physically travel at speeds like that and the way to traverse huge distances in space will be by bending it or using wormholes.

[Pony]

Do I think it's likely life exists on other planets? Yes. Intelligent life? Possibly. Have they visited us? Unlikely.

The reason I feel so is mainly because of the circumstances here on Earth that allowed life to evolve. A lot of which has to do with the impact that created the moon.
Because of this we have a large molten core that's larger than most planets around this size, the core gives us a strong magnetic field to protect us from harmful space radiation while letting just enough through for small genetic mutations to occur over time. The moon is over sized for the planet giving us much protection from asteroid strikes that would have otherwise wiped out much of the life on the planet way more frequently than has occurred. Also the large moon gives us strong tides that were likely a key factor in early life and still sustains the ocean currents that much advanced life relies on. Plus the moon gives us a stable rotation, without it or with a smaller captured moon the planet would likely wobble so much that no where on the planet would have a stable enough climate for intelligent life to evolve.

TLDR: While there may be billions of planets that are in the "Goldilocks zone", there are many other determining factors for life to advance to the point of interstellar travel. While possible, the likelihood of one of those planets finding us in the universe is slim.

[Hal-9000]

Well, in all theories (of course, they are only theories), it would be impossible to physically travel at speeds like that and the way to traverse huge distances in space will be by bending it or using wormholes.


Again, that goes back to our physics models. They may not need to reach those speeds, or use wormholes. Could be tech #3 that we can't understand.

As in, creepy alien life forms just appear beside us and we don't have time to say holy shit!

[Hal-9000]

Do I think it's likely life exists on other planets? Yes. Intelligent life? Possibly. Have they visited us? Unlikely.

The reason I feel so is mainly because of the circumstances here on Earth that allowed life to evolve. A lot of which has to do with the impact that created the moon.
Because of this we have a large molten core that's larger than most planets around this size, the core gives us a strong magnetic field to protect us from harmful space radiation while letting just enough through for small genetic mutations to occur over time. The moon is over sized for the planet giving us much protection from asteroid strikes that would have otherwise wiped out much of the life on the planet way more frequently than has occurred. Also the large moon gives us strong tides that were likely a key factor in early life and still sustains the ocean currents that much advanced life relies on. Plus the moon gives us a stable rotation, without it or with a smaller captured moon the planet would likely wobble so much that no where on the planet would have a stable enough climate for intelligent life to evolve.

TLDR: While there may be billions of planets that are in the "Goldilocks zone", there are many other determining factors for life to advance to the point of interstellar travel. While possible, the likelihood of one of those planets finding us in the universe is slim.

I think of time as well. Our lifespans could be so short comparatively to an alien culture, that our entire history of existence is a blip in their perception. So that would allow what you're saying, that we've had time to evolve.

We have to be pragmatic and think, if they did want to contact us or visit, we would have definitive proof by now. The 'shy alien' theory just doesn't make sense.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

One theory I've always found fascinating (and probable) says, that when we do get to the point of manned interstellar travel, most likely to Alpha or Proxima Centauri, the people that left first won't be the first humans to reach it, because in the time it will take them to get there, technology will have advanced far enough to get people there in far less time, so they will end up being 'passed' along the way (or possibly picked up on the way.).

[Hal-9000]

One theory I've always found fascinating (and probable) says, that when we do get to the point of manned interstellar travel, most likely to Alpha or Proxima Centauri, the people that left first won't be the first humans to reach it, because in the time it will take them to get there, technology will have advanced far enough to get people there in far less time, so they will end up being 'passed' along the way (or possibly picked up on the way.).

That's pretty cool to think about. Science says those long journeys on movies have to become a reality where people are put in suspension pods. We just don't have the tech to reach the goal in less than X-amount of years. And as your theory outlines, in the decades or centuries the initial journey takes, we will have had time to create new ways.

I wish I bookmarked a link I had a few years ago. In was a Nasa guy who worked at the JPL lab and had a pretty high IQ. He was a bit gloom and doom as his prediction was based on one of my pet fears, Earth's population explosion problem over the next few years. Essence was he said we HAVE to find a way to move because the Earth will run out resources before we agree to start culling the population instead to survive. He said we won't have enough time to develop the tech necessary to ferry millions of people from the planet, so a lottery system will allow for a few ships to leave in a one time effort, while the rest of the planet dies. Keep a happy thought eh? :lol:

[Pony]

Yea, even if we had tech that had instantaneous light speed travel it would take over 4 years to get there. Any standard propulsion would be years of accelerating and years of decelerating and would be decades of travel time.

[Pony]

Reminds me of a series of Scifi books, I think by Niven. We've colonized the moon and the asteroid belt and those communities have become self sufficient and snub the earthers because of the pollution and no population control. Pretty much the planet had become a leech to off world colonies.

[Hal-9000]

Another point I've read is - What would the alien's interest be in Earth? If they don't use the same tech to travel, they likely will have no need for our metals or resources. Water could be a consideration, but again that's dependent on the aliens having a similar physiology to us. If they need a place with atmosphere to live and breathe, surely there are planets closer to their home.

With the distances, I keep getting the sense that entire alien civilizations have come and gone. Even if they did appear in a ship one day I suspect we'll do the exact same thing we see in movies. Try to communicate, then consider them a threat, then try to destroy them.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Their interest could be the same as ours would be, curiosity and exploration. Although on the developmental scale, a race that was able to travel interstellar distances to our planet might view us as we would look at neanderthals.

[Godfather]

Their interest could be the same as ours would be, curiosity and exploration. Although on the developmental scale, a race that was able to travel interstellar distances to our planet might view us as we would look at neanderthals.

It would be against the Prime Directive for them to contact us :(

[Teh One Who Knocks]

It would be against the Prime Directive for them to contact us :(

There's always General Order 24 though :nono:

[Godfather]

Ohh shit Lance knows his Trek :lol:

[Muddy]

Explain, Lance.

[Hal-9000]

General Order 24 - An order to destroy all life on an entire planet.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Ohh shit Lance knows his Trek :lol:

8-)


Explain, Lance.


General Order 24 - An order to destroy all life on an entire planet.

From Star Trek TOS Episode "A Taste of Armageddon"


Anan 7: Enterprise, this is Anan 7, first councilman of the High Council of Eminiar. We hold your captain, his party, your ambassador and his party prisoners. Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain.

Captain James T. Kirk: All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give general order 24. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar 7.

Anan 7: Planetary defense system, open fire on the Enterprise!

Planetary Disruptor Bank Officer: I'm sorry, councilman, the target has moved out of range.

After a short time:

Lt Commander Scott: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In one hour and forty-five minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages.

https://i.imgur.com/0XFZYU0.jpg

[Goofy]

I think anyone would have to be pretty dumb to state as a certainty that there is no such thing as alien life forms.

Me personally, i believe they do exist, in what form im not so sure. Most of the UFO "sightings" i don't believe are genuine, i think a lot of them are hoaxes, a lot can be explained in non ET ways (weather balloons, military aircraft etc) and a number of people will just see what they want to see.

Its possible we have been visited by "little green men", i certainly wouldnt rule that out.

So yeah, i believe....... we are not alone! :) Whether we'll be able to communicate with alien life forms in my lifetime im not so sure.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

We've been discussing interstellar travel and the great distances and the immense amount of time it would take to make these kinds of voyages, but does anyone thing that intergalactic travel is something that is anywhere even remotely feasible? Even for a race far more advanced that us?

[Goofy]

We've been discussing interstellar travel and the great distances and the immense amount of time it would take to make these kinds of voyages, but does anyone thing that intergalactic travel is something that is anywhere even remotely feasible? Even for a race far more advanced that us?
Alcubierre drive :tup:

[DemonGeminiX]

We've been discussing interstellar travel and the great distances and the immense amount of time it would take to make these kinds of voyages, but does anyone thing that intergalactic travel is something that is anywhere even remotely feasible? Even for a race far more advanced that us?

Sure, why not? Again, what if our theory is wrong? What if an advanced race has something better that lacks our limitations?

[Hal-9000]

I think we can be sure of one thing. If/when they do show up, because of ideas discussed here we're probably not going to have a say in much of the outcome.

After doing some reading, popular science on the subject agrees with our predictions/theories. We likely can't visit them, but if they can travel here we had better become accustomed to the idea that the ball will be in their court regardless.

[DemonGeminiX]

:hand:

We still have Jeff Goldblum and Will Smith.


They can steal one of their ships and give them a computer virus on their mothership. :thumbsup:

[Hal-9000]

:hand:

We still have Jeff Goldblum and Will Smith.


They can steal one of their ships and give them a computer virus on their mothership. :thumbsup:

You're such a nerd :lol:


wait...so am I

:cheerlead: