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Thread: Conservative group hires German teen Naomi Seibt to rival Greta Thunberg’s climate views

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    Post-op activist lost in melb.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    But again, the coverage is so wildly partisan, you have no idea what's truth and fiction.
    I could watch her YouTubes, that could give me a more genuine idea of what she's like.

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    OMWTFYB RBP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lost in melb. View Post
    I could watch her YouTubes, that could give me a more genuine idea of what she's like.
    Until someone tells me that cow farts aren't the problem, that scientists aren't funded based on whether they give the funders the answers they want, and a tragic prediction actually happened, I'm tuned out and laughing at the sucker's game for the hysteria money.

    I'm going to try and transcribe a book excerpt for you... explain pretty well how I feel about it.
    I wanted to be a Monk, but I never got the chants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    I'm going to try and transcribe a book excerpt for you... explain pretty well how I feel about it.


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    Post-op activist lost in melb.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    Until someone tells me that cow farts aren't the problem, that scientists aren't funded based on whether they give the funders the answers they want, and a tragic prediction actually happened, I'm tuned out and laughing at the sucker's game for the hysteria money.

    I'm going to try and transcribe a book excerpt for you... explain pretty well how I feel about it.
    Or until climate change affects you or your family personally. That's how it tends to go with conservatives

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    Until someone tells me that cow farts aren't the problem, that scientists aren't funded based on whether they give the funders the answers they want, and a tragic prediction actually happened, I'm tuned out and laughing at the sucker's game for the hysteria money.
    Quote Originally Posted by lost in melb. View Post
    Or until climate change affects you or your family personally. That's how it tends to go with conservatives
    This reminds me of the Faithful's "God exists" argument to the Atheist who argues that God doesn't exist.

    "Would you really want to find out that you were wrong all along after you die and you have to spend all eternity in Hell?"

    Trying to strong arm someone to your side with an implied threat that can also be neither proven nor disproven. It's a callous and tacky tactic, and quite frankly, beneath someone of your intelligence.
    Last edited by DemonGeminiX; 02-29-2020 at 01:24 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lost in melb. View Post
    Or until climate change affects you or your family personally. That's how it tends to go with conservatives
    Which is exactly the response expected when the specific points mentioned can't be contradicted. Your position is no more defensible than mine or anyone else's. The woke/enlightened thing doesn't play with me.
    I wanted to be a Monk, but I never got the chants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    Which is exactly the response expected when the specific points mentioned can't be contradicted. Your position is no more defensible than mine or anyone else's. The woke/enlightened thing doesn't play with me.
    I can contradict them, or put more gently come up with some counter arguments. I was just being lazy. I think it's not a completely foul move on my behalf, though. Conservatism is fundamentally about the close inner circle, self-sufficiency, moral strength, self discipline (combined with a great love of nation and a generous spirit and ((selective)charitability). This lends itself to a natural caution about pacifism, helping those who "can't" help themselves, universal cooperation, internationalism, universalism, the left interpretations of "right to equality",...or too much self introspection or reflection. (Doers, not comtemplators)

    So it's absolutely understandable that there is a suspicion of climate change or global warming motives or whatever you want to call it which is an absolute planet wide thing that requires planet wide cooperation.


    my suggestion was going to be, and I keep saying it but you never acknowledge it ...don't worry about predictions or specialist scientists greenies and politicians, just go for the common larger organisations like meteorological organisations, or NASA. See what the data that they have supports. Does it support a warming planet, more weather extremes, or not?

    but you won't do that, apparently on the basis of the whole thing being some big conspiracy. (but do you know anyone at NASA or the meteorological society. Have you visited them and ask for a rundown on the issue?) So, the only way I see that you're going to come around is when it affects you. I can't think of any other process.. .But forgive me if I am wrong, what would what would persuade you RBP to accept that the phenomenon of climate change is real and is unfolding more or less as predicted? I'm genuinely curious?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonGeminiX View Post
    This reminds me of the Faithful's "God exists" argument to the Atheist who argues that God doesn't exist.

    "Would you really want to find out that you were wrong all along after you die and you have to spend all eternity in Hell?"

    Trying to strong arm someone to your side with an implied threat that can also be neither proven nor disproven. It's a callous and tacky tactic, and quite frankly, beneath someone of your intelligence.
    That's fine, except I'm not callous. We've been through a bit here, and I think my belief is a bit more based on fact than talking about god. Actually I feel it to be equally callous when people laugh and laugh about this notion of the Earth warming, or the climate changing, when year by year we are more more affected by it. Absolutely measurably.

    Agree nothing is proven yet. but I feel I have it the right to strong arm a little when the trend for last 15 years is towards something bad going to happen in the future. And quite frankly bad things happening now. So yeah the gloves are off a bit.

  12. #39
    This is the way DemonGeminiX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lost in melb. View Post
    That's fine, except I'm not callous. We've been through a bit here, and I think my belief is a bit more based on fact than talking about god. Actually I feel it to be equally callous when people laugh and laugh about this notion of the Earth warming, or the climate changing, when year by year we are more more affected by it. Absolutely measurably.

    Agree nothing is proven yet. but I feel I have it the right to strong arm a little when the trend for last 15 years is towards something bad going to happen in the future. And quite frankly bad things happening now. So yeah the gloves are off a bit.
    I didn't say you were callous, I said the tactic was. There's a difference.

    I've said this before: it's unreasonable to believe that the climate will remain the same forever. Maybe we're in the tail end of a golden age, maybe we've hastened the change, and maybe at this point in time there's nothing that can be done about it.

    I keep harking on this but you have more deserving targets elsewhere. If you can't convince the other countries to cease and desist then bitching at the people who are actually trying to meet you halfway isn't going to do much good, now is it? Go pick on some Chinese people for a change.

    It doesn't matter anyway. We're all going to die from this doomsday virus that the idiot Chinese have unleashed on the world by playing God without the adequate infrastructure to contain it. Live it up now. Between the apparently changing climate and Covid-19, we're in for one helluva wild ride.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lost in melb. View Post
    I can contradict them, or put more gently come up with some counter arguments. I was just being lazy. I think it's not a completely foul move on my behalf, though. Conservatism is fundamentally about the close inner circle, self-sufficiency, moral strength, self discipline (combined with a great love of nation and a generous spirit and ((selective)charitability). This lends itself to a natural caution about pacifism, helping those who "can't" help themselves, universal cooperation, internationalism, universalism, the left interpretations of "right to equality",...or too much self introspection or reflection. (Doers, not comtemplators)

    So it's absolutely understandable that there is a suspicion of climate change or global warming motives or whatever you want to call it which is an absolute planet wide thing that requires planet wide cooperation.


    my suggestion was going to be, and I keep saying it but you never acknowledge it ...don't worry about predictions or specialist scientists greenies and politicians, just go for the common larger organisations like meteorological organisations, or NASA. See what the data that they have supports. Does it support a warming planet, more weather extremes, or not?

    but you won't do that, apparently on the basis of the whole thing being some big conspiracy. (but do you know anyone at NASA or the meteorological society. Have you visited them and ask for a rundown on the issue?) So, the only way I see that you're going to come around is when it affects you. I can't think of any other process.. .But forgive me if I am wrong, what would what would persuade you RBP to accept that the phenomenon of climate change is real and is unfolding more or less as predicted? I'm genuinely curious?
    As long as you frame this as the enlightened fact holders versus the ignorant deniers and conspiracy theorists, there's nothing to discuss. I don't begrudge your position. You've come to your conclusion and I respect that. I happen to be more cynical of the motivations and the funding driving the things you accept as incontrovertible. I also don't have the same confirmation bias that says every natural disaster is automatically global warming. The California fire problem, for example, is significantly a land management problem and has been for a long time. They don't clear the underbrush because the same environmentalists who blame everything on global warming also oppose "destroying habitat" that used to be called being a good steward of the land.

    But you assume I am operating from an intellectually dishonest place, devoid of consideration... "boy if he just had the facts". Is there a warming trend? Sure, okay. Does it mean anything? Maybe, maybe not. Is it predictive of hurricane season? Nope, they fuck that up every year. The part that makes me laugh is that when someone points that out, the get "OMG. So dumb. You don't know the difference between climate and weather! " (did you read that in a valley girl voice?) To which I reply, I'm not the one predicting disastrous hurricane seasons. Is it predictive of Florida disappearing? Al Gore got that one wrong 14 years ago. I'm not sure any large scale predictions have come to fruition to date, but I'm sure there's a spin chart to force fit it. And another spin chart that shows quite the opposite. So yes, if wanting to see actual outcomes before committing to wholesale changes in society and economics makes you react with "how selfish", that's on you, my friend. Doesn't bother me in the least.
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    And it's also very likely that my perspective is driven by what I grew up with versus today. Cities were terrible. Air pollution was bad. The rivers used to catch on fire for god's sake. The EPA in it's origin was needed and did a great job. Industrial emissions massively cut - nearly eliminated, eliminated ozone depleting chemicals (some question mark there) because "the hole" THE HOLE WAS GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!! Yeah, no more hole now. Thank god, right? Vehicles are like 99% more efficient, thanks initially to catalytic converters and unleaded fuel, now just to better cars. So 40 years later we are basically making the same argument with no large scale pollution. So yes, my lived experience doesn't mesh with the gnashing of teeth by people driving clean vehicles on a clear day with no smog.

    Smog


    River fire


    But then it started going overboard, over regulation, increasing requirements, business impacts because the environmentalists always demanded more more more. That's how it works for social movements. For every social movement.

    Edit: Here's a pro EPA article from your side of the aisle. Note the inherent fear mongering - TRUMP IS TRYING TO KILL US. https://www.citylab.com/environment/...ppears/518199/
    Last edited by RBP; 02-29-2020 at 12:43 PM.
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    Greenhouse gasses are real.. core ice samples clearly show the effect we are having.. its incredible science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    And it's also very likely that my perspective is driven by what I grew up with versus today. Cities were terrible. Air pollution was bad. The rivers used to catch on fire for god's sake. The EPA in it's origin was needed and did a great job. Industrial emissions massively cut - nearly eliminated, eliminated ozone depleting chemicals (some question mark there) because "the hole" THE HOLE WAS GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!! Yeah, no more hole now. Thank god, right? Vehicles are like 99% more efficient, thanks initially to catalytic converters and unleaded fuel, now just to better cars. So 40 years later we are basically making the same argument with no large scale pollution. So yes, my lived experience doesn't mesh with the gnashing of teeth by people driving clean vehicles on a clear day with no smog.

    Smog


    River fire


    But then it started going overboard, over regulation, increasing requirements, business impacts because the environmentalists always demanded more more more. That's how it works for social movements. For every social movement.

    Edit: Here's a pro EPA article from your side of the aisle. Note the inherent fear mongering - TRUMP IS TRYING TO KILL US. https://www.citylab.com/environment/...ppears/518199/
    Because only the scientists that agree with "The Sky Is Falling" doctrine are telling the truth and ANYONE that questions it or disagrees with it is a literal lying Nazi science denier

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    Post-op activist lost in melb.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    And it's also very likely that my perspective is driven by what I grew up with versus today. Cities were terrible. Air pollution was bad. The rivers used to catch on fire for god's sake. The EPA in it's origin was needed and did a great job. Industrial emissions massively cut - nearly eliminated, eliminated ozone depleting chemicals (some question mark there) because "the hole" THE HOLE WAS GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!! Yeah, no more hole now. Thank god, right? Vehicles are like 99% more efficient, thanks initially to catalytic converters and unleaded fuel, now just to better cars. So 40 years later we are basically making the same argument with no large scale pollution. So yes, my lived experience doesn't mesh with the gnashing of teeth by people driving clean vehicles on a clear day with no smog.

    Smog


    River fire


    But then it started going overboard, over regulation, increasing requirements, business impacts because the environmentalists always demanded more more more. That's how it works for social movements. For every social movement.

    Edit: Here's a pro EPA article from your side of the aisle. Note the inherent fear mongering - TRUMP IS TRYING TO KILL US. https://www.citylab.com/environment/...ppears/518199/
    Damn, I'm so busy today. Working on a Sunday!

    I greatly appreciate the effort you put into the posts and it does give a context in terms of how much better the world is in the west in terms of pollution. Technology is amazing!


    I also don't have the same confirmation bias that says every natural disaster is automatically global warming. The California fire problem, for example, is significantly a land management problem and has been for a long time. They don't clear the underbrush because the same environmentalists who blame everything on global warming also oppose "destroying habitat" that used to be called being a good steward of the land.
    That's fine. as is the thing about mass hysteria. That's interesting, and I think does apply to many things, in particular the stock market and all that sort of stuff. Recession and depression.... it's all about the collective human mind.

    But I'm going to get to my point quickly.
    .Industrial emissions massively cut - nearly eliminated, eliminated ozone depleting chemicals (some question mark there) because "the hole" THE HOLE WAS GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!!
    I think, at least I hope what you're saying is that this disaster was recognised and averted. the entire world put in a massive and costly effort to get rid of nasty fluorocarbons and whatnot.

    I'm at pains to break this to you though..
    the ozone hole is not nearly repaired. And won't be until past the end of the century. Australia's UV levels are highly elevated to this day. Extreme levels most days of summer. Severe burning in a half hour during the middle of the day. that's not an absolute disaster, you just put on sunscreen and be careful. But can you imagine if we just keep pumping out cfcs? that's equivalently what's happening with the CO2 now. C02 production is not only the maximum it has ever been now ...it is going to increase much further!. even with the most conservative assessment, the elevated levels are affecting the world even right now. And the effect and implications of this issue are going to be far far beyond what the ozone level even could be.

    Let's compare notes in 10 years!

    But I still maintain that you and other conservatives like you (not all conservatives are sceptics) will be saying the same stuff until it affects you everyday that you step out the door. it doesn't make your selfish. It's just that, exactly like the pollution issue that you pointed out in your home town, it's all just a bunch of dots and numbers on a computer screen until it affects you when you walk out the door, breathe and move. Peace.
    Last edited by lost in melb.; 02-29-2020 at 11:27 PM.

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  24. #45
    Post-op activist lost in melb.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh One Who Knocks View Post
    Because only the scientists that agree with "The Sky Is Falling" doctrine are telling the truth and ANYONE that questions it or disagrees with it is a literal lying Nazi science denier
    I just don't understand why it needs to be so black-or-white. Scientists have a wide spectrum of projections for the future.

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