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View Full Version : Donald Trump wants a border wall. The El Chapo verdict shows why it won't work



lost in melb.
02-13-2019, 11:46 AM
https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/10783236-3x2-700x467.jpg



As the trial of El Chapo came to a close, US President Donald Trump was debating whether to reopen an old sore.

The US Congress has reached a bipartisan deal on funding for his US-Mexican border wall, just days before a deadline that could shut down the government again.

Offering $US1.375 billion ($1.832 billion) for fencing, the deal falls far short of the President's demand for $5.7 billion.

When asked if he would veto the bill, Mr Trump danced around an answer.

"I'm not happy about it. It's not doing the trick," he said.

"But I'm adding things to it. And when you add whatever I have to add, it's all going to happen where we're going to build a beautiful, big, strong wall."

Brandishing his power to declare a state of emergency, Mr Trump said the US needed a wall to stop, among other things, "drugs and drug dealers".

Who is Joaquin 'El Chapo' Guzman?

Drug kingpin Joaquin Guzman is responsible for a series of high-profile crimes that made him Mexico's most notorious criminal.
As he spoke, a jury in New York found Joaquin Guzman (aka El Chapo) — perhaps the most notorious drug smuggler of them all — guilty of operating a mammoth criminal enterprise known as the Sinaloa drug cartel.

The jury's decision guarantees a life sentence. It's doubtful Guzman will ever be granted parole.

The District Attorney on his case said Guzman sold "billions and billions of dollars worth of narcotics" to the US, including heroin, methamphetamine, cocaine and marijuana.

Ten weeks of testimony and an avalanche of evidence revealed how the cartel operated on a daily basis. It's the first time prosecutors have opened a high-profile drug trial to the public, disclosing the inner workings of the US drug trade.

Taking down the kingpin is not going to end drug trafficking, but what we've learned from the trial could inform strategies to control it.

The cartel used legal points of entry
Though it never explicitly mentioned a border wall, the El Chapo trial methodically revealed how the cartel brought the drugs across the border.

Under Guzman's guidance, drugs were smuggled by plane, train, automobile, submarine, boat, tunnel and banana peel.

Packages of seized marijuana are seen at the site of a passageway Mexican authorities

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/10806444-3x2-700x467.jpg
PHOTO: Some of the packages of marijuana seized by authorities during one raid on El Chapo. (Reuters: Jorge Duenes)


Frequently, the cartel would construct front companies that sold legal items. After shipping a few clean loads north into American cities, Guzman's associates would pack drugs into compartments or stuff drugs into the products themselves.

One witness described how Guzman filled cans of jalapenos with cocaine, stacked them on the back of commercial tractor-trailers and drove through legal points of entry, no questions asked.

The cartel took larger loads, though less frequently, by rail and sea. Sometimes operatives transported millions in cash.

In other words, the Sinaloa's narcotics were not snuck through the so-called "soft spots" that Mr Trump describes. They weren't taking advantage of a lack of concrete wall or steel-slat fence. They were going through legal points of entry.

And then there's the tunnels

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ShockingReliableJellyfish-mobile.mp4

GIF: The tunnel beneath a shower that 'El Chapo' used to escape
When the drug kingpin escaped from a maximum-security Mexican prison in 2015 —for the second time — it was through a sophisticated tunnel, stretching from the floor of his cell to a shack some two kilometres away.

Rumour has it he sent his top men to learn the dark art of tunnelling in Germany for a few months.

During the trial, one of El Chapo's top logistics officers explained how he dug tunnels from Mexico to the US border state of Arizona in the early 1990s.

One such outlet exited just a few blocks from a Customs and Border Protection office.

US media outlets have reported drug-smuggling tunnels as deep as 27 metres. Some contained lighting systems, ventilation, drainage and lifts.

And authorities estimate tunnels are a popular method of trafficking drugs. US Border Patrol reported seven tunnels in San Diego alone in 2017.

As one official told the Washington Post, the ground near Mexico is "like Swiss cheese".

A border agent touches a wall of vertical steel slats lining a mud road creating dramatic parallel shadows on the road.


High-profile insiders help protect the trade
One witness said Guzman once paid former Mexican president Enrique Pena Nieto $100 million in exchange for a clean escape. Court documents suggest Mr Pena Nieto had asked for $250 million.

But it's not as simple as calling an emergency today, and building the wall tomorrow
Mr Pena Nieto's former spokesman said the allegations were "false, defamatory and absurd".

The Mexican Government asked the judge in the trial to block testimony about corruption at its highest levels. In the end, the judge allowed some details to be released.

Guzman's associates accused police, prosecutors and army commanders of accepting bribes.

Current Mexican President, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, has pledged a fresh approach to fighting cartels.

Among his campaign slogans was "hugs not gunfire", a promise to end violence instead of arresting high-ranking members.

But a court document from Guzman's trial alleges that one of Mr Lopez Obrador's aides may have taken a bribe from the Sinaloa cartel in 2006.

The President has denied the allegations.

lost in melb.
02-13-2019, 11:49 AM
It's undeniably true. A border wall will not solve this alone.

You will also need to implement new technologies including sensors, drones, infra-red and ground penetrating radar, satellite scanning, increased man-power with flexibility to adapt to changing tactics as well as the training to work with the new technologies. With the money saved from drug-related fallout you could fund the program, supporting jobs related to technologies and personnel as well as help pay the start-up bill for legal immigrants and dreamers & assist neighbouring countries to be more self-sustaining. Did I miss anything?

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2019, 12:49 PM
It's undeniably true. A border wall will not solve this alone.

You will also need to implement new technologies including sensors, drones, infra-red and ground penetrating radar, satellite scanning, increased man-power with flexibility to adapt to changing tactics as well as the training to work with the new technologies. With the money saved from drug-related fallout you could fund the program, supporting jobs related to technologies and personnel as well as help pay the start-up bill for legal immigrants and dreamers & assist neighbouring countries to be more self-sustaining. Did I miss anything?

PAY for the legal immigrants to come here? :-s Why is that our (the taxpayers) problem?

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2019, 12:50 PM
By Emily Zanotti - The Daily Wire


https://i.imgur.com/6pAEYrJl.jpg

Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) has a unique solution for Congress' current border wall pickle.

Instead of requiring that the United States pay for the border wall out of taxpayer funds, and instead of dogging Mexico to pay for a border wall they feel is unnecessary, perhaps the United States could use some of the billions confiscated from convicted drug lord "El Chapo" to build the wall.

Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman was found guilty Tuesday on all ten federal criminal counts against him, CNN reports, stemming from his time at the helm of the notorious Mexican drug cartel, Sinaloa. Each federal count carries a minimum of ten years in prison, and the top count — engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise — carries with it a mandatory sentence of life in prison.

During their pursuit of "El Chapo," federal agents confiscated billions of dollars in cold hard cash, along with billions of dollars in more "solid" assets, including "gold-plated AK-47s and monogrammed, diamond-encrusted pistols." By the time El Chapo was captured in 2016, federal agents had amassed a cache of more than $14 billion in seized assets.

Prosecutors are seeking a forfeiture judgment against El Chapo which would allow the federal government to keep the money.

Now Ted Cruz says he believes the money can be put to good use by building a border wall, ostensibly making it much harder for drug kingpins like El Chapo to traffic marijuana, heroin, and cocaine across the United States southern border. To that end, on Tuesday he introduced the Ensuring Lawful Collection of Hidden Assets to Provide Order, or EL CHAPO Act.

"Fourteen billion dollars will go a long way toward building a wall that will keep Americans safe and hinder the illegal flow of drugs, weapons, and individuals across our southern border," Cruz said in a statement.

He followed up with a tweet: "America’s justice system prevailed today in convicting Joaquín Guzmán Loera, aka El Chapo, on all 10 counts. U.S. prosecutors are seeking $14 billion in drug profits & other assets from El Chapo which should go towards funding our wall to #SecureTheBorder."

Wisconsin Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner has proposed a nearly identical bill in the House.

"The DEA has estimated that the gross receipts of the Mexican drug trade are somewhere between $19-$29 billion a year,” Sensenbrenner told the Washington Examiner, explaining that the border security fund would not have to close after El Chapo's $14 billion was exhausted. “We don’t have to be 100 percent efficient to get the money we need to completely pay for the wall relatively quickly.”

Indeed, the $14 billion itself dwarfs what the White House is currently requesting for the border wall — a mere $5 billion. In a budget compromise inked Tuesday morning, Democrats and Republicans agreed to allocate only around $1.4 billion to border wall construction, far less than what the White House wanted, and less even than the $1.6 that Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) said he was comfortable allocating back in late November.

The EL CHAPO Act may be a decent compromise for both Congress and the White House. It funds the wall on a consistent basis, well into the near future (the Sinaloa cartel is still very much in operation), and fits with one of the White House's arguments for the border wall itself, which claims that drug cartels would be forced to risk smuggling their goods through official border checkpoints — rather than take easier smuggling routes through open swaths of land — if there was a complete wall across the United States' full southern border.

Pony
02-13-2019, 12:52 PM
It's undeniably true. A border wall will not solve this alone.

You will also need to implement new technologies including sensors, drones, infra-red and ground penetrating radar, satellite scanning, increased man-power with flexibility to adapt to changing tactics as well as the training to work with the new technologies. With the money saved from drug-related fallout you could fund the program, supporting jobs related to technologies and personnel as well as help pay the start-up bill for legal immigrants and dreamers & assist neighbouring countries to be more self-sustaining. Did I miss anything?

To my knowledge no one is saying that a wall will stop all drug trafficking and illegal crossings, it's simply a common sense piece to the puzzle.

lost in melb.
02-13-2019, 12:53 PM
PAY for the legal immigrants to come here? :-s Why is that our (the taxpayers) problem?

You do anyhow.

It's called a political gesture. Unless you assume all this happens without the Left getting something? :rolleyes:

lost in melb.
02-13-2019, 12:57 PM
To my knowledge no one is saying that a wall will stop all drug trafficking and illegal crossings, it's simply a common sense piece to the puzzle.

It's sure implied that way. I think the wall is largely symbolic & a deterrent.

Pony
02-13-2019, 01:06 PM
It's sure implied that way. I think the wall is largely symbolic & a deterrent.

Yes, it is implied that way. Mostly by the left and media. It's simply a first step used to slow down crossings so other means (some of which you mentioned above) can be used to catch them.
Locking your front door isn't gonna stop a criminal intent on getting into your house, but it will make him work for it, giving time for police to arrive.

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2019, 01:08 PM
You do anyhow.

It's called a political gesture. Unless you assume all this happens without the Left getting something? :rolleyes:

That's great from someone who is from a country that treats 'refugees' worse than animals. :lol:

lost in melb.
02-13-2019, 01:17 PM
That's great from someone who is from a country that treats 'refugees' worse than animals. :lol:

Yes, and look how much money we have saved!


By the way, thank you for taking the few refugees that survived our camps off our hands :gimme5:

Muddy
02-13-2019, 01:40 PM
We should change the border crossing roads into EZ pass areas..

Pony
02-13-2019, 02:18 PM
Yes, and look how much money we have saved!


By the way, thank you for taking the few refugees that survived our camps off our hands :gimme5:

:lol:

Hal-9000
02-13-2019, 06:54 PM
Yes touching on what Lost said it seems like a wall will just inspire more tunneling.

If that drug kingpin could create a two kilometer tunnel from a jail to a shack...people outside of a jail could probably do better :-k

Pony
02-13-2019, 08:13 PM
Yes touching on what Lost said it seems like a wall will just inspire more tunneling.

If that drug kingpin could create a two kilometer tunnel from a jail to a shack...people outside of a jail could probably do better :-k

Possibly. But tunneling takes time and can be detected with sensors, etc. We're never gonna 100% stop it, the point is to slow it down.

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2019, 08:21 PM
Possibly. But tunneling takes time and can be detected with sensors, etc. We're never gonna 100% stop it, the point is to slow it down.

https://i.imgur.com/tWppj7sh.jpg

Hal-9000
02-13-2019, 08:23 PM
Possibly. But tunneling takes time and can be detected with sensors, etc. We're never gonna 100% stop it, the point is to slow it down.

I watched the show Shameless and they have a little ongoing plot about immigrants being treated badly, told to go home etc. They're not subtle about their views.

What I've never understood and maybe someone can summarize an answer - Don't you have established law about what's required when entering the country? Like, every potential immigrant has to be interviewed and vetted at a recognized border crossing?

And these people we're supposed to feel sorry for are actually breaking the law when they cross the border in any other fashion than what I've described above?

I'm not against immigration and starting a new life somewhere else due to financial or other hardships suffered, but why are some parts of the country framing this action like it's okay for everyone to do it and the authorities are the bad guys when they detain them in camps or send them back?

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2019, 08:26 PM
I watched the show Shameless and they have a little ongoing plot about immigrants being treated badly, told to go home etc. They're not subtle about their views.

What I've never understood and maybe someone can summarize an answer - Don't you have established law about what's required when entering the country? Like, every potential immigrant has to be interviewed and vetted at a recognized border crossing?

And these people we're supposed to feel sorry for are actually breaking the law when they cross the border in any other fashion than what I've described above?

I'm not against immigration and starting a new life somewhere else due to financial or other hardships suffered, but why are some parts of the country framing this action like it's okay for everyone to do it and the authorities are the bad guys when they detain them in camps or send them back?

https://i.imgur.com/65Ce7Bl.png

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/the-immigrant-visa-process.html

Hal-9000
02-13-2019, 08:30 PM
So can you line up at the border crossing and get the applications or does the process take a matter of weeks and should be done from your home country?

Seems like a lot of steps and stages :-k

Teh One Who Knocks
02-13-2019, 08:33 PM
So can you line up at the border crossing and get the applications or does the process take a matter of weeks and should be done from your home country?

Seems like a lot of steps and stages :-k

It's easiest (I believe) if you do it from your home country and go through the US Embassy or Consulate, whichever is closer for you. If you show up at a port of entry, I think you need to be claiming to be a 'refugee' and be applying for asylum. And for that you need to have very specific and serious reasons to be applying for asylum. If you show up at a port of entry looking to immigrate, I think you end up making the process longer and they will direct you back to the embassy/consulate.

DemonGeminiX
02-13-2019, 08:38 PM
I'm not against immigration and starting a new life somewhere else due to financial or other hardships suffered, but why are some parts of the country framing this action like it's okay for everyone to do it and the authorities are the bad guys when they detain them in camps or send them back?

Politics.

Hal-9000
02-13-2019, 08:43 PM
It's easiest (I believe) if you do it from your home country and go through the US Embassy or Consulate, whichever is closer for you. If you show up at a port of entry, I think you need to be claiming to be a 'refugee' and be applying for asylum. And for that you need to have very specific and serious reasons to be applying for asylum. If you show up at a port of entry looking to immigrate, I think you end up making the process longer and they will direct you back to the embassy/consulate.

So instead, they sneak in and find a place to live. Then they need to get jobs and work. If they haven't filled out the permits and visas etc then every type of employment they get has to be under the table and illegal. Just what is their expectation in that case? That someone will overlook their landed immigrant status (lack of) and give them a full time job?

Seems like a self fulfilling prophecy of failure to me.