At least 49 dead in 'terrorist' shootings at 2 New Zealand mosques, 4 nabbed, IEDs found

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By Louis Casiano, Samuel Chamberlain | Fox News


https://i.imgur.com/0s2EBzj.jpg

One person has been charged in connection with a “well-planned” terrorist attack that killed 49 people and injured dozens more in two New Zealand mosques on Friday, authorities said.

The New Zealand police said four people -- three men and one woman -- were in custody in connection with the mass shooting at both places of worship in the city of Christchurch. The charged male suspect is expected to appear in court Saturday, Police Commissioner Mike Bush told reporters at a news conference. He said the principal suspect was a 28-year-old Australian-born citizen who earlier claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said none of the suspects were on any security watch lists.

"These are people who I would describe as having extremist views, that have absolutely no place in New Zealand," Ardern said.

Bush clarified that police found two improvised explosive devices in one vehicle after the shooting. One was disabled and police were working to defuse the second Friday night.

At least 30 people were killed at the Masjid Al Noor mosque in central Christchurch and seven were slain inside the Linwood Masjid Mosque. Another three died outside the Linwood mosque.

https://i.imgur.com/oitoKPPh.jpg

Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison earlier confirmed that one of the detainees was the unidentified male Australian citizen. He described the suspect as “an extremist, right-wing, violent terrorist.”

The suspects were apprehended by local police following Friday's attack, Bush said. No motive for the attack has been determined. Investigators haven't ruled out that more gunmen could be involved but were not actively searching for anyone, he said.

Police were also working to remove an unconfirmed video that circulated online showing the Australian suspect entering a mosque and firing multiple shots at people inside. He claimed responsibility for the shooting and reportedly published a 74-page anti-immigrant manifesto prior to the killings. He wrote that he traveled to the island nation to train and commit the attack.

In one video frame, the suspect is seen driving to the mosque with what appeared to be several semi-automatic weapons inside his vehicle.

Officers responded to reports of a "serious ongoing firearms incident" at the Masjid Al Noor on Friday afternoon and also responded to a second shooting at the nearby Linwood Masjid mosque.
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Authorities were not sure if any other locations were under threat and urged worshipers to refrain from visiting any mosque in the country, Bush said. A brief lockdown of Christchurch schools was lifted Friday evening.

Ardern said Friday's events represented "one of New Zealand's darkest days."

Witnesses said the Masjid Al Noor mosque was full for Friday afternoon prayers when the shooting occurred. Len Peneha told the Associated Press that he saw a man dressed in black enter the mosque and then heard dozens of gunshots. That was followed by terrified mosque-goers running from the terror. A suspect was seen outside, fleeing after dropping what appeared to be a semi-automatic weapon, witnesses said.

"I saw dead people everywhere," one nearby resident said.

Another witness told TVNZ he saw three women shot and bleeding outside the mosque. A third witness said a suspect fired more than 50 shots, Stuff.co.NZ reported.

"He had a big gun and a lot of bullets and he came through and started shooting, like, everyone in the mosque, like, everywhere, and they have to smash the door and the glass from the window and from the small door to try and get out," he said.

Retno Marsudi, Indonesia's foreign minister, said six Indonesians were inside the Al Noor Mosque when the shooting occurred and three escaped.

“We are looking for three other Indonesian citizens," Marsudi said.

Members of the Bangladesh cricket team said they narrowly escaped the shooting at the same mosque. Players and coaching staff were reportedly getting off a bus when the shooting broke out. Tamim Iqbal, a batsman on the team, tweeted: “Entire team got saved from active shooters. Frightening experience and please keep us in your prayers.”
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Mario Villavarayen, a strength and conditioning coach with the team, told New Zealand media the players did not see the suspect but heard shots. He said the group was shaken but unhurt.

“I spoke to one of them shortly after,” Vllavarayen said. They didn’t see anything but heard gunshots. They were at the ground and just started running. The coaching staff were all at the hotel.”

The team reportedly fled the scene on foot to Hagley Oval where it was scheduled to play New Zealand on Saturday. That match has been canceled.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[lost in melb.]

God :|

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By Dom Calicchio | Fox News


https://i.imgur.com/5xPf9dvh.jpg

Compounding the horror of Friday’s massacre in New Zealand: Video emerged online that appeared to be bodycam footage of the suspect firing his weapon.

“Police are aware there is extremely distressing footage relating to the incident in Christchurch circulating online,” New Zealand Police tweeted. “We would strongly urge that the link not be shared. We are working to have any footage removed.”
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Unfortunately, the footage was distributed on a variety of platforms, including in comments that readers posted to news stories, but work was underway to limit its distribution.

“We have taken down the account of the alleged perpetrator and are working to actively remove all versions of the video from Twitter,” a Twitter spokesman said, according to BuzzFeed reporter Ryan Mac.

Facebook officials also issued a statement, according to Mac: "Our hearts go out to the victims, their families and the community affected by this horrendous act. New Zealand Police alerted us to a video on Facebook shortly after the livestream commenced and we removed both the shooter’s Facebook account and the video."

Among those appalled by the video was Donald Trump Jr.

“Don’t give the POS NZ shooter what he wants,” President Trump’s son wrote on Twitter. “Don’t speak his name don’t show the footage. Seems that most agree on that. The questions is can the media do what’s right and pass up the ratings they’ll get by doing the opposite? I fear we all know the answer unfortunately.”
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Authorities have not said who they have in custody in connection with the attack. But a man who claimed responsibility for the shootings left a 74-page anti-immigrant manifesto in which he explained who he was and his reasoning for his actions. He said he considered it a terrorist attack.

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

By Joseph A. Wulfsohn | Fox News


https://i.imgur.com/fCK4CyRh.jpg

U.S. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., slammed those expressing thoughts and prayers for the victims of Friday's mass shooting that killed 49 people in Christchurch, New Zealand.

Reacting to remarks made by New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, Ocasio-Cortez took to Twitter and invoked other mass shootings that took place in houses of worship.
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“At 1st I thought of saying, ‘Imagine being told your house of faith isn’t safe anymore.’ But I couldn’t say ‘imagine.’ Because of Charleston. Pittsburgh. Sutherland Springs,’” Ocasio-Cortez wrote.

The congresswoman was referencing the 2015 Charleston shooting at the Emmanuel A.M.E. Church that left nine dead, the 2017 Sutherland Springs shooting at the First Baptist Church that left 27 dead, and the 2018 Pittsburgh shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue that left 11 dead.

CLICK HERE TO GET THE FOX NEWS APP

“What good are your thoughts & prayers when they don’t even keep the pews safe?” she asked.

That sparked plenty of backlash on social media.
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[lost in melb.]

Queue tweet where she says what she really meant

[RBP]

Has anyone heard anything about motivation yet?

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Has anyone heard anything about motivation yet?

I saw one story reference a more than 40 page long anti-immigrant ranting manifesto.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Has anyone heard anything about motivation yet?

From a different story:


Authorities have not specified who they detained, but said none had been on any watch list. A man who claimed responsibility for the shootings left a 74-page anti-immigrant manifesto in which he explained who he was and his reasoning for the attack. He said he was a 28-year-old white Australian and a racist.

[lost in melb.]

Has anyone heard anything about motivation yet?

(part of) his manifesto

https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_1600/t_resize_width/q_62%2Cf_auto/4b9a5579bd32761826ccc20cf60d44d90dc4319d

[Goofy]

Just saw this on the news, mental :wha:

[RBP]

Thanks. Very sad story.

[Bushviper]

Any links to the video footage? There are supposed to be 17 minutes but I only found two or three at most.

[Hal-9000]

I've heard a few people say after attacks that thoughts and prayers won't bring their loved ones back. I do think expressing the sentiment is important for both the shock and subsequent healing process. We can't become immune to the horror of these random slaughters. If you feel laws need to be changed/new preventative measures put in place, fine. That's a conversation for later.


edit - guy is in custody

EDIT 2 - this post is in reference to AOC's comments on people offering condolences

[Godfather]

Absolutely horrific story :( The first man shot welcomed the shooter at the door saying 'Hello Brother, welcome.' How can anyone be capable of this...

[Hal-9000]

I watched the full video. It was bad, but coldly clinical and removed at the same time. He kept going back to two piles of bodies within the Mosque that he had already shot and putting more bullets into them.

What was somehow more horrifying was him jogging outside and taking random shots at pedestrians on the street. He shot from his car as well when he was driving away from the scene and I think he got at least two people firing through the windows.

[Godfather]

I watched the full video. It was bad, but coldly clinical and removed at the same time. He kept going back to two piles of bodies within the Mosque that he had already shot and putting more bullets into them.

What was somehow more horrifying was him jogging outside and taking random shots at pedestrians on the street. He shot from his car as well when he was driving away from the scene and I think he got at least two people firing through the windows.



Fuck. Horrible.

I'm pretty immune to Gore having been on the internet since the early days, but I'll probably skip this one. I noticed the usual places I'd see it pop up on reddit like /r/watchpeopledie and /r/gore have been permanently banned just after this tragedy. I'm not exactly clear why, those subs had videos of every gruesome thing you can imagine and survived posting through a number of similar shootings. Maybe this one just drew too much heat from main stream media or something and the admins had enough.

[RBP]

Absolutely horrific story :( The first man shot welcomed the shooter at the door saying 'Hello Brother, welcome.' How can anyone be capable of this...

[welcome to the answer to your otherwise rhetorical question. I do that some times]

We are all capable of it. Nature of humanity. Did a sociopath get molded into a psychopath? (cue Lost to say they are the same thing - he's a forensics guy). Is that even possible? I'd say yes, a sociopath by nature could devolve into psychopathy, but could be treated. The true psychopath cannot. Given his apparent lack of violent or criminal history, I'm leaning more towards a psychotic break. The intensely planned details , the writings, the markings on the guns, the incoherent rambling manifesto, the purposeful calm in execution, all put in that in a psychopathy category.

I have not gone too deep, but the meme-based clues are troubling. Significant references drawn from popular culture, politics, memes, and the chan boards - he was clearly looking to incite more generally. And if you had any doubt, his final troll was brilliant. There is an arrest photo of him flashing the "okay" symbol. That is a chan-created hoax that worked to convince many MSM outlets and people that the okay symbol was a solidarity show with white supremacists. And what did the press do with that photo? They ran it as "suspect flashes white supremacist sign in arrest photo". He got exactly what he wanted.

[Hal-9000]

Fuck. Horrible.

I'm pretty immune to Gore having been on the internet since the early days, but I'll probably skip this one. I noticed the usual places I'd see it pop up on reddit like /r/watchpeopledie and /r/gore have been permanently banned just after this tragedy. I'm not exactly clear why, those subs had videos of every gruesome thing you can imagine and survived posting through a number of similar shootings. Maybe this one just drew too much heat from main stream media or something and the admins had enough.

I didn't want to post my source here because I wasn't sure how Lance would feel about it. There were a lot worse videos on that site and I watched three of them before leaving.


The reason I sought it out was to see the chain of events. Each news site varied and I still don't know if this guy did his thing at one Mosque, then drove over to Mosque 2 and continued, then got caught by police? I read where two other people were arrested and saw his car stopped with the one wheel in the air near the curb.

Yeah man I thought I had watched all the gore I needed during my first year on the net. Some news stories compel me to see them, if only to understand my own feelings on the subject and to confirm I guess in some odd way that I'm still sensitive to life and living. Better stop as this is getting deep and I can't afford Lost's rates.

This one was lambs to the slaughter in the strictest sense :(

[Godfather]

I didn't want to post my source here because I wasn't sure how Lance would feel about it. There were a lot worse videos on that site and I watched three of them before leaving.


The reason I sought it out was to see the chain of events. Each news site varied and I still don't know if this guy did his thing at one Mosque, then drove over to Mosque 2 and continued, then got caught by police? I read where two other people were arrested and saw his car stopped with the one wheel in the air near the curb.

Yeah man I thought I had watched all the gore I needed during my first year on the net. Some news stories compel me to see them, if only to understand my own feelings on the subject and to confirm I guess in some odd way that I'm still sensitive to life and living. Better stop as this is getting deep and I can't afford Lost's rates :lol:

This one was lambs to a slaughter in the strictest sense :(

I'm sure I could dig it up too, and I don't judge you at all for watching it, I think there must be something in us that causes us to not look away. I'll be the first to admit that once every few months or so this morbid curiosity would draw me back to /r/watchpeopledie. Some videos were too much, a couple I wish I'd never seen, but it is just a reality check on how fragile we are. A lot of those vids are just people getting smoked in intersections or making a mistake on the job. It gives you a situational awareness and appreciation of sorts.

[RBP]

I didn't want to post my source here because I wasn't sure how Lance would feel about it.

:2cents: It should not be posted or linked on this site. And get out of that rabbit hole; there is no good that will come of it.

[Godfather]

[welcome to the answer to your otherwise rhetorical question. I do that some times]

We are all capable of it. Nature of humanity. Did a sociopath get molded into a psychopath? (cue Lost to say they are the same thing - he's a forensics guy). Is that even possible? I'd say yes, a sociopath by nature could devolve into psychopathy, but could be treated. The true psychopath cannot. Given his apparent lack of violent or criminal history, I'm leaning more towards a psychotic break. The intensely planned details , the writings, the markings on the guns, the incoherent rambling manifesto, the purposeful calm in execution, all put in that in a psychopathy category.

I have not gone too deep, but the meme-based clues are troubling. Significant references drawn from popular culture, politics, memes, and the chan boards - he was clearly looking to incite more generally. And if you had any doubt, his final troll was brilliant. There is an arrest photo of him flashing the "okay" symbol. That is a chan-created hoax that worked to convince many MSM outlets and people that the okay symbol was a solidarity show with white supremacists. And what did the press do with that photo? They ran it as "suspect flashes white supremacist sign in arrest photo". He got exactly what he wanted.

I agree with everything you said.

Regarding your last point on the memes, I had a look at the 4chan /pol/ board last night. What a mess. He riled them up exactly as intended. A few of them are saying 'jesus this was all just satire I didn't want anyone hurt,' some are still making jokes (albeit distasteful but jokes none the less), some seem to be genuinely pleased, and of course there's always the group that thinks it's a hoax/conspiracy and are diving deep into what they believe is evidence. The internet is going to internet I guess....

[Hal-9000]

[welcome to the answer to your otherwise rhetorical question. I do that some times]

We are all capable of it. Nature of humanity. Did a sociopath get molded into a psychopath? (cue Lost to say they are the same thing - he's a forensics guy). Is that even possible? I'd say yes, a sociopath by nature could devolve into psychopathy, but could be treated. The true psychopath cannot. Given his apparent lack of violent or criminal history, I'm leaning more towards a psychotic break. The intensely planned details , the writings, the markings on the guns, the incoherent rambling manifesto, the purposeful calm in execution, all put in that in a psychopathy category.

I have not gone too deep, but the meme-based clues are troubling. Significant references drawn from popular culture, politics, memes, and the chan boards - he was clearly looking to incite more generally. And if you had any doubt, his final troll was brilliant. There is an arrest photo of him flashing the "okay" symbol. That is a chan-created hoax that worked to convince many MSM outlets and people that the okay symbol was a solidarity show with white supremacists. And what did the press do with that photo? They ran it as "suspect flashes white supremacist sign in arrest photo". He got exactly what he wanted.

My small amount of knowledge on the subject says that modern head shrinkers and FBI analysts feel that psychopaths and sociopaths are the considered the same thing. The psychotic break comment is interesting because I understood that to mean it was an event that was the catalyst for the activity, rather than a more drawn out preplanning phase. The formative portion of this guy's plan seems to go back years so it doesn't appear there was any one event that pushed him into action. eg A killer will fantasize about killing someone and up to that point only hurt animals, perhaps rape and release a woman. Then he loses his job, gets rejected/divorced by a partner, is publicly humiliated and that event moves him to act on his thoughts.

The motives and timing are nitpicking without knowing and probably not important to the discussion. He videoed the event which to me is the message. From his statement about subscribing to the gamer pewdiedie to his knowing the world would likely seek out the video, as you said he was doing the ultimate trolling job. I'm still amazed he lived through it.

[Hal-9000]

:2cents: It should not be posted or linked on this site. And get out of that rabbit hole; there is no good that will come of it.

Righto...I had to expunge the bad stuff :thumbsup:

Let's go look at some titties now (not Muddy's)

[Hal-9000]

Last three books I've read in order:

Columbine - Dave Cullen

Whoever Fights Monsters - Robert Ressler

Green River, Running Red - Ann Rule


:-k


I think I may be ready for Treasure Island now...

[Hal-9000]

We have a yellow vest movement in our province and some are affiliated with pipeline and job issues, some are affiliated with white supremacy and racial issues.

I read some of the comments regarding this attack from some of the yellow vesters and they make me ashamed to share the same color skin.

They really do feel that every Muslim worshiper in the world is an extremist and the NZ shooting is a way of evening things up.

Aren't they intelligent enough to realize that in the same way that most Christians are not Westboro Baptists, most Muslims are peace loving pacifists?

Actually belay that post...this is a mental health issue, not a belief issue.

[Hal-9000]

This Afghan refugee was at the second Mosque and allegedly stopped the gunman. He yelled at the shooter then picked up and threw a credit card machine at him. Weaving through cars while being shot at, he then picked up a rifle that was discarded and threw it at the car the shooter had retreated to. Rifle smashed the window and the shooter drove away to be captured by the police minutes later.

I say give this guy the Balls of Steel Award.


https://www.foxnews.com/world/mosque-massacre-survivor-hailed-as-hero-for-confronting-the-shooter-saving-lives

[lost in melb.]

[welcome to the answer to your otherwise rhetorical question. I do that some times]

We are all capable of it. Nature of humanity. Did a sociopath get molded into a psychopath? (cue Lost to say they are the same thing - he's a forensics guy). Is that even possible? I'd say yes, a sociopath by nature could devolve into psychopathy, but could be treated. The true psychopath cannot. Given his apparent lack of violent or criminal history, I'm leaning more towards a psychotic break. The intensely planned details , the writings, the markings on the guns, the incoherent rambling manifesto, the purposeful calm in execution, all put in that in a psychopathy category.

I have not gone too deep, but the meme-based clues are troubling. Significant references drawn from popular culture, politics, memes, and the chan boards - he was clearly looking to incite more generally. And if you had any doubt, his final troll was brilliant. There is an arrest photo of him flashing the "okay" symbol. That is a chan-created hoax that worked to convince many MSM outlets and people that the okay symbol was a solidarity show with white supremacists. And what did the press do with that photo? They ran it as "suspect flashes white supremacist sign in arrest photo". He got exactly what he wanted.

Still hurting too much to comment or think about him. New Zealand is like our little brother.

I'm sure there'll be an analysis of the shooter in the future. There's no opportunity for rehab.

[DemonGeminiX]

I just read something and I hesitate to post it, because if it's false, it's absolute despicable libel. I'm just going to ask: Has anyone else seen articles online claiming that one of the mosques that was shot up had ties to extreme Islamic terrorists?

[Hal-9000]

I just read something and I hesitate to post it, because if it's false, it's absolute despicable libel. I'm just going to ask: Has anyone else seen articles online claiming that one of the mosques that was shot up had ties to extreme Islamic terrorists?

I haven't read anything like that but did see an article talking about how the guy allegedly made his choice of targets. Smaller town (maybe Lost can fill us in on the locale) and he picked the two with the largest turnouts for prayer at that time. Friday mid day I believe. Check that, now there are reports he may have been planning to hit three Mosques.

Every Mosque in our city opened their doors for people to visit regardless of belief or non belief. It was such a classy move and I regret not stopping by one to offer respect. I actually felt weird about being a larger, blonde haired Christian doing that sort of thing.

I'm happy the fuckstick is getting minimal press.

[lost in melb.]

Haven't read anything. It wouldn't make it through to the mainstream media anyhow. The cognitive dissonance would make the internet explode.

18-Year-Old Arrested In New Zealand For Sharing Terrorist's Facebook Video (https://www-gizmodo-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/03/18-year-old-arrested-in-new-zealand-for-sharing-terrorists-facebook-video/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gizmodo.com.au%2F2019%2 F03%2F18-year-old-arrested-in-new-zealand-for-sharing-terrorists-facebook-video%2F)

[Hal-9000]

Haven't read anything. It wouldn't make it through to the mainstream media anyhow. The cognitive dissonance would make the internet explode.

18-Year-Old Arrested In New Zealand For Sharing Terrorist's Facebook Video (https://www-gizmodo-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/03/18-year-old-arrested-in-new-zealand-for-sharing-terrorists-facebook-video/amp?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gizmodo.com.au%2F2019%2F03 %2F18-year-old-arrested-in-new-zealand-for-sharing-terrorists-facebook-video%2F)

The site I saw the video on has a forum/comment section.

I won't repeat any of it because:

a) the site encourages a certain type of viewer
b) I'm an idiot for watching it in the first place

In fact about the time I starting reading posts there supporting the act, I saw RBP make a post here towards me saying - "And get out of that rabbit hole; there is no good that will come of it."

Some of the best advice I've ever received from the internet and at just the right time :thumbsup: Don't tell RBP though, because he's a dick and other stuff.

[lost in melb.]

Oh I'm sure there'll be hundreds of conspiracy theories justifying that the victims deserved it in the 'under'net :rolleyes:

[Muddy]

Is there a site where the vid resides? I want to possibly see if for scientific reasons into the darkness of man and how it presents.

[Hal-9000]

Oh I'm sure there'll be hundreds of conspiracy theories justifying that the victims deserved it in the 'under'net :rolleyes:

Some of the first things I read on mainstream sites/portions of Twitter was equivalent to - Look how many people Muslim attacks have killed, this is an evening up measure.

I worked with a 65 year old East Indian guy who I became good friends with. He explained just how many Muslim factions there are and just how small the extremist contingent is in comparison. He went to temple every night and said in his culture, if anyone starts talking about extremist ideas or demonstrates bad intent, they report the person to the head of the Mosque, who in turn may call the police. He said they want to live in a peaceful world no different than anyone else. I've never forgotten that talk and how it came about because I made a shitty joke about him being busy at home making vests in his secret subbasement. (he did laugh at the initial joke)

I realize no one here is an idiot and they are aware these things, but I wish the world at large would listen to a guy like that and hear the simple logic.

[lost in melb.]

It's a very small percentage. I think as the second generation grows up it will be insignificant. They just won't focus on the hairy bits of the Koran, just like Christian ignore the first testament.

Of course, middle East is a different matter... Gotta be careful who you invite over.

[lost in melb.]

Is there a site where the vid resides? I want to possibly see if for scientific reasons into the darkness of man and how it presents.

Undercover cop! I knew it!

[Hal-9000]

Undercover cop! I knew it!

Naww Muddy has a fake badge and pulls over hot chicks in their cars. Tells them they are drunk driving suspects, undoes his pants and tells them to blow into the breathalyzer.

[Muddy]

Oh my god.. haha

[Hal-9000]

Oh my god.. haha

Are you on weed right now? Lemme see your arms!!! :x




http://www.tehfalloutshelter.com/showthread.php?99845-Smoking-strong-pot-daily-raises-psychosis-risk-study-finds

[lost in melb.]

https://youtu.be/9ZKvB0eGt8k

[Muddy]

Maybe there wont be a retribution hit and this event can start the peoples journey of coming together.

[Pony]

Some of the first things I read on mainstream sites/portions of Twitter was equivalent to - Look how many people Muslim attacks have killed, this is an evening up measure.



That's just sad. And scary that many seem to think this way these days. Even in much less horrible circumstances, Tribalism is dangerous at any level.

Doesn't matter if it's white,black Christian, Muslim, liberal, conservative, man, woman (other).... All the "us vs them" thinking like that seems to be reaching a tipping point. It's all cult like behavior. And that terrifies me.

[Hal-9000]

Whoa...This was the egg guy?

"Queensland senator Fraser Anning tweeted: “Does anyone still dispute the link between Muslim immigration and violence?”

Here is a statement he made talking about the shooting:

https://i.imgur.com/gjc5yWo.jpg


This guy just fueled the fire with his idiotic far right bible spouting bullshit. Way to go ..."leader of people". :|

[Teh One Who Knocks]

https://i.imgur.com/KNIXfZAl.jpg

[DemonGeminiX]

And they banned "assault weapons" because of this. Yep, New Zealand went the knee jerk route and punished their entire nation for the crimes of a few nutjobs.

[lost in melb.]

The seem to be able to keep '.22s'

https://s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/multitools.newscdn.com.au/multitools/slider/content/1553142659540/NED-0336-New-Zealand-Gun-reforms_Z1cw7hVOuT.jpg

[DemonGeminiX]

.22's are used for small game hunting. Birds, squirrels, rabbits and such. They're relatively useless when it comes to self defense. Good thing they still have their shotguns, but that will be little comfort in an invasion/insurrection against tyranny scenario.

Gun bans are completely and utterly stupid. The only thing gun bans do is make criminals and victims out of law abiding citizens. Criminals don't care about gun laws. If they cared about laws at all to begin with, they wouldn't be criminals, now would they?

[lost in melb.]

I vaguely remember going Target shooting with a .22 semi with my uncle. It was fun. The more powerful ones scare the crap outta me. Like going from a pony to a bronco...

I don't know much about gun law history in NZ, so we'll see. There was a lot of resistance in AUS and still is...

[DemonGeminiX]

I vaguely remember going Target shooting with a .22 semi with my uncle. It was fun. The more powerful ones scare the crap outta me. Like going from a pony to a bronco...

I don't know much about gun law history in NZ, so we'll see. There was a lot of resistance in AUS and still is...

You get used to the kick. I never thought much about shotguns until I fired my first 12 gauge slug. Pushed my wheelchair back about an inch or two. It surprised me, really.

If New Zealanders really don't want the gun ban, then come time for reelection, a lot of MP politicians will be out of a job. I believe their House members' elections are every 3 years?

I can give you all the reasons for turning your back on politicians that call for gun bans, but it doesn't really matter. It's not my country. I'd just hate to see a (relatively) free country devolve.

[lost in melb.]

There's a lot of news about it in the state of NSW if you Google. Politicians threatening to resign and such over any weakening. I keep our of it... Fortunately my grandfather's beautiful hunting rifles were unaffected by the ban. This was years ago.

They won't resist much in NZ. Politicians know all about timing. Strike while on knees!

[Pony]

I saw somewhere that the number of voluntary gun turn in's so far has reached a staggering........37 guns.

They may have to get the armed militia to go door to door to confiscate the rest.

[RBP]

https://i.imgur.com/1ebu4Fe.png

[Hal-9000]

https://i.imgur.com/1ebu4Fe.png

I read some stats on the Vox site (?) about gun ownership around the world. Yes America has more guns than people apparently along with the highest amount of deaths per million people due to gunshots. I liked the way the stats were presented taking into account the amount per million rather than an overall population tally and random stats like the US having the largest amount of unregistered firearms per category. How they determine that other than simple deduction of serial numbers made vs registrations, is beyond me.

In a strange coincidence I was reading about the Port Arthur Massacre a few weeks back and asked a question to one of our Aussie comrades, never got a response. Australia changed their gun laws after the event, did a voluntary culling etc and their gun related deaths dropped considerably. Of course the frequency of mass shootings in Australia and New Zealand were quite a bit lower than the US to begin with. The site I was reading also had some compelling information about the number of people with mental health problems involved in shooting incidents around the world and it's lower than one would suspect. I consider all mass shooters to have mental health issues.

New Zealand lost more people in one day than the entire previous year, so I can understand their current actions. Their Prime Minister's explanation was simple. If certain types of firearms are easy to acquire, reduce the ease of purchase because simple background checks don't identify potentially unstable murderers. Yes it's an old argument saying the same unbalanced people will find a way, and she's going to make it the process harder for them to find that way. I can understand the thinking.

[DemonGeminiX]

I read some stats on the Vox site (?) about gun ownership around the world. Yes America has more guns than people apparently along with the highest amount of deaths per million people due to gunshots. I liked the way the stats were presented taking into account the amount per million rather than an overall population tally and random stats like the US having the largest amount of unregistered firearms per category. How they determine that other than simple deduction of serial numbers made vs registrations, is beyond me.

Firearms purchased legally can be tracked quite easily by number of background checks performed daily through NICS, and/or number of transfer forms filled out per day. There's an ATF form for transfers that we have to fill out for every purchase made... it's the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

I suppose they could be counted everyday quite easily.

[Pony]

Firearms purchased legally can be tracked quite easily by number of background checks performed daily through NICS, and/or number of transfer forms filled out per day. There's an ATF form for transfers that we have to fill out for every purchase made... it's the law.

I suppose they could be counted everyday quite easily.

I think if I decide to make a new purchase this year it will likely be from a private seller.

[RBP]

I read some stats on the Vox site (?) about gun ownership around the world. Yes America has more guns than people apparently along with the highest amount of deaths per million people due to gunshots. I liked the way the stats were presented taking into account the amount per million rather than an overall population tally and random stats like the US having the largest amount of unregistered firearms per category. How they determine that other than simple deduction of serial numbers made vs registrations, is beyond me.

In a strange coincidence I was reading about the Port Arthur Massacre a few weeks back and asked a question to one of our Aussie comrades, never got a response. Australia changed their gun laws after the event, did a voluntary culling etc and their gun related deaths dropped considerably. Of course the frequency of mass shootings in Australia and New Zealand were quite a bit lower than the US to begin with. The site I was reading also had some compelling information about the number of people with mental health problems involved in shooting incidents around the world and it's lower than one would suspect. I consider all mass shooters to have mental health issues.

New Zealand lost more people in one day than the entire previous year, so I can understand their current actions. Their Prime Minister's explanation was simple. If certain types of firearms are easy to acquire, reduce the ease of purchase because simple background checks don't identify potentially unstable murderers. Yes it's an old argument saying the same unbalanced people will find a way, and she's going to make it the process harder for them to find that way. I can understand the thinking.

It's much easier in countries without constitutional protections for private gun ownership.

[Hal-9000]

Firearms purchased legally can be tracked quite easily by number of background checks performed daily through NICS, and/or number of transfer forms filled out per day. There's an ATF form for transfers that we have to fill out for every purchase made... it's the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

I suppose they could be counted everyday quite easily.

It's the disparity between the two comments that I find puzzling. I'll use a made up example, ignore the numbers and percentages.

The US has 310 million firearms in the country.
The US has the highest amount of firearms that are unregistered at 50%.

So me and math-mind say - Hey wait there's a total disconnect here. How can they get an overall count without the guns being registered?
Or more succinctly, how do they know how many guns are in existence on American soil without every owner following the rules?

[DemonGeminiX]

It's the disparity between the two comments that I find puzzling. I'll use a made up example, ignore the numbers and percentages.

The US has 310 million firearms in the country.
The US has the highest amount of firearms that are unregistered at 50%.

So me and math-mind say - Hey wait there's a total disconnect here. How can they get an overall count without the guns being registered?
Or more succinctly, how do they know how many guns are in existence on American soil without every owner following the rules?

Well for one thing, we don't have to register our firearms, at least firearms that aren't NFA items, and the Gov's supposedly not keeping a registry so I don't know what's going on there.

The NICS background check system is digital, so presuming that denials result in a sale not being made, every time a NICS background check comes back green, they count it as 1, and keep a running tally for statistical purposes, maybe? I really don't know, I'm just throwing possibilities out there.

[Hal-9000]

Reason for my question is from a comment Southern Belle made a long time ago on AS. At the time she was a single lady living alone in Northern Carolina, off the beaten path somewhere.

Belle said she didn't know how many guns she had around the house, probably 4 or 5 but only 2 are registered lol! (it was her lol in the comment)

I've always found the comment a little unsettling while fully supporting the idea she needs protection.

Then it made me wonder if the police ever found out you had or saw you using an unregistered weapon, do they fine you or take away the weapon? Thinking of a big shoot out in the 'hood now, in Any Big City. I would guess that cops see a lot of interactions like that where none of the guns are legal/registered.

[Hal-9000]

Well for one thing, we don't have to register our firearms, at least firearms that aren't NFA items, and the Gov's supposedly not keeping a registry so I don't know what's going on there.

The NICS background check system is digital, so presuming that denials result in a sale not being made, every time a NICS background check comes back green, they count it as 1, and keep a running tally for statistical purposes, maybe? I really don't know, I'm just throwing possibilities out there.

You don't have to register all guns?

Ok, that's where the unusually high stat of unregistered weapons comes from that I read. It was in the 90's %-wise and I thought it had to be wrong.

[DemonGeminiX]

You don't have to register all guns?

Ok, that's where the unusually high stat of unregistered weapons comes from that I read. It was in the 90's %-wise and I thought it had to be wrong.

No, there is no gun registration in the USA. At least not on the federal level. I think California, NY, or NJ might be doing it on the state level, but then again, I really don't know, as I don't live in any of those Commie nanny states and it doesn't concern me a whole lot.

They may have just been contrasting the US with other countries that do require registration, which fuck that, it's our birth right and blah blah blah, stuff I posted thousands of times before, government has no right, yadda yadda yadda...

Yeah.

[Hal-9000]

No, there is no gun registration in the USA. At least not on the federal level. I think California, NY, or NJ might be doing it on the state level, but then again, I really don't know, as I don't live in any of those Commie nanny states and it doesn't concern me a whole lot.

They may have just been contrasting the US with other countries that do require registration, which fuck that, it's our birth right and blah blah blah, stuff I posted thousands of times before, government has no right, yadda yadda yadda...

Yeah.

Mind blown, thanks I didn't know that.

No the site was being neutral in it's presentation of stats, not trying to put the US on a pedestal over and above the rest of the countries or making it the one example to compare all others against. In some cases other countries got the 'bad' stat so to speak and I found the writer was even handed in the tone of the article. It was more a - Here's a world view on gun ownership and how different countries sit based on their individual rules.

[KevinD]

Nope actually, none of mine are registered. Not really by intent or anything. Just the way it worked out. I've inherited a couple, and been gifted others. They are all oldish. Only semi auto I currently have is a .40cal pistol. Everything else is bolt or pump action and one single shot .410

[Hal-9000]

Nope actually, none of mine are registered. Not really by intent or anything. Just the way it worked out. I've inherited a couple, and been gifted others. They are all oldish. Only semi auto I currently have is a .40cal pistol. Everything else is bokt, or pump action and one single shot .410

So how does the government know what you own? For example you want to buy a new handgun. Go to the store, pick one and then you have a background check done based on your picture ID I would suppose, wait whatever waiting time the state demands, then you go back a second time to pick it up? Is that close to actual?

[Teh One Who Knocks]

So how does the government know what you own? For example you want to buy a new handgun. Go to the store, pick one and then you have a background check done based on your picture ID I would suppose, wait whatever waiting time the state demands, then you go back a second time to pick it up? Is that close to actual?

Most states do an instant background check, takes 10 minutes give or take. You can take the gun home with you that day unless the state you live in, like California for example, has a waiting period. I believe California is either a 10 or 14 day waiting period.

The federal government does not track who owns what.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

https://i.imgur.com/vxrwfMS.png

https://www.gunstocarry.com/gun-laws-state/

[fricnjay]

https://i.imgur.com/zQXrocT.jpg

Honestly this isn't 100% accurate but its actually pretty close.

[Hal-9000]

Most states do an instant background check, takes 10 minutes give or take. You can take the gun home with you that day unless the state you live in, like California for example, has a waiting period. I believe California is either a 10 or 14 day waiting period.

The federal government does not track who owns what.

Isn't that a kid in the candy store scenario? Wait, belay that question! :lol:

Don't want this to go south. (go south? I'm on fire today)


Thanks for the info. I thought the process was a little more controlled in terms of serial numbers/registering weapons. It does explain a lot and I don't mean that in a pissy way. Once you pass the initial background check the user has the freedom to do whatever they want without the specter of the government knowing that 9mm was registered to Lance Smith. I suppose the serial number for it would be on the bill of sale? Just in case the weapon was connected to a crime?

[fricnjay]

Isn't that a kid in the candy store scenario? Wait, belay that question! :lol:

Don't want this to go south. (go south? I'm on fire today)


Thanks for the info. I thought the process was a little more controlled in terms of serial numbers/registering weapons. It does explain a lot and I don't mean that in a pissy way. Once you pass the initial background check the user has the freedom to whatever they want without the specter of the government knowing that 9mm was registered to Lance Smith. I suppose the serial number for it would be on the bill of sale? Just in case the weapon was connected to a crime?

If you live in a state like mine (Texas) where you can get a license to carry in public you forgo all the waiting periods and backgrounds checks.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

Isn't that a kid in the candy store scenario? Wait, belay that question! :lol:

Don't want this to go south. (go south? I'm on fire today)


Thanks for the info. I thought the process was a little more controlled in terms of serial numbers/registering weapons. It does explain a lot and I don't mean that in a pissy way. Once you pass the initial background check the user has the freedom to do whatever they want without the specter of the government knowing that 9mm was registered to Lance Smith. I suppose the serial number for it would be on the bill of sale? Just in case the weapon was connected to a crime?

Usually you pick out the gun before the background check, then you fill out the required paperwork, and then the clerk calls in for the background check, which usually is maintained by the FBI I believe. And I believe that the store owner is required to keep a list of each weapon sold and the serial number of the weapon, but it isn't listed as to who purchased it.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

If you live in a state like mine (Texas) where you can get a license to carry in public you forgo all the waiting periods and backgrounds checks.

:umno:

Every single state requires an NICS background check when buying a gun from a licensed dealer. There is no way around that, it's federal law.

EDIT: unless you have a license in Texas where you have to keep renewing it to see if you are now prohibited from buying a gun, because that status is always subject to change if you break certain laws.

[Hal-9000]

Usually you pick out the gun before the background check, then you fill out the required paperwork, and then the clerk calls in for the background check, which usually is maintained by the FBI I believe. And I believe that the store owner is required to keep a list of each weapon sold and the serial number of the weapon, but it isn't listed as to who purchased it.

So there's no database connection between you and the new weapon.

Remembering the mob movies where guys do hits in broad daylight and then drop the guns at the site. I used to think watching - Well someone has gotta own that gun at one point! Trace it!

Didn't realize the process was like that.

[fricnjay]

:umno:

Every single state requires an NICS background check when buying a gun from a licensed dealer. There is no way around that, it's federal law.

Giffords Law Center

"Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions. As a result, handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun."

[Teh One Who Knocks]

So there's no database connection between you and the new weapon.

Remembering the mob movies where guys do hits in broad daylight and then drop the guns at the site. I used to think watching - Well someone has gotta own that gun at one point! Trace it!

Didn't realize the process was like that.

That is correct, unless you live in a city or state where it's required to have that particular firearm registered to you. There si zero federal law requiring registration.

[Hal-9000]

That is correct, unless you live in a city or state where it's required to have that particular firearm registered to you. There si zero federal law requiring registration.

Do you think if they attached more of an ownership piece to the process, as in - Lance Smith bought this 9mm today, paid 500 dollars, serial number blah blah, that could restrict the desire to use the gun being fired during muggings, parking lot disputes etc, because the owner could be more easily traced if someone was shot with that weapon?

I know you guys are responsible owners but it seems like a loose process.

[KevinD]

So how does the government know what you own? For example you want to buy a new handgun. Go to the store, pick one and then you have a background check done based on your picture ID I would suppose, wait whatever waiting time the state demands, then you go back a second time to pick it up? Is that close to actual?

As far as I know, there is no real way for the government to know what firearms a person has.some cities (and states) require all firearms to be registered, most dont. This is why I take any discussion about firearms in the US with a hefty grain of salt. Any numbers used in said discussion are guesses at best, more typically skewed towards whatever point the narrator is trying to make. I'm not necessarily against registration of firearms, nor do I think it would be a bad thing with current federal government. Where the fed is heading (witness current hard trend towards socialism) on the other hand, no way do I want those nuts knowing what I have.

[Hal-9000]

As far as I know, there is no real way for the government to know what firearms a person has.some cities (and states) require all firearms to be registered, most dont. This is why I take any discussion about firearms in the US with a hefty grain of salt. Any numbers used in said discussion are guesses at best, more typically skewed towards whatever point the narrator is trying to make. I'm not necessarily against registration of firearms, nor do I think it would be a bad thing with current federal government. Where the fed is heading (witness current hard trend towards socialism) on the other hand, no way do I want those nuts knowing what I have.

Yeah I'm of a like mind. If I'm a responsible gun owner I'd have no problem registering them. And it may be a small deterrent to people considering using them to harm someone during daily disputes. Not thinking of the mass shooters in this instance because they're a different breed of gun user.

Reason for the questions is because this NZ guy went through the country's processes properly, no red flags were raised and I have to admit the idea of what happened is disturbing. I'm trying to think of what could be done to lessen or prevent this shit from happening.


Thanks for the input/info everyone, very illuminating. I gotta duck out to pick up some supplies, brb :thumbsup:

[fricnjay]

As far as I know, there is no real way for the government to know what firearms a person has.some cities (and states) require all firearms to be registered, most dont. This is why I take any discussion about firearms in the US with a hefty grain of salt. Any numbers used in said discussion are guesses at best, more typically skewed towards whatever point the narrator is trying to make. I'm not necessarily against registration of firearms, nor do I think it would be a bad thing with current federal government. Where the fed is heading (witness current hard trend towards socialism) on the other hand, no way do I want those nuts knowing what I have.

Thats why every gun I own is bought used. :tup:

[DemonGeminiX]

:umno:

Every single state requires an NICS background check when buying a gun from a licensed dealer. There is no way around that, it's federal law.

EDIT: unless you have a license in Texas where you have to keep renewing it to see if you are now prohibited from buying a gun, because that status is always subject to change if you break certain laws.

In some states, our carry/weapons license is our background check, but we still have to fill out the ATF transfer form. And yeah, in GA, it's renewed every 5 years. I have to renew mine in 2021. I can walk into any gun shop, flop down my weapons license on the counter, point to any gun and say "I'll take that one", fill out the ATF transfer form, pay for the gun, and then leave with my new gun.

[Teh One Who Knocks]

In some states, our carry/weapons license is our background check, but we still have to fill out the ATF transfer form. And yeah, in GA, it's renewed every 5 years. I have to renew mine in 2021. I can walk into any gun shop, flop down my weapons license on the counter, point to any gun and say "I'll take that one", fill out the ATF transfer form, pay for the gun, and then leave with my new gun.

I would assume then in states like that, if you commit a felony or any other crime that would revoke your right to own a firearm, the LEA would inform the state to revoke your license?

[DemonGeminiX]

The federal government does not track who owns what.

Allegedly. If we all had a dime for each time they said they weren't doing something but we found out later that they were...

[DemonGeminiX]

I would assume then in states like that, if you commit a felony or any other crime that would revoke your right to own a firearm, the LEA would inform the state to revoke your license?

Yeah, I think so.

[Pony]

So there's no database connection between you and the new weapon.

Remembering the mob movies where guys do hits in broad daylight and then drop the guns at the site. I used to think watching - Well someone has gotta own that gun at one point! Trace it!

Didn't realize the process was like that.

If they search my name they shouldn't see that I own anything. But if they find a gun used in a crime and search the serial they can trace it back to bill of sale and find my name that way. If I sold the gun to someone else the trail ends there unless I know who I sold it to or the new owner voluntarily registers it.

As far as crime goes I'd think most guns used are likely stolen. Most guns found by cops are either stolen or confiscated because they are breaking the laws by having a loaded weapon in a car or having one concealed without proper license.

Here in Ohio currently I go to the store, pick out a gun, get the background check and 10 minutes later upon passing I take it to the register and buy it.

Transporting in a car guns have to be unloaded and locked in a compartment and separate from ammo. (gun in trunk, ammo in glovebox, etc).

IF I get a concealed carry license which requires a more thorough background check I believe at a State Trooper post, 8 hours of training, etc I can carry concealed, can carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle. If I get pulled over the cop should see I have a CCL when he runs my tags and I would be required to notify him IMMEDIATELY that I'm armed when he approaches my car. Not sure if I'd be required to register at least one of my guns.




Allegedly. If we all had a dime for each time they said they weren't doing something but we found out later that they were...

Yep, they say they don't keep a database of NICS checks but I am skeptical about that.

[Hal-9000]

... But if they find a gun used in a crime and search the serial they can trace it back to bill of sale and find my name that way. If I sold the gun to someone else the trail ends there unless I know who I sold it to or the new owner voluntarily registers it...

This is the kind of thing I'm curious about. It can't be so anonymous that after something happens the authorities have no way to locate the weapon's owner. And yes I understand that a lot of crimes are committed using stolen and less than legal firearms.

In trials they use the ballistic striations on the bullets and match that to specific guns. Only thing is, they have to get the gun first to attempt the match. And have a leftover casing intact enough to do the comparison in the first place. Homicide forensics fascinate me because of the work involved when they do nail someone based on evidence.

I'm likely a minority here but if I owned a firearm I wouldn't have any issue with government factions (keep seeing NICS mentioned in posts here) checking on my safe and legal purchases. In fact, if it exonerates me from a crime all the better.

[Pony]

I'm likely a minority here but if I owned a firearm I wouldn't have any issue with government factions (keep seeing NICS mentioned in posts here) checking on my safe and legal purchases. In fact, if it exonerates me from a crime all the better.

A lot of that stems from our inherent mistrust in government. IF we could trust that mandatory registration would never lead to confiscation, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
The anti gun people were just saying a couple years ago "No one wants to take your guns away, you're paranoid". Now some states have already passed "assault weapon" bans which are so broadly worded they cover almost all semi-auto rifles, not just AR type. In those area's mandatory registration has already led to armed men knocking on doors to take guns away from otherwise law abiding people. And the left keeps saying they want to make those bans Federal.

When they successfully ban rifles and shootings continue, they will simply ban semi-auto handguns, and on and on til no one has the right to own anything.

I have a little .22 rifle that's good for target practice and small game. Not much else. It holds a 10 round mag. Under some of the proposals I've seen it would fall under the "assault" weapons ban simply because the mag is detachable. Fat chance I will register it.

[Godfather]

I'm likely a minority here but if I owned a firearm I wouldn't have any issue with government factions (keep seeing NICS mentioned in posts here) checking on my safe and legal purchases. In fact, if it exonerates me from a crime all the better.

That's actually how it is up here (not sure if you knew that already and were just making the point)! There are 'classes' for firearms. A hunting rifle is non-restricted so you just need a firearms license which means you took a short course, passed an exam, and background check including calls to three sponsors. But if you have 'restricted' weapons like assault rifles and handguns, it's a bit more hoop-jumping to get that license, you need to file a permit showing your a member or a range to transport it (because you can't shoot restricted weapons on government land/forests like you can non-restricted), and thirdly the government can come and inspect to ensure you're locking it up according to the strict laws. I know gun owners who've have the RCMP come and inspect their safes when they're installing them just to make sure it's all kosher, because you don't want to get caught fucking up your storage.

[Griffin]

Here's why we don't want t register our guns. This guy tried to abide by the law and paid the consequences.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6Lyeeq17fY

[Hal-9000]

That's actually how it is up here (not sure if you knew that already and were just making the point)! There are 'classes' for firearms. A hunting rifle is non-restricted so you just need a firearms license which means you took a short course, passed an exam, and background check including calls to three sponsors. But if you have 'restricted' weapons like assault rifles and handguns, it's a bit more hoop-jumping to get that license, you need to file a permit showing your a member or a range to transport it (because you can't shoot restricted weapons on government land/forests like you can non-restricted), and thirdly the government can come and inspect to ensure you're locking it up according to the strict laws. I know gun owners who've have the RCMP come and inspect their safes when they're installing them just to make sure it's all kosher, because you don't want to get caught fucking up your storage.

Good info and thanks but is there method in place for us in terms of a particular firearm being attached to your name in some way? Serial number = name and address sort of thing?

[Godfather]

Good info and thanks but is there method in place for us in terms of a particular firearm being attached to your name in some way? Serial number = name and address sort of thing?

Yes, restricted firearms are registered to your name and address, and again you can't even transport them without the proper permits. The law is even such that when you transport a registered firearm you must go straight to the range and home, can't even leave it in your vehicle unattended to grab a slurpee :lol:

Non-restricted firearms like hunting rifles and .22's are no longer registered to your name (still need a license renewed every 5 years to buy/own them). You might remember it was a big debate when the conservatives ditched the Long Gun Registry for non-restricted weapons maybe 5-8 years back. These are weapons limited to 5 round capacity, no 'black rifles' or anything with a short barrel length or handguns, basically hunting rifles and pump action shotguns owned by hunters and sport shooters. It was extremely expensive to maintain a registry on these types of guns (over $500 million over its lifetime of 20 years), 92% of police officers polled said they didn't find it useful, and there was no evidence it had done anything to curb gun violence in places where it's an issue like Toronto, because at the end of the day if you want a gun for nefarious purposes you can go buy a handgun off the streets no problem.

Don't get me wrong, I support the restricted firearms laws and registry, but the non-restricted registry was a bit much. My uncle was RCMP in a rural community and said they basically stopped even checking on their way to calls because everyone has a hunting rifle up north, don't need a registry to tell you that :lol:

[Hal-9000]

A lot of that stems from our inherent mistrust in government. IF we could trust that mandatory registration would never lead to confiscation, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
The anti gun people were just saying a couple years ago "No one wants to take your guns away, you're paranoid". Now some states have already passed "assault weapon" bans which are so broadly worded they cover almost all semi-auto rifles, not just AR type. In those area's mandatory registration has already led to armed men knocking on doors to take guns away from otherwise law abiding people. And the left keeps saying they want to make those bans Federal.

When they successfully ban rifles and shootings continue, they will simply ban semi-auto handguns, and on and on til no one has the right to own anything.

I have a little .22 rifle that's good for target practice and small game. Not much else. It holds a 10 round mag. Under some of the proposals I've seen it would fall under the "assault" weapons ban simply because the mag is detachable. Fat chance I will register it.

Yes that falls into the discussion of what a particular individual considers necessary in terms of a weapon. I have my own thoughts on the need of semi automatic and automatic weapons in average joe's hands, but that's a different discussion.

I believe your country is allowed a broader spectrum of freedoms concerning gun ownership when compared to the rest of the world. Yeah you're right, it does sound a little paranoid hearing that fear of - The government may confiscate all of the guns from the entire civilian population if we start registering them or some sort of specific ownership system is put into place. If a country gets to that tipping point where the government calls for a mass removal of the public's weapons, I suspect the events behind that act will overshadow any clerical aspect of trying to locate the gun owners. Simply put the announcement itself will likely start a war. Interesting discussion again maybe for later.

Getting away from inherit mistrust in government for a moment, I read an article from someone in the military. He did two tours in Iraq and was involved in firefights and skirmishes. He said the thing that bothers him about civilian gun ownership is the lack of training before purchase. He outlined how much training he had to go through, and also listed training necessary for police officers in his state. He said his military experience was nothing like the movies. In wartime the soldiers in his unit didn't have the ability to constantly carry firearms around. The guns had to be issued before and after specific missions. His point was that he finds it (his words) unusually worrisome that civilians without any form of training or experience can use whatever number of and type of weapons their state allows. He didn't restrict this critique to the US, saying that prospective civilian buyers from any country should have to demonstrate aptitude first.

I agree with the idea and brought it up because the world is going to watch New Zealand and see how their new reform will impact life there. And make no mistake, I do support private ownership and always have a moment of personal rejoicing when I hear the odd story about Grandpa Bill shooting a home invader. Protection is the top reason in my mind for having a weapon in the first place.

Not sure if you heard about it. We had a horrible event on a Greyhound bus up here a few years ago. Guy with a large knife sat beside a young stranger at the back of the bus and proceeded to stab him until dead, and then it got really fucking bizarre. If one person had a gun on this bus, the outcome may have been different.

Check out the five paragraphs in the Incident section below when you have a moment. It was nightmare fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean

[Hal-9000]

.. The law is even such that when you transport a registered firearm you must go straight to the range and home, can't even leave it in your vehicle unattended to grab a slurpee :lol:...

dude...Can't even leave my weapon unattended in a baby's crib :slap:

Thanks for the info :lol: Now did you see my post in the toaster thread? No, you should check it out :thumbsup:


*I remember the long gun reform...living in Conservative country like I do.

[DemonGeminiX]

:shock:

They fucking released that animal?!?!? Are you fucking kidding me?!?

[Godfather]

:shock:

They fucking released that animal?!?!? Are you fucking kidding me?!?

What!? I can't find it online, link?

[DemonGeminiX]

From Hal's post on the previous page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean

[Hal-9000]

:shock:

They fucking released that animal?!?!? Are you fucking kidding me?!?

I think it was six years psych treatment and then yes, halfway house and then he's on his own now :|


In case any of you are confusing me with a totally sympathetic liberal type who believes in counseling and love for all...not a chance. This person is wired wrong and never will be wired right.

His defenders say that he needed medication when the event happened. Fuck that. Even if that's the case (where medication can temper his urges) what happens next time he's off his meds???

One of the few news stories that made me not proud to be a Canadian. We give first degree killers life up here, our justice system isn't unusually lenient for serious crimes.

I took a good look at that guy's picture because if I'm going to work in the Walmart shipping department I want to know who my coworkers are.

[DemonGeminiX]

If he declared insanity down here, if they accepted the plea, his ass would've been in a mental institution until the day the fucker died.

[Godfather]

From Hal's post on the previous page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean

Oh sorry I thought you were talking Mosque guy.

Yes... a disturbing end to a disturbing story.

It's an interesting case I guess. Guy was a smart, computer scientist who had a major mental break (clearly). I suppose we're supposed to trust in the years of medical evaluation and tests physicians and health professionals did while in a high risk mental health hospital to conclude that he was mentally well and stable now... but it just doesn't seem right to let someone out in the public ever again who is capable of this. I wish the physicians were forced to make their reports public. I'd like to know how many meds this guy is on still.

[Hal-9000]

If he declared insanity down here, if they accepted the plea, his ass would've been in a mental institution until the day the fucker died.

Yes it wasn't only a stabbing. He dissected the guy and ate/played/pocketed the various body parts. He displayed the severed head to passengers sitting outside while he was trapped on the bus.

Sorry to people like Lost who are in the industry, but no amount of counseling/drugs/jail time will reform people who cross that line.

If you're curious, read any book by John Douglas or Robert Ressler and discover their opinions on how jail time and/or counseling impacts killers of that nature. Spoiler alert, it doesn't.

[Hal-9000]

Oh sorry I thought you were talking Mosque guy.

Yes... a disturbing end to a disturbing story.

It's an interesting case I guess. Guy was a smart, computer scientist who had a major mental break (clearly). I suppose we're supposed to trust in the years of medical evaluation and tests physicians and health professionals did while in a high risk mental health hospital to conclude that he was mentally well and stable now... but it just doesn't seem right to let someone out in the public ever again who is capable of this. I wish the physicians were forced to make their reports public. I'd like to know how many meds this guy is on still.

Sure and I see it as the bookend effect. The guy was smart and a contributing member to society up until a certain point. He has his 'break' and now after some treatment he is deemed well enough to be alone now. Next break is scheduled to appear when?

[Godfather]

If he declared insanity down here, if they accepted the plea, his ass would've been in a mental institution until the day the fucker died.

Perhaps, but it's not always the case even in the US. Insanity is a legitimate legal defense, even if it's rarely used and accepted. I know the girl in that Slender Man case was declared not guilty because of it. She got something like 25 years in a mental institution but it's up to psych evaluation after that. Just looked it up now and she could be out in as few as three years.

[Hal-9000]

Okay here's a topic closer to subject matter.

I read the NZ shooter was working part time as a personal trainer in a small town. And then I read how widely traveled the guy was in the months leading up to the shooting. He visited a few countries worldwide.

May not be important but how does a guy like that finance all of the travel not to mention fancy riot gear, what looked like a new vehicle, bunch of new weapons and his kit materials for his potential bombs he allegedly had onboard. Does anyone think he may have had a sponsor? Like a white nationalist type sponsor?

[Godfather]

Sure and I see it as the bookend effect. The guy was smart and a contributing member to society up until a certain point. He has his 'break' and now after some treatment he is deemed well enough to be alone now. Next break is scheduled to appear when?

Yep, and that's how the public and the poor guy's family is always going to look at it. There's an extremely heavy emotional side and sense of injustice here that we as members of the public can't shake because of how hideous the crime was. That said, I'd love to hear from his doctors. It's safe to say that they had some very smart and educated people working with him. I certainly don't celebrate them for getting him released, I just want to understand better, whether they sleep at night knowing he's out there, or if they really do feel like he's safe in the public. It would be a fascinating book to read if they could write it (though I'm sure there is some red tape to his medical records :roll: )

[Hal-9000]

Yep, and that's how the public and the poor guy's family is always going to look at it. There's an extremely heavy emotional side and sense of injustice here that we as members of the public can't shake because of how hideous the crime was. That said, I'd love to hear from his doctors. It's safe to say that they had some very smart and educated people working with him. I certainly don't celebrate them for getting him released, I just want to understand better, whether they sleep at night knowing he's out there, or if they really do feel like he's safe in the public. It would be a fascinating book to read if they could write it (though I'm sure there is some red tape to his medical records :roll: )

True story real close to home. The sister of the guy who I used to buy weed from was killed by a mental health patient under her care. It happened in Grande Prairie a few years back and I can find the story link with some digging. She was a social worker/mental health counselor and her job involved being part of the process determining patient fitness to leave the facility. In a horrible case of irony, one of the patients who was deemed recovering and not a danger made an appointment with her, closed the door and strangled her :| His past was filled with violent acts, but I never found out what his original crimes were. This was my friend's older sister who was killed. Their family has never really recovered.

[Godfather]

True story real close to home. The sister of the guy who I used to buy weed from was killed by a mental health patient under her care. It happened in Grande Prairie a few years back and I can find the story link with some digging. She was a social worker/mental health counselor and her job involved being part of the process determining patient fitness to leave the facility. In a horrible case of irony, one of the patients who was deemed recovering and not a danger made an appointment with her, closed the door and strangled her :| His past was filled with violent acts, but I never found out what his original crimes were. This was my friend's older sister who was killed. Their family has never really recovered.

That's incredibly sad.

I don't envy anyone working with mental health patients, the system sucks, the treatment doesn't always work, the stigma around the entire profession and the patients is bad. Some of my wife's friends from medical school are in their psychiatric residencies and I worry for them. There's a high suicide and burnout rate. They're now made to have monthly visits to psychiatrists themselves to try and help. It's also physically dangerous, they've all had chairs thrown at them, been spit on, grabbed, and get verbally abused daily. I couldn't do it.

[Hal-9000]

That's incredibly sad.

I don't envy anyone working with mental health patients, the system sucks, the treatment doesn't always work, the stigma around the entire profession and the patients is bad. Some of my wife's friends from medical school are in their psychiatric residencies and I worry for them. There's a high suicide and burnout rate. They're now made to have monthly visits to psychiatrists themselves to try and help. It's also physically dangerous, they've all had chairs thrown at them, been spit on, grabbed, and get verbally abused daily. I couldn't do it.

Yeah man when I visit my Mom I immerse myself in a room with 30 other dementia patients. She's on floor seven. Floor eight is for violent patients and unfortunately most dementia patients develop a form of anger or violent physical tendencies. I've watched patients make the progression and get moved in the four years or so I've been going.

And I hate to say it, but I do watch every male patient closely on my Mom's floor. If they do something out of line I'll do whatever I think is necessary to stop it.