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Thread: NHL and other ice hockey discussion

  1. #2071
    Take Box B DemonGeminiX's Avatar
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    You guys might be right in Canada, but down here, RBP's right. The fans who love the game here will just want to see the game. They won't give a shit who's wearing the jerseys, as it's half of the fault of the guys in the jerseys anyway. It was the same thing with the NFL strike back in the 80s... people just wanted to watch the game and they were willing to pay to see the scabs play, even if they weren't the best in the world. That's what forced the NFL players to cross the line, the knowledge that they could be replaced and the fans would still pay to watch. And that included some legends like Joe Montana, John Elway... etc.

    Mark my words, boys. If scabs go to the NHL, people who genuinely love the NHL will pay to watch the scabs play.


    Warning: The posts of this forum member may contain trigger language which may be considered offensive to some.

    Music was better when ugly people were allowed to make it.

  2. #2072
    nobody Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    Ima be famous..
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

  3. #2073
    Basement Dweller Godfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonGeminiX View Post
    You guys might be right in Canada, but down here, RBP's right. The fans who love the game here will just want to see the game. They won't give a shit who's wearing the jerseys, as it's half of the fault of the guys in the jerseys anyway. It was the same thing with the NFL strike back in the 80s... people just wanted to watch the game and they were willing to pay to see the scabs play, even if they weren't the best in the world. That's what forced the NFL players to cross the line, the knowledge that they could be replaced and the fans would still pay to watch. And that included some legends like Joe Montana, John Elway... etc.

    Mark my words, boys. If scabs go to the NHL, people who genuinely love the NHL will pay to watch the scabs play.
    Hell you're right, I'd watch any game where guys are wearing NHL jerseys at this point

    Still, the scabs would be just terrible ... this wouldn't just be the next 700 best players in the world (hell the bottom 100 of the NHL are pretty bad). Players in the KHL, Elite, AHL or even decent ECHL'ers wouldn't show up, they'd have to have settle on a month or two in the NHL being the best their career could have. Today's top pro athletes aren't the NFL'ers of 1987. No more Donal Fuhr and the Oilers doing cocaine after the game. The insane work ethic, diet and training they pour into themselves to be physically and mentally the best is unbelievable. It takes a rare bread to make the show, and whoever tries to fill those boots is going to be visibly much much worse.
    Last edited by Godfather; 10-06-2012 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #2074
    Basement Dweller Godfather's Avatar
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    I dono about Sam but I've been loving the WHL/CHL hockey. These kids are hit and miss from one night to the next but they have a lot of heart and holy shit are the hits huge

  5. #2075
    Crazy Canadian!!! samarchepas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather View Post
    I dono about Sam but I've been loving the WHL/CHL hockey. These kids are hit and miss from one night to the next but they have a lot of heart and holy shit are the hits huge
    Same here (QMJHL...just wish they would call it the East Hockey League instead because they have teams in the New Brunswick)
    But what I'm REALLY looking for right now is the AHL (Starting on October 20th, we get games from the Hamilton Bulldogs, the Habs farm team) And to go back to the whole "replacements" thing...I will probably skip that if it happens (Beer league on Tv? no thanks )

  6. #2076
    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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    Time is running out for NHL owners, players in lockout mess

    By Nicholas J. Cotsonika - Yahoo! Sports


    ANN ARBOR, Mich. -- Imagine the Big Four meeting Friday in Toronto -- NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and his deputy, Bill Daly; NHL Players' Association executive director Don Fehr and his brother, Steve Fehr.

    Now imagine a popsicle sitting in the center of the table. The Big Four's job is to divide it.

    Because the popsicle is already out of the freezer, it is melting steadily, drip by drip, day by day. The faster the Big Four reach an agreement, the more they will have to divide. The longer they take, the less will be left. Eventually, there comes a point where the popsicle won't be a popsicle anymore -- just a pool of goo, a sticky mess.

    The NHL lockout is a textbook bargaining dilemma. Literally. The popsicle metaphor has been used in college textbooks like the one written by Rodney Fort, a professor of sports management at the University of Michigan.

    "How long can the owners wait?" Fort said. "How long can the players wait?"

    Fort's conclusion: not long.

    And not because of the big game at the Big House across campus from his office -- the Winter Classic outdoor showcase, which is supposed to draw a record crowd of 110,000-plus to Michigan Stadium to watch the Detroit Red Wings host the Toronto Maple Leafs on New Year's Day. This is about more than one game, no matter how big.

    We've looked at this before. But in the wake of Thursday's cancellation of the first two weeks of the regular-season schedule, let's do it again from another perspective. Let's ignore the emotion and spin, and let's look at the logic: Fort thinks both the owners and the players have too much to lose -- not just the players -- and the Big Four are too experienced and intelligent to let the popsicle melt too much.

    Yes, Bettman and Daly canceled an entire season in 2004-05, just as the Fehrs wiped out a World Series in 1994 with the Major League Baseball Players Association. But you have to examine the facts at the time in those industries, not just glance at the names involved,and this time the facts suggest to Fort a solution will come sooner rather than later.

    "I still have this fundamental, analytical belief that we could hear them just reach an agreement any day," Fort said with a laugh. "I really have a hard time believing they're actually that very far apart. … I won't be at all surprised [if they reach an agreement] after the weekend, or next weekend."

    Now, Fort means an agreement in principle on the core issues, not a sewn-up CBA, and he allows this could continue as an illogical game of chicken. But he said that a few hours before the news broke of the Big Four's unexpected meeting Friday. And as we've said from the beginning, there doesn't need to be a long lockout.

    Fort's outside, objective analysis bolsters that case. It is what has made this so infuriating so far; it is what could ultimately end it.

    "This one," Fort said, "is so dramatically different from the last."

    This is not 2004-05. Back then, it was simply not in the owners' economic interest to play. It was easy for them to shut down the league. "They actually lost less money than if they had run it," Fort said. It was a battle over the very system -- the owners demanding a salary cap, the players refusing.

    This time, the owners say they need relief from skyrocketing costs, and as many as 18 teams are losing money, according to Forbes magazine. But the fact remains that the NHL has enjoyed seven years of record revenues, and both sides are working within the salary cap system.

    The players are not willing to take the immediate pay cut the owners are demanding -- the major sticking point, at the moment -- but they are willing to take less in the future. They have acknowledged that there are financial issues in some markets, and they have made major concessions worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The more the game grows, the more the owners will benefit.

    We have focused more on the leverage the owners have via the lockout. By one estimate based on the owners' last proposal, if the players miss just eight games, they will be taking the pay cut they are refusing to take. Bettman has said: "Even a brief lockout will cost more in terms of lost salary and wages than what we're proposing."

    But while the players can't win, in a sense, they have some leverage in terms of getting a deal done. The players' concessions, in a way, add to the pressure on the owners.

    "The owners actually have a prize," Fort said. "It might not be exactly the prize they want, but there is a prize. The players have offered them something, and they're paying a price while they wait.

    "The basics of it are pretty straightforward: The NHL has to weigh what they demand versus what they're offered."

    Ideally,you would split the popsicle 50-50 before even taking it out of the freezer. Everyone knows what is fair on a basic level, and letting the thing melt even a little just isn't worth the fight.

    Obviously, this situation isn't that simple. The owners and players entered with different bargaining positions (not to mention a lot of baggage), and they have different points of diminishing returns. The key is determining what those points are.

    "Somewhere out there is the right time for everybody to just go, 'This isn't worth it to us anymore,' " Fort said. "I think what is really interesting here is that certainly both sides know this, and certainly Mr. Fehr knows this."

    Is this why the NHLPA has been insisting on guaranteed money -- 2 percent, 4 percent and 6 percent raises over the next three years, compounded -- instead of negotiating on a percentage basis? Is this partly a lockout deterrent? If the owners must depend on growth to realize their gains from the offer, why would they screw up that growth?

    "I suspect the way [the players have] structured their offer into the future, they've driven the owners as close as they possibly can to being indifferent about the owner position and the player position," Fort said.

    "They're not, but Fehr has done his best to make sure it's as close as it could possibly be, so the amount of time that goes by before they both finally just say, 'Look, let's call it a day,' is going to be as short as possible."

    The odds are increasing that this could go long. The rhetoric has sharpened, and trenches have deepened.

    This could unravel the wrong way.

    "We all know what happens when you play games of chicken," Fort said. "We've now entered into a realm where, whether it's small or large, there is some probability that through no real intent of either side you get to the end. … Sometimes they lead to a tragic consequence."

    But the odds still favor a season, some kind of season. That the Big Four met quietly Friday -- with no public posturing -- was a good sign. If there is going to be progress, it's probably going to start there. If they can figure out a way to let the players keep what they have now but split the popsicle about 50-50 in the future, it should lead to a deal.

    They should have done it already. They didn't. But at least from a detached, analytical perspective, they should before it's really too late.

    "Because they now know that everybody's losing money when the season doesn't go on, they're actually very close together," Fort said. "I don't think they're that far apart. I really don't. I mean, I can't do that calculation, but my fundamental belief in the quality of the minds that are at the NHL office and with the players … the chance that they're screwing up fundamentally in how to divvy up this pie seems farfetched to me."

    We'll see. For now, the popsicle is still melting, and the heat is on.

  7. #2077
    Basement Dweller Godfather's Avatar
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    Kinda optimistic eh

  8. #2078
    Crazy Canadian!!! samarchepas's Avatar
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    What REALLY pisses me off here...Bettman (Don't know for Fehr, should be around the same thing)...is getting 8M$ a year to negotiate contracts BUT no talks until Wednesday...That mess won't fix itself!! Normally when you don't do what you are supposed to do at a job...you get fired. (Still hoping it gets fixed by December/January)

  9. #2079
    Basement Dweller Godfather's Avatar
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    You guys know what the agenda was for NHL - NHLPA talks today!?

    ....improving ice conditions.

  10. #2080
    Mr Magoo RBP's Avatar
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    fuck em
    I wanted to be a Monk, but I never got the chants.

  11. #2081
    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather View Post
    You guys know what the agenda was for NHL - NHLPA talks today!?

    ....improving ice conditions.
    You can't play ice hockey without ice

  12. #2082
    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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    Why cracks in NHL ownership don’t matter

    By Greg Wyshynski | Puck Daddy




    Over the last several months, the NHL players and their proxies (agents, media) have railed against the League for silencing its owners during the lockout.

    The prevailing wisdom: That sans muzzle (i.e. the threat of a Devellano-esque fine), a group of maverick owners opposed to the work stoppage would break ranks and exert public pressure on Gary Bettman (i.e. the man they pay to stop work) to end the lockout.

    The latest example from these protectors of the first amendment: Dan Boyle of the San Jose Sharks. As he told CSN Bay Area:

    "I think when players make comments, sometimes it's directed towards 30 owners, but I think a lot of us feel that it's not across the board. It's a certain group of teams that are controlling 30 others," Boyle said.

    "It doesn't make any sense to me that eight teams can control the fate of 22 other ones."


    Bruce Garrioch of the Ottawa Sun carried the meme through to his Sunday column:

    The owners got "cost-certainty" through a cap the last time we were in this situation. It wouldn't seem it is worth losing a season this time, since the framework is there to put a deal in place.

    The insider with knowledge of the bargaining suggested Bettman has the support from the board of governors and those who don't like the idea of the lockout are sitting silent to see if the NHL can get the union to bend.

    "The dissenters are being quiet and waiting to see how far (Bettman) can (make) Fehr go," he said. The dissenters have no choice. Speaking out could mean a fine of up to $1 million and a loss of draft choices.


    There are a few reasons why the players and their agents are hung up on the owner solidarity thing, which smacks of desperation and denial of reality.

    Fear Of Their Own Solidarity

    After the NHLPA cracked like a wine glass on a brick wall back in 2005, the players have gone out of their way to declare solidarity in this round of CBA talks. It was one of the primary motivations for bringing Donald Fehr in to lead the union, right behind his ability to make Gary Bettman seem like the second-smartest man in the room.

    And so it is that the NHLPA members tweet the same messages and fly off to Europe en masse and start predicting they'll go the distance on the lockout and take their little jabs at Bettman. But the underlying truth of it all is that there's a much better chance that 740 members of the NHLPA — of different economic and experience standings — will fracture well before 30 owners will.

    As Chris Botta tweeted:



    It's a race to the breaking point, and the players know that their opponents have an advantage in their numbers and in Bettman being the one holding the leash on his owners.

    Preconceptions of Motivation

    As Reusch wrote recently, there's every reason to believe that Geoff Molson doesn't want the Montreal Canadiens locked out. The same thing goes for other teams that print their own money (the New York Rangers) or that would like to capitalize on the NHL's surging popularity (the Los Angeles Kings).

    The tricky part is that every owner has dueling motivations in this negotiation.

    Yes, it's obvious that a team like the Nashville Predators would like to get back on the ice and continue building momentum in their market. It's also obvious they'd benefit from reduced player costs and stronger revenue sharing, which will only arrive through the lockout.

    Yes, it's easy to assume an owner like Terry Pegula that's worked the current system, and isn't exactly hurting for money, would rather his Buffalo Sabres challenge for the Stanley Cup than have them locked out. Yet if the Sabres, say, ever started their own local sports network, perhaps they'd like the financial solvency to cover losses. Or perhaps they don't really want to be the team that hands out a massive second contract like the one given to Tyler Myers when the franchise lost money in five of six NHL seasons between '05-'06 to '10-'11.

    Same goes for every owner that makes a ton of money at the gate but sees it fly out the window to players making 57 percent of it; and every owner that's seen his ancillary costs rise as the players' share has grown.

    Bottom line: While none of this is a reason to kill another season, let's not pretend that even the wealthiest and most altruistic among NHL owners isn't looking to knock down the players' share.

    It's The Logo On The Front

    Please recall Dan Boyle's words:

    "It doesn't make any sense to me that eight teams can control the fate of 22 other ones."


    It doesn't? Here, lemme help:



    These are the total appearances for NHL teams on the NBC/NBCSN schedule for 2012-13, which has pretty much gone the way of Crystal Pepsi and the PT Cruiser thanks to the schedule cancellation.

    As you can see, there are 10 teams that are featured more than 10 times combined on the networks. For NBC, there only five teams featured three or more times: Jeremy Jacobs' Boston Bruins, Rocky Wirtz's Chicago Blackhawks, Mike Illitch's Detroit Red Wings, Ed Snider's Philadelphia Flyers and Mario Lemieux's Pittsburgh Penguins.

    So yes, it makes sense that about eight teams can control the fate of 22 others because they're the only ones worth a damn from an American television perspective.

    That $3.3 billion in revenue generated last year? You seriously don't believe that's the byproduct of having Original Six teams in four of the last five Cup Finals, along with the Penguins (twice) and the Flyers? Or Original Six teams and/or Sidney Crosby in every Winter Classic?

    Again, the truth of matter: It's a team-driven league that has at most four players that actually drive gate — Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, Steven Stamkos (potentially) and Jaromir Jagr (at least in the Dallas Stars' eyes). Otherwise, fans are paying and tuning in to see the logo on the front.

    So it makes perfect sense that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many in ownership, because in the end they're the ones carrying the torch for the League's popularity and sharing their wealth with the weaker franchises.

    Which is why you and I have never been invited to sleep over the Lincoln bedroom, to draw a political parallel.

    Finally …

    Talk To Us When You Learn Your Owner's Name

    Granted, there are 11 names on the Sharks' ownership board, but Boyle surely knows about Sharks Sports and Entertainment. They're the ones claiming a $15 million loss last season despite 41 sell outs. They're also the ones that sign Boyle's checks.

    No one's expecting Boyle or his peers to trash their employers with the same vicious fervor as they would Bettman. But is it too much to ask for a guy like Boyle to name names? To tell us where he thinks his owners stand? To explain which teams he believes are all-in for a lockout and which ones are along for the ride?

    In reality, it's the only way to really put the screws to the owners: To have their own players call them out to paying customers by name as the real enemy.

    Think it'll happen? Of course not.

    Otherwise, it's just hopeful speculation. That these owners aren't more concerned about a Canadian television windfall in a few years than they are about winning a Stanley Cup. That "man of the people" owners like Terry Pegula, Mario Lemieux and Ted Leonsis don't actually support Bettman in his work stoppage, when they have every motivation to guarantee profit and cut player costs.

    Ask yourself this question: Is there a greater percentage of owners or players that want to get back on NHL ice tomorrow? Who cracks first?

  13. #2083
    Basement Dweller Godfather's Avatar
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    Interesting article

  14. #2084
    Crazy Canadian!!! samarchepas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather View Post
    You guys know what the agenda was for NHL - NHLPA talks today!?

    ....improving ice conditions.
    Until they talk about the financial part of the CBA...ain't going anywhere (I don't think that ice condition caused the lock-out, did it? )

  15. #2085
    Basement Dweller Godfather's Avatar
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    Thus my facepalm Fucking idiots might as just be sitting around talking about The Bachelor, they're so far off the important things...

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