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  1. #2776
    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    I believe in free markets with guard rails. Corporate greed run amock is disastrous. We have OSHA, ERISA, and Labor Laws, for a reason. Now we can argue to what extent they should wield power, but it's hard to argue for no guard rails.
    And I have no problem with OSHA or the EEOC or Labor Laws or anything like that. But you can't have the government dictating that a company MUST pay someone $15/hour to push buttons with pictures on them at a POS fast food restaurant. Because when you do that, you get what's happening now, more automation and less jobs available for the less than skilled/unskilled. You know what's worse than making $10/hour at an unskilled position? Making $0/hour because McDonalds went with kiosks for you to order your food. Or Walmart invests in robot janitors eliminating those unskilled jobs from the labor market.

    At that point of mandating a ridiculous minimum wage, you might as well just roll out the universal guaranteed income and have the government just start cutting checks to everyone. It's not like there aren't opportunities out there, there are shortages of people that can work in the skilled trades and those jobs usually pay well. But people have gotten lazy under 8 years of Obama and don't want to work. They want the government handouts. And if they do go out and work, they want to be vastly overpaid for the position they have because 'they deserve it'.

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  3. #2777
    Mr Magoo RBP's Avatar
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    I hear you. I am just not sure how to fix it. House of cards, corporations minimizing "employees" in favor of "contractors", traditional employer benefit costs shifting to consumers, consumer debt exploding again, student loan dept nearly to a default level, lending companies increasing predation, mortgage lenders are back to ill-advised loose standards because people can't qualify.

    Something's going to give again.
    I wanted to be a Monk, but I never got the chants.

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  5. #2778
    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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    On that we agree 100%, something has got to give and I don't know what it will be either and don't know how to fix it.

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  7. #2779
    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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  10. #2781
    Shelter Dweller lost in melb.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh One Who Knocks View Post
    And I have no problem with OSHA or the EEOC or Labor Laws or anything like that. But you can't have the government dictating that a company MUST pay someone $15/hour to push buttons with pictures on them at a POS fast food restaurant. Because when you do that, you get what's happening now, more automation and less jobs available for the less than skilled/unskilled. You know what's worse than making $10/hour at an unskilled position? Making $0/hour because McDonalds went with kiosks for you to order your food. Or Walmart invests in robot janitors eliminating those unskilled jobs from the labor market.

    At that point of mandating a ridiculous minimum wage, you might as well just roll out the universal guaranteed income and have the government just start cutting checks to everyone. It's not like there aren't opportunities out there, there are shortages of people that can work in the skilled trades and those jobs usually pay well. But people have gotten lazy under 8 years of Obama and don't want to work. They want the government handouts. And if they do go out and work, they want to be vastly overpaid for the position they have because 'they deserve it'.
    Yes, but you need to make sure people can survive on 10 bucks an hour otherwise how does this system work?

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  12. #2782
    Mr Magoo RBP's Avatar
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    Do you have a minimum wage, Lost?

    I'll have to look it up again, but if ours had been set to index inflation, it would be pretty high now.
    I wanted to be a Monk, but I never got the chants.

  13. #2783
    Shelter Dweller lost in melb.'s Avatar
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    Ours is about 18 an hour. Our country has mostly free healthcare. Despite this it is still difficult to live on minimum wage, but certainly above poverty line.

    It is certain cheaper to manufacture in the US, but I wonder if your min wage workforce is virtually non productive and more stressed due to burnout. I.e is the cheaper labor worth the trouble?
    Last edited by lost in melb.; 12-11-2018 at 08:05 AM.

  14. #2784
    Mr Magoo RBP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lost in melb. View Post
    Ours is about 18 an hour. Our country has mostly free healthcare. Despite this it is still difficult to live on minimum wage, but certainly above poverty line.

    It is certain cheaper to manufacture in the US, but I wonder if your min wage workforce is virtually non productive and more stressed due to burnout. I.e is the cheaper labor worth the trouble?
    So $13 USD. Chicago is at that level. And I am not sure about the stress. People tend to frame this argument as though people are living off that, and while true in some cases, it is largely comprised of part timers and students.
    I wanted to be a Monk, but I never got the chants.

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    Hal killed Tormund! Pony's Avatar
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    Just gonna drop this here...

    A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the St. Lawrence River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile .
    The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people paddling and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people paddling.Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
    They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were paddling.Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the paddling team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
    They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people paddling the boat greater incentive to work harder . It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program, with meetings, dinners and free pens for the paddlers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices , and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.
    The next year the Japanese won by two miles.Humiliated, the American management laid off one paddler, halted development of a new canoe , sold all the paddles, and cancelled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.
    The next year, try as he might, the lone designated paddler was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles), so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

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  18. #2786
    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lost in melb. View Post
    Yes, but you need to make sure people can survive on 10 bucks an hour otherwise how does this system work?
    Quote Originally Posted by RBP View Post
    So $13 USD. Chicago is at that level. And I am not sure about the stress. People tend to frame this argument as though people are living off that, and while true in some cases, it is largely comprised of part timers and students.
    Exactly. Minimum wage was never meant for someone to 'live on' or to raise a family on. You are/were expected to better yourself. Learn a skill/trade or go to school and get an education and get a decent paying job. I work in a small machine shop, family owned business and the lowest wage for a machinist right now that we are paying is $22.50/hour ($46,800/year). Because it's a useful skill and it's worth paying for. Minimum wage was meant for part time people trying to maybe supplement their income. For high school/college students working part time. For retired people supplementing their SS income. It was never intended to be used to live on.

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    #DeSantis2024 Teh One Who Knocks's Avatar
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  24. #2789
    21-Jazz hands salute Muddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh One Who Knocks View Post
    Exactly. Minimum wage was never meant for someone to 'live on' or to raise a family on. You are/were expected to better yourself. Learn a skill/trade or go to school and get an education and get a decent paying job. I work in a small machine shop, family owned business and the lowest wage for a machinist right now that we are paying is $22.50/hour ($46,800/year). Because it's a useful skill and it's worth paying for. Minimum wage was meant for part time people trying to maybe supplement their income. For high school/college students working part time. For retired people supplementing their SS income. It was never intended to be used to live on.
    Yeah but the problem is 75% of the "jobs" out there now are minimum wage.. We have successfully exported 80% of the manufacturing jobs out of the country where people did have something they could invest their lives in.. Sure, people have the freedom to not work somewhere, but at the end of the day if you have no other choice then thats what you do.. Go in and take it up the ass for slave wages to just earn something.. Compensation has not increased with inflation. (anyway, I kinda hit on 2 things here, but you know what I mean, minimum wage jobs are the new normal jobs for the bigger population of this country..)
    Last edited by Muddy; 12-11-2018 at 03:34 PM.

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  26. #2790
    Mr Magoo RBP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Yeah but the problem is 75% of the "jobs" out there now are minimum wage.. We have successfully exported 80% of the manufacturing jobs out of the country where people did have something they could invest their lives in.. Sure, people have the freedom to not work somewhere, but at the end of the day if you have no other choice then thats what you do.. Go in and take it up the ass for slave wages to just earn something.. Compensation has not increased with inflation. (anyway, I kinda hit on 2 things here, but you know what I mean, minimum wage jobs are the new normal jobs for the bigger population of this country..)
    If it's a job at all. The trend is to have much smaller core staff and structure everyone else as "contractors". I am not sure how it's legal and there are starting to be challenges. The other trend that is getting challenged is mandatory arbitration. Firms require you sign an arbitration agreement before they will give you the job. That way, they can do what ever they want because you have preemptively waived your right to sue.

    There a lot of things I see that indicate we could see a rise in labor protests. The problem is the companies keep it so fragmented that it's hard to get a collective movement, made worse by your point that everyone is scared to death to lose the job.
    I wanted to be a Monk, but I never got the chants.

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